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[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The last time it took an entire fleet to defeat a Reaper and that fleet was pulverized in the process. Sovereign alone defeated how many ships? More than a dozen at least? The 5th fleet was losing ships fast enough that they wanted to pull away and retreat, and that was up against just one Reaper.

What if we had to fight two Reapers at once? Three? Four? A dozen? Hundreds?

We can't afford a kill to death ratio like this. The only hope of survival is to even the odds. Even getting the numbers down so that one dreadnought can take on a Reaper still leaves us at a disadvantage.

Then there is indoctrination. We don't even know its full capabilities or what it actually is. Can it be blocked? Reversed? Detected? To answer those questions we have to study it and the Collector base provides the best opportunity. If the base was building a Reaper then there is a good chance the schematics and/or materials for an indoctrination device are present. We need to find it and study it now while the Reapers aren't breathing down our necks. Otherwise it might be too late.

The Collectors were being controlled by the Reapers... there will be no 'schematics' (or at least there shouldn't be) as the Collectors are not doing any planning or thinking themselves.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Redgoon23 wrote...
Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

Well, the Illusive Man did risk his 4-billion credit prize in order to recruit "Archangel", who has reported as being a Turian. And it was essentially Cerberus that helped heal Garrus from his near-fatal wounds after the fight with Tazik's gunship. And then the Illusive Man went out of his way to cover Garrus from legal prosecution after Garrus went on a revenge-rampage on the Citadel.

[Kingthlayer]

Redgoon23 wrote...

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

You would hand a base over to people who stabbed you in the back rather then give it to the man who saved your life?  If you gave the collector base to the council they would pretend it doesn't exist, they're doing nothing at all to save the galaxy.  TIM and Cerberus are, just because they're the only people who have their dirty laundry hanging out in the games doesn't meant they're the only people who can't wash clothes.

No way the council would act like it didn't exist if you handed over a ship the size of the collecter base. The Citadel races would use it to better all of the races. Humans, Turians, Asari, and Salarians etc. Cerberus would use it to dominate the other races.

Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

The council races pretend the Reapers don't exist even after one attacked them head on, and if their was two of them, it would have been lights out.  And if the council races truly felt it was Geth then they should have attacked the Geth and took them out, but they didn't because they're useless.

People shout all this racist bull**** to Cerberus but don't look at the Alliance.  The Alliance broke up the orginal Normandy crew after Shepard died because the aliens on it(according to Joker).  The admiral that you see when you come back from your first mission is not only against having aliens on the ship but having the Normandy in the hands of the council.  But yet Cerberus are the racist ones.  TIM the guy who personally gave you a list of people to recruit where 50% or so are aliens, is racist and wants to kill all aliens.

I think before you look at TIM bringing back a Turian or Asari, you have to look at the races in general.  Would the Turians let their biggest hero waste away on a planet, would the Asari?  I doubt it.  If Tela Vasir was the one in charge of bringing down Saren and then went missing on some bull**** mission, the Asari would have found her corpse and given it the respect she deserves.  Not like the Alliance who just said **** Shepard and his crew.

[Dean_the_Young]

nevar00 wrote...

The Collectors were being controlled by the Reapers... there will be no 'schematics' (or at least there shouldn't be) as the Collectors are not doing any planning or thinking themselves.

There would be no schematics for the same reason there would be no data storage and computers.

The Collectors freely use data storage and computers.


Each individual Collector is not Reaper-controlled, only the Collector General.

[Pwener2313]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Even without schematics the hardware and materials are present. That is better than nothing. We can experiment with the machinery to see what it does.

^CAUSE

EFFECT....

[nevar00]

Not really... at all. They were there to study the Reaper. All they ended up doing was to make acquiring the IFF much more difficult then it needed to be.

I concede the point about the schematics, although it looked like the computers blew up anyway regardless of how you took care of the base. Still, I find it hard to believe that being able to build a Reaper is really going to help... at all, especially since they're supposed to be so ridiculously more advanced. I can't imagine finding anything there that would help us in time, and seeing as I'd rather not give a klutzy narcissistic something that would most likely result in him creating a mess that I'd have to get everyone out of, I'd rather take it out. That time can be spent in better ways, like trying to get others prepared for the Reaper invasion. One miniature organization that can't get even simple jobs accomplished without everyone dying isn't exactly a very useful ally.

[Pwener2313]

Irony tells me that keeping the base lands you a bonus heavy weapon in ME3 that can kill a Reaper in one hit.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Reaper IFF wasn't exactly sitting out on a Cerbuer-imported table in the middle of a Cerberus-installed airlock before Cerberus even arrived, you know. So unless you intend for Shepard to spend an extended amount of time exploring, investigating, and working through the Reapers, a time suitable for indoctrination...

[nevar00]

It couldn't have taken that long: Reapers may be big but they aren't THAT big.

And hey, you could have gotten in and out without a thousand husks and scions attacking you.

[Pwener2313]

It just shows that Cerberus knows they're stuff.

[Rawke]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...
Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

Well, the Illusive Man did risk his 4-billion credit prize in order to recruit "Archangel", who has reported as being a Turian. And it was essentially Cerberus that helped heal Garrus from his near-fatal wounds after the fight with Tazik's gunship. And then the Illusive Man went out of his way to cover Garrus from legal prosecution after Garrus went on a revenge-rampage on the Citadel.

He would have covered the citadel-story up on way or another. If he had refused, Shepard would probably have gone Spectre on C-Secs ass (ah, I forgot, Renegades tell the council to **** off), or TIM would have been forced to cover it up anyway in order to keep Shep happy. Also, Garrus was fixed by Chakwas, not Cerberus. She isn't exactly the alien-hating type. Most of the crew seems to have joined Cerberus (like most squadmates) because they knew they'd work with Shepard. Their loyalty lies with Shepard, not Cerberus. Even our favourite Cerberus-fangirl Miranda resigns (if you blow the base to hell). A paragon uses TIM as long as he's useful. A renegade gets used by TIM.

Of course TIM knows that the Reapers are the current threat (which is why he doesn't object to recruiting aliens, though he may also be trying to play Shepard by pretending he actually cares about other sentient beings). But he also wants to establish humanity as the dominant force in the galaxy. With him as the leader, I'd assume. Also, the atrocity called "Project Overlord" should tell you enough about Cerberus. Imagine what they might do with a base full of alien tech just waiting to be used on some human lab rat. Sorry, but that's not worth it.

[Smeelia]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The rachni offer no critically useful benefits. Releasing the queen is the opposite of being practical. The queen is simply adding an extra variable.

The Rachni have a natural acid type attack that penetrates kinetic barriers, we don't know about their technology (it may be different to what current races use) and we do know that they learn to use new technology fairly quickly (which would make them useful in studying the Reapers if they were to co-operate with us).  The Rachni may well turn out to be a threat but they could also provide a great benefit to our fight against the Reapers so neither choice is guaranteed to be better than the other.  Losing a potential ally is no less practical than killing a potential threat.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The base however, as I explained, offers the chance to study our enemy. You clearly are afraid of indoctrination. I ask you, what are you plans in the future when the Reapers are indoctrinating people and turning them on you? You will not be be able to hide from Reaper tech once the Reapers arrive. If you want to find a way to defeat the danger of indoctrination then you need to study it under controlled circumstances. The Collector base offers this possibility.

Would you rather try to study indoctrination (and other Reaper tech) while the Reapers are invading or would you rather study it now when the galaxy is not at war?

You are not looking at this logically.

I'd just like to point out that I was saying neither option is absolutely better, the fact that you're assuming we can overcome indoctrination shows that you're not looking at this logically (so far every attempt to overcome indoctrination, from Saren to Cerberus, has resulted in absolute failure and the creation of more problems).  It's possible that we might be able to gain something from researching the base but it's not guaranteed.  It's also possible that the base could have traps on it to prevent anyone studying it and make sure it works in the Reapers' favour if they try but again there's no guarantee.

We do know that the Reapers manipulate the technological development of races and leave traps to prevent them from investigating too heavily into some of the more complex techs so there's evidence that keeping the collector base could be dangerous, it isn't a blind assumption.  Still, the Thanix cannon is proof that positive results can come from researching Reaper technology so it's not totally unreasonable to think there might be benefits to keeping the base.  Basically both options have potential risks and benefits and there's no way to be sure how it'll turn out so you can only make your best guess.

Saphra Deden wrote...

I can take logical steps to reduce the number of variables. If you destroy the base you are hinging your bet on some kind of dues ex machina to come and save you. You are relying on hope. That is not smart.

It's no less relying on hope to keep the base and hope that it isn't trapped and that results of research will be sufficient to destroy the Reapers.  It might turn out that the base just makes things worse, it might turn out that you save the galaxy with what you find there, it might turn out to be safe enough but without any useful new information/technology or it might turn out that you find another way to destroy the Reapers regardless of the base.  We can't know in advance and there's definately evidence for both sides.

It's fair enough to have a preference but both options have positives in their favour, that's why I like decisions like this because there's no right or wrong answer.  Even if things turn out a particular way, if you made your decision based on available information then it wasn't wrong of you to do so because things could just as easily have gone the other way (and it's someone else's decision that creates the final outcome).  The fact that both sides have valid points shows that it's a complex and well made choice for players to make.

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
.
It couldn't have taken that long: Reapers may be big but they aren't THAT big.

Actually they are pretty big and I doubt they are designed so that curious scientists can pick through them and remove vital bits. The Cerberus team wouldn't even know where to start.

We're lucky it didn't take them years to find that thing.

Yes I suppose that's true.

But then the case is most likely the same for the Collector Base.

I'm not saying it's stupid to destroy the base, I just wish there was an option to give it to someone other than Cerberus.  And I really don't think anything too useful is going to come out of there that won't simply be used to give Cerberus some sort of edge over everyone else (not taking about the Reapers here).  

And yet again, I go back to Cerberus's track record: it's terrible, to say the least.  You can brush it off by saying they're dangerous tasks or whatever, but the point is they screw up almost all the time.

[nevar00]

I don't think it will offer anything that would be useful against the Reapers (obviously this is talking as if I was Shepard: most likely those who saved the base will get something out of it due to otherwise it being pretty anti-climatic).

I didn't say they wouldn't get anything of value from it.

[Corpsetorn]

I destroyed it. I supposedly have the Rachni, the Migrant Fleet, and the Geth on my side, and I'm loved by the rest of the galaxy, I think my odds are pretty good without the base, just not worth the risk of ending up having to stop Cerberus after the reapers are gone. No matter how you look at it, there are going to be heavy casualties in the upcoming war, with the damage done, taking down Cerberus while they command reaper technology would be almost unfeasible. That and lord knows the Illusive Man is very capable of deciding to resurrect the reapers under human conditions.

[Smeelia]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You know what else penetrates kinetic barriers? My fist. Kinetic barriers only deflect high speed objects, things like bullets. Rachni acid attacks move too slowly. That is not an asset. It is not unique to them. It isn't worth destroying an entire colony.

Which colony gets destroyed? If the Rachni work with you then you get a new ally with no losses, just because you don't think that'll happen doesn't mean it wont (just as thinking it will happen doesn't mean it will).  You seem keen to look for new technology but seem to only be interested in Reaper tech, there are other possibilities (even Cerberus was studying the Rachni, Thorian Creepers and so on).

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'm not assuming anything. I am identifying a problem and taking steps to try and counter it. If the Collector base provides no great benefits then "oh well". At least we tried instead of just blowing it up.

What if the base indoctrinates the crew and lets them finish creating the new Reaper? That's going to add to our problems and isn't something we can just say "oh well" about.  There are risks in keeping the base and those vanish if we destroy it.  You're assuming that the outcome of your "logical" decision will be positive because you're not taking into account other possibilities (for which there is evidence).

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, I am not "hoping" the base isn't trapped. I'm also not "hoping" there are golden cows and money-trees in the base. What I am doing is taking precautions and taking steps to defeat my foe. If there are traps we can counter them. Though considering the base didn't even have proper defenses once the cruiser was destroyed I rather doubt the base is one considerable trap.

Maybe it was easy because it was a trap in the first place.  You're hoping we can counter any traps but so far Reaper traps have been fairly successful at working against us, we only escaped the Citadel trap because of the Protheans and we only found out about the Reapers because the Protheans left messages, a lot of attempts to research Reaper technology have resulted in indoctrination and we pretty much only have the tech that the Reapers left for us to get.  Researching non-Reaper technologies and trying to get away from relying on Reaper tech would make a lot of sense.

Saphra Deden wrote...

YOU are the one who is hoping for the best, I am not. I am actively working towards a better outcome. It is much better to study the base and try to work with the opportunities presented to us than it is to blow it up and hope we dodged a bullet and that some other convenient solution will present itself.

You're not understanding my position because I did mention that both choices are valid, you're not wrong to keep the base but you're wrong to suggest that it's definately the right answer because there's evidence in favour of both choices and not enough against either to make one "right".  Destroying the base is destroying a potential threat (while keeping it away from a potentially dangerous organisation) and that's just as much working towards a better outcome as keeping it in the hope it can provide something useful, either way you're making your best guess on the available evidence at the time.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

The Collectors were being controlled by the Reapers... there will be no 'schematics' (or at least there shouldn't be) as the Collectors are not doing any planning or thinking themselves.

There would be no schematics for the same reason there would be no data storage and computers.

The Collectors freely use data storage and computers.


Each individual Collector is not Reaper-controlled, only the Collector General.

And the room where the information was most likely stored was consumed by a huge fireball in both endings.

[brightblueink]

On my main playthrough, I had my Paragon character destroy the base. However, I didn't choose that just because it was a Paragon option, but I had a roleplaying reason.

In the first game, I pretty much stuck with pure Paragon, because that's the side I naturally gravitate to. Anytime a game gives me a choice, I'd much rather be more diplomatic and talk my way out of fights, so it's a pretty simple choice for me. That being said, when it game to the Virmire decision, I went into it knowing I was going to save Kaidan over Ashley because Kaidan was my favorite character in the first game and I disliked Ashley. But I wanted to make a reason why my character would choose that...so I decided that it was actually a kneejerk, emotional reaction based on not wanting her love interest to die. I decided that since she was also a Colonist/Sole Survivor, this would probably be something of a last straw for her psychologically, and she'd start to have a serious reaction to having ANYONE she considered close to her dying and would stop it at any costs, which allowed her to occasionally drift to Renegade decisions. She still saved the Council (because she logically knew that the Council dying would likely cause a political crisis), but that was pretty much the last time she willingly put someone she cared about in danger when there was another choice she could make.

So we come to ME2. My Shep, Paragon though she may be, is still very willing to stab a power drill into a merc's back and toss another one out a window if she's pissed off enough or convinced that it will save her crew. She's also been rejected by the man she first made a concession for in the first place when she saved his life. On top of this, TIM is the man behind the massacre on Akuze, one of the events in her life that's given her this "my crew at (nearly) any cost" mentality, and she's immediately distrusted him from the very start.

So in the end, TIM tells her she has two options: blow up the Collector base, or give it to him. This is a base where she almost lost people like Kelly and Dr. Chakwas when they were captured. Kaidan himself was nearly captured by them on Horizon, and if he had been, she'd likely arrive in time to see HIM chewed down to paste. Although she's made it through incredible odds in the collector base, she's already nearly lost several people (and will soon discovered she lost Mordin, something of a mentor to her). And to top it off? She has a personal vendetta against TIM. She blew it up not because it was the "logical" choice, but because she didn't dare want that place to have a chance to hurt anyone she cared about AND she wanted to spite TIM and him demanding that dangerous piece of technology so he could do who knows what with it was the last straw.

tl;dr: My Shep blew up the base out of spite to both the Collectors and TIM, not simply because it was logical.

I'm definitely going to keep it on my next playthrough. I don't think either choice is necessarily "right", and I'm hoping it'll play out to have both pluses and minuses for either choice. I don't think Paragon and Renegade are "good" and "evil", even if I generally dislike the way Renegades (ICly) go about their choices. I think TV Tropes has gotten this one right--the system is more "Idealism" VS "Cynicism", and maybe a dash of "Diplomacy" VS "getting the job done at all costs." It's not that Renegades are evil--they're sort of jerks, but they typically still do what they believe is right and will ultimately save the galaxy overall. They're just far more likely to allow civilian deaths and assume the worst about other alien species, partially because they don't believe that the Paragon way of things WOULD actually work.