339 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Abbbe wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Abbbe wrote...

One thing I'd really like to hear from a Bioware developer is the removal of in-game characters asking for real money in order to embark on their quest like in DAO. I think that's almost morally reprehensible.

You seriously can't be talking about shale.

I'm talking about the quest giver for Warden's Keep, and the later patched-in quest giver for King Cailan's armor.

The latter encounter plays out like this:
You find a dying emissary of the King ambushed in an unknown forest, your options are to either let the man agonize or get out your wallet and credit card.

Wardens keep was nothing more then 2 huge discount merchants that sold items you could get in game even without the dlc and a party storage which does qualify in my book as extra so yeah if they wanted to charge for that I have no problem

Ostagar on the other hand was important to a Huge part of the story and I feel it was pretty crappy to actually charge for that.


@Coldbringer well they did show effort atleast 

[Dubya75]

The arguments people come up with on this thread - HILLARIOUS!

[Abbbe]

LPPrince, in order for us to have a sensible argument you need to understand that the fast food industry or the automotive industry have nothing to do with the video games industry. For one, the idea of big video game releases primarily as a platform for further content is a relatively new one,
some companies are able to adapt to this model whitout alienating their player base. Blizzard for example release free mods and content for starcraft 2 while developing bigger paying expansions further down the line.
What Jhon Walker points out in his article is that in this case, regardless of how the optional content is developed it is perceived by average costumers as an act of greed. Many independant gaming sites have picked up on this, it's no surprise Giantbomb published the new trailer under the header "The Exiled Prince wants you (to spend 7$)".
There are ways to make this business model work whitout tarnishing the company's image for z large amount of customers.

[ColdbringeR]

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

This is a poor analogy as well. Since "pie" by definition does not include ice cream, the ice cream is inherently extra. Dragon Age 2, on the other hand, cannot be defined so easily as pie. Something that is "extra" could simply be game content that was omitted in order to be advertised as "extra". Because we, the consumers, have no way to differentiate regular game content from extra game content, perhaps DLCs available at release are not a considerate technique for selling "extra" content to consumers.

Does the manufacturer state it is the complete game : yes. Can you play the complete game without DLC : yes. The manufacturer sells a completed product. Product may come with extras..

That's a fairly common selling model. Cars have been doing it for years. This model has air-con, internal navigation etc, this  model doesn't and is cheaper. Doesn't matter if the original car spec internal to the company has air-con in it and it was removed later. They do not sell the "base car" with it, it's an extra. If they tried to sell the base car as a car with no steering wheel however I think we all would have a right to complain. This isn't the case with DLC.

Edit: The way extra DLC was marketed in DAO was very tacky although it seens to work in F2P MMO's. Probably why I don't play those.

These analogies aren't getting any better. So which part of the "car" is this DLC? Is it the internal navigation perhaps? What if it's the air conditioning? I mean, a car still functions properly without it, it's just less pleasant to use, much like the DLC. Do car dealers charge "extra" for AC these days? I'm pretty sure most don't. Or what if it's the trunk? We don't need a trunk, do we? Perhaps car dealers should all charge extra for trunks too.

The point is, the DA2 DLC does not directly correspond to anything in your car analogy. As such, it's not a relevant analogy.

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[ColdbringeR]

LPPrince wrote...

Lets use an analogy, shall we?

Go to McDonald's. See the Big Mac? Delicious burger(to me, at least).

Lets say its $3.50.

Then, you've got the Big Mac Meal. Medium Fries and a Drink for lets say $5.

You can choose to get just the sandwich, or you can choose to get the meal.

The fries and the drink are OPTIONAL. They do not make up part of a Big Mac, and ordering a Big Mac does not mean you have an incomplete meal as the Big Mac is the CORE of the product.

Lets compare-


Go to a video game retailer. See Dragon Age 2? Great game(lets assume).

Lets say its $59.99.

Then, you've got The Exiled Prince DLC. A DLC purchased online for lets say $7.

You can choose to get just the game, or you can choose to get the game along with the DLC.

The DLC is OPTIONAL. IT does not make up part of the main game, and purchasing Dragon Age 2 does not mean you have an incomplete game as Dragon Age 2 is the CORE of the product.



I now fully expect to see every single person here who is complaining about the DLC(besides those in Europe affected by the cancellations as I feel terribly sorry for you guys and girls overseas) to go to your local fast food joints and complain.

Or go to a car dealership and complain.

Or go to a bookstore and complain.

Or go to all the stores in a mall and complain.

I'll wait.

McDonald's? Really? As if this thread wasn't already making me sick to read...

[jstar80]

This is really starting to get ridiculous. I now no longer understand what I'm buying from you. There are multiple versions of the game, there is DLC that you may get for free if you pre order before a certain date but have to pay for if you don't. There's project $10 and now there is post release DLC being revealed before the release of the actual game.

In no other industry is this ridiculous situation occurring. Instead of releasing a game you are releasing an amorphous mess that is both confusing and incredibly inconvenient.

Now maybe I could put up with that if the DLC was worth it but lets be honest shall we, none of the DLC you have released for any of your games has been anything other than bad to semi-ok. New chars that have nothing to do with the main plot, meh, vendors?!?!?! And in game characters blowing apart your suspension of disbelief by directing you to the Bioware online store? I mean, have you gone totally insane? I think deep down you know that what you have offered is bull**** and I bet most of the people working on the DLC think so too.

Is there nobody who works at Bioware sensible enough to realise how stupid this is? I hate this. It makes me not want to buy your games. It makes me think Bioware as a company are a bunch of morons with absolutely no regard for their customers. I'm not so petty as to start making useless threats about not buying the game. I'm just one person, it would mean nothing. But I imagine I am not the only one who feels like this.

[Emzamination]

jstar80 wrote...



This is really starting to get ridiculous. I now no longer understand what I'm buying from you. There are multiple versions of the game, there is DLC that you may get for free if you pre order before a certain date but have to pay for if you don't. There's project $10 and now there is post release DLC being revealed before the release of the actual game.

In no other industry is this ridiculous situation occurring. Instead of releasing a game you are releasing an amorphous mess that is both confusing and incredibly inconvenient.

Now maybe I could put up with that if the DLC was worth it but lets be honest shall we, none of the DLC you have released for any of your games has been anything other than bad to semi-ok. New chars that have nothing to do with the main plot, meh, vendors?!?!?! And in game characters blowing apart your suspension of disbelief by directing you to the Bioware online store? I mean, have you gone totally insane? I think deep down you know that what you have offered is bull**** and I bet most of the people working on the DLC think so too.

Is there nobody who works at Bioware sensible enough to realise how stupid this is? I hate this. It makes me not want to buy your games. It makes me think Bioware as a company are a bunch of morons with absolutely no regard for their customers. I'm not so petty as to start making useless threats about not buying the game. I'm just one person, it would mean nothing. But I imagine I am not the only one who feels like this.

Ok this may be a bit off topic but seriously there is a vendor who directs you to the bioware store? 
L-O-F-L If so thats rich xD
Is this only for pc? I encountered nothing like that in the 360 version.

[Nash Latkje]

Get the Ultimate Edition. Problem solved.

[LPPrince]

ColdbringeR wrote...

McDonald's? Really? As if this thread wasn't already making me sick to read...

Then.......stop reading it? *shrugs*

Point is, its optional content that is not required to enjoy the full game.

Its the difference between 95% reaching 100%(which its not) and 100% reaching 105%(which it is).

Some people want to be pessimistic and negative claiming this is some evil greedy business strategy.

Other people want to be optimistic and positive claiming this is perfectly fine and dandy.

People will disagree. They always will. Some people may change their minds. Most won't.

It won't stop this discussion from continuing. Only thing that can stop this discussion is a thread lock, but inevitably someone will restart this discussion at another time.

Some people just need to accept that they may be right but they may also be wrong.

Agreeing to disagree is probably best for everyone in this thread. All it is is a bunch of people trying to convince other people that their side is correct.

So how about instead of literally reading into a comparison/argument, you(and many others here) just read the underlying point of said argument?

Might make you feel less sick.

Modifié par LPPrince, 03 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[Aidunno]

ColdbringeR wrote...


These analogies aren't getting any better. So which part of the "car" is this DLC? Is it the internal navigation perhaps? What if it's the air conditioning? I mean, a car still functions properly without it, it's just less pleasant to use, much like the DLC. Do car dealers charge "extra" for AC these days? I'm pretty sure most don't. Or what if it's the trunk? We don't need a trunk, do we? Perhaps car dealers should all charge extra for trunks too.

The point is, the DA2 DLC does not directly correspond to anything in your car analogy. As such, it's not a relevant analogy.

Been ages since I brought a new car but.. Any car is advertised with a trunk (normally size is stated).

Any "Extra" is not part of the base car.

Edition A is the base level
Edition B has Feature X
Edition C has Features X and Y

You pay extra for the Edition B and even more for Edition C. You can specify you want only feature Y but it may be more expensive than edition C as it's customised. Simple.

The DA2 game is the base edition. Edition B is standard preorder.. but it's free for DA2, simply time based. Edition C is SE edition and that's free as well but even more limited as to when you could order it. There's nothing to stop you getting Features X and Y installed in your base edition, it will simply cost more.

Now.. where is the difference?

Modifié par Aidunno, 03 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[Emzamination]

Glaucon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

jstar80 wrote...



This is really starting to get ridiculous. I now no longer understand what I'm buying from you. There are multiple versions of the game, there is DLC that you may get for free if you pre order before a certain date but have to pay for if you don't. There's project $10 and now there is post release DLC being revealed before the release of the actual game.

In no other industry is this ridiculous situation occurring. Instead of releasing a game you are releasing an amorphous mess that is both confusing and incredibly inconvenient.

Now maybe I could put up with that if the DLC was worth it but lets be honest shall we, none of the DLC you have released for any of your games has been anything other than bad to semi-ok. New chars that have nothing to do with the main plot, meh, vendors?!?!?! And in game characters blowing apart your suspension of disbelief by directing you to the Bioware online store? I mean, have you gone totally insane? I think deep down you know that what you have offered is bull**** and I bet most of the people working on the DLC think so too.

Is there nobody who works at Bioware sensible enough to realise how stupid this is? I hate this. It makes me not want to buy your games. It makes me think Bioware as a company are a bunch of morons with absolutely no regard for their customers. I'm not so petty as to start making useless threats about not buying the game. I'm just one person, it would mean nothing. But I imagine I am not the only one who feels like this.

Ok this may be a bit off topic but seriously there is a vendor who directs you to the bioware store? 
L-O-F-L If so thats rich xD
Is this only for pc? I encountered nothing like that in the 360 version.

Worse still: fireball has no effect on him.  Burn it with fire!

Wow knowing something like that exist made my day 

Wonder how that merchant got netz in medieval thedas 

Modifié par Emzamination, 03 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Sinvx]

Honestly, I don't see the point in DLC's pre-release. It's silly, it gives the game that not complete feel to it. Though I am not to concerned about it, since I never buy DLC's to begin with.

Modifié par Sinvx, 03 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[LPPrince]

Glaucon wrote...

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...


These analogies aren't getting any better. So which part of the "car" is this DLC? Is it the internal navigation perhaps? What if it's the air conditioning? I mean, a car still functions properly without it, it's just less pleasant to use, much like the DLC. Do car dealers charge "extra" for AC these days? I'm pretty sure most don't. Or what if it's the trunk? We don't need a trunk, do we? Perhaps car dealers should all charge extra for trunks too.

The point is, the DA2 DLC does not directly correspond to anything in your car analogy. As such, it's not a relevant analogy.

Been ages since I brought a new car but.. Any car is advertised with a trunk (normally size is stated).

Any "Extra" is not part of the base car.

Edition A is the base level
Edition B has Feature X
Edition C has Features X and Y

You pay extra for the Edition B and even more for Edition C. You can specify you want only feature Y but it may be more expensive than edition C as it's customised. Simple.

The DA2 game is the base edition. Edition B is standard preorder.. but it's free for DA2, simply time based. Edition C is SE edition and that's free as well but even more limited as to when you could order it. There's nothing to stop you getting Features X and Y installed in your base edition, it will simply cost more.

Now.. where is the difference?

The difference is that this is a relatively new business model in the gaming industry, and that it is giving people indigestion.  I don't eat food that gives me indigestion.  Oh no, I did it: a food analogy.  Sorry all.

Then.......people should take anti-indigestion stuff and get over it?

[ColdbringeR]

LPPrince wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

McDonald's? Really? As if this thread wasn't already making me sick to read...

Then.......stop reading it? *shrugs*

Point is, its optional content that is not required to enjoy the full game.

Its the difference between 95% reaching 100%(which its not) and 100% reaching 105%(which it is).

Some people want to be pessimistic and negative claiming this is some evil greedy business strategy.

Other people want to be optimistic and positive claiming this is perfectly fine and dandy.

People will disagree. They always will. Some people may change their minds. Most won't.

It
won't stop this discussion from continuing. Only thing that can stop
this discussion is a thread lock, but inevitably someone will restart
this discussion at another time.

Some people just need to accept that they may be right but they may also be wrong.

Agreeing
to disagree is probably best for everyone in this thread. All it is is a
bunch of people trying to convince other people that their side is
correct.

So how about instead of literally reading into a
comparison/argument, you(and many others here) just read the underlying
point of said argument?

Might make you feel less sick.

What's sickening is that there are so many stupid people on this earth that don't know how to use an analogy properly. I keep posting because I feel that perhaps I'm getting through to some people. DLC in DA2 is not the analogical equivalent of fries and a drink in an extra value meal at McDonald's. I'm sorry. It's not quite as simple as you would like to believe. The reason is because there is a well-defined reference point in your analogy (A Big-Mac is a complete meal in your view). But what is a complete game? The only reference point anyone on this thread can come up with is that a complete game is whatever the hell the manufacturers want it to be. Truly, we don't know what a complete game is beyond this. It's not something set in stone. This is critical to the argument because we are now trying to define downloadable content as "extra" when we don't have any logical way to do so other than the manufacturer's word. If the definition of a complete game is determined by the manufacturers, then "extra" DLC could be anything they want it to be, even content that is pulled from the originally intended development of the "complete" game. Why exactly is this concept difficult to fathom for so many?

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 01:11 .

[Aradace]

Glaucon wrote...

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...


These analogies aren't getting any better. So which part of the "car" is this DLC? Is it the internal navigation perhaps? What if it's the air conditioning? I mean, a car still functions properly without it, it's just less pleasant to use, much like the DLC. Do car dealers charge "extra" for AC these days? I'm pretty sure most don't. Or what if it's the trunk? We don't need a trunk, do we? Perhaps car dealers should all charge extra for trunks too.

The point is, the DA2 DLC does not directly correspond to anything in your car analogy. As such, it's not a relevant analogy.

Been ages since I brought a new car but.. Any car is advertised with a trunk (normally size is stated).

Any "Extra" is not part of the base car.

Edition A is the base level
Edition B has Feature X
Edition C has Features X and Y

You pay extra for the Edition B and even more for Edition C. You can specify you want only feature Y but it may be more expensive than edition C as it's customised. Simple.

The DA2 game is the base edition. Edition B is standard preorder.. but it's free for DA2, simply time based. Edition C is SE edition and that's free as well but even more limited as to when you could order it. There's nothing to stop you getting Features X and Y installed in your base edition, it will simply cost more.

Now.. where is the difference?

The difference is that this is a relatively new business model in the gaming industry, and that it is giving people indigestion.  I don't eat food that gives me indigestion.  Oh no, I did it: a food analogy.  Sorry all.

To use your analogy, just because the practice is giving folks indigestion, doesnt mean that the practice wont continue.  What it will do, however, is "weed out" the people unwilling to eat their food as a whole, but those that are willing to take the minor inconvieniece of indigestion, will continue to eat it regardless because it tastes good.  Those that arent eating it, arent going to affect whether or not the practice continues because there are so many folks willing to still eat said food, regardless of the indigestion because they'll just take some antacids if the indigestion gets too uncomfortable.

[Aidunno]

Glaucon wrote...

The difference is that this is a relatively new business model in the gaming industry, and that it is giving people indigestion.  I don't eat food that gives me indigestion.  Oh no, I did it: a food analogy.  Sorry all.

Micropayments systems have been growing and most are far more frustrating. If you could not play the game without DLC I would also be complaining about it. As it stands the game is complete and should be enjoyable without. I know in DAO I sometimes switched off the DLC as it led to imbalance during the starting levels.

Modifié par Aidunno, 03 mars 2011 - 01:24 .

[ColdbringeR]

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...


These analogies aren't getting any better. So which part of the "car" is this DLC? Is it the internal navigation perhaps? What if it's the air conditioning? I mean, a car still functions properly without it, it's just less pleasant to use, much like the DLC. Do car dealers charge "extra" for AC these days? I'm pretty sure most don't. Or what if it's the trunk? We don't need a trunk, do we? Perhaps car dealers should all charge extra for trunks too.

The point is, the DA2 DLC does not directly correspond to anything in your car analogy. As such, it's not a relevant analogy.

Been ages since I brought a new car but.. Any car is advertised with a trunk (normally size is stated).

Any "Extra" is not part of the base car.

Edition A is the base level
Edition B has Feature X
Edition C has Features X and Y

You pay extra for the Edition B and even more for Edition C. You can specify you want only feature Y but it may be more expensive than edition C as it's customised. Simple.

The DA2 game is the base edition. Edition B is standard preorder.. but it's free for DA2, simply time based. Edition C is SE edition and that's free as well but even more limited as to when you could order it. There's nothing to stop you getting Features X and Y installed in your base edition, it will simply cost more.

Now.. where is the difference?

The difference is game developers can easily pull many things from their "base level" product and pawn them off as additional "features" and we are in no position to say one way or another. As such, we have no idea if we are paying extra for a genuinely extra "feature" or something that simply would have been included in the game anyway had DLC not existed. In this regard, a car is very much different than a video game. If a car company removes something from the "base level" and advertises it as an additional "feature" it becomes very apparent to the consumers.

You seem to think you know what a "base" car is. Fair enough. Now what is a "base" video game?

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[LPPrince]

ColdbringeR wrote...

What's sickening is that there are so many stupid people on this earth that don't know how to use an analogy properly. I keep posting because I feel that perhaps I'm getting through to some people. DLC in DA2 is not the analogical equivalent of fries and a drink in an extra value meal at McDonald's. I'm sorry. It's not quite as simple as you would like to believe. The reason is because there is a well-defined reference point in your analogy (A Big-Mac is a complete meal in your view). But what is a complete game? The only reference point anyone on this thread can come up with is that a complete game is whatever the hell the manufacturers want it to be. Truly, we don't know what a complete game is beyond this. It's not something set in stone. This is critical to the argument because we are now trying to define downloadable content as "extra" when we don't have any logical way to do so other than the manufacturer's word. If the definition of a complete game is determined by the manufacturers, then "extra" DLC could be anything they want it to be, even content that is pulled from the originally intended development of the "complete" game. Why exactly is this concept difficult to fathom for so many?

If you order a Big Mac, you get a Big Mac. That's what is advertised, and that is what you get. Its a complete meal, as decided by McDonald's.

If you order Dragon Age 2, you get Dragon Age 2. That's what is advertised, and that is what you get. Its a complete game, as decided by Bioware.

Fries and a Drink? Optional and unnecessary.

DLC? Optional and unnecessary.

Doesn't have to be that complicated. And this is coming from someone who is always making things complicated and dragging things out longer than they need to.

[Aidunno]

ColdbringeR wrote...
...What's sickening is that there are so many stupid people on this earth...

Couldn't agree more

...But what is a complete game? The only reference point anyone on this thread can come up with is that a complete game is whatever the hell the manufacturers want it to be...

...You seem to think you know what a "base" car is. Fair enough. Now what is a "base" video game...

You've almost got it.... Not just what the manufacturers want it to be.. what they have advertised it as... DA2 is complete, as advertised and delivered without DLC... If not, i'm sure trading standards or equivelent would get involved.

Modifié par Aidunno, 03 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[ColdbringeR]

LPPrince wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

What's sickening is that there are so many stupid people on this earth that don't know how to use an analogy properly. I keep posting because I feel that perhaps I'm getting through to some people. DLC in DA2 is not the analogical equivalent of fries and a drink in an extra value meal at McDonald's. I'm sorry. It's not quite as simple as you would like to believe. The reason is because there is a well-defined reference point in your analogy (A Big-Mac is a complete meal in your view). But what is a complete game? The only reference point anyone on this thread can come up with is that a complete game is whatever the hell the manufacturers want it to be. Truly, we don't know what a complete game is beyond this. It's not something set in stone. This is critical to the argument because we are now trying to define downloadable content as "extra" when we don't have any logical way to do so other than the manufacturer's word. If the definition of a complete game is determined by the manufacturers, then "extra" DLC could be anything they want it to be, even content that is pulled from the originally intended development of the "complete" game. Why exactly is this concept difficult to fathom for so many?

If you order a Big Mac, you get a Big Mac. That's what is advertised, and that is what you get. Its a complete meal, as decided by McDonald's.

If you order Dragon Age 2, you get Dragon Age 2. That's what is advertised, and that is what you get. Its a complete game, as decided by Bioware.

Fries and a Drink? Optional and unnecessary.

DLC? Optional and unnecessary.

Doesn't have to be that complicated. And this is coming from someone who is always making things complicated and dragging things out longer than they need to.

AGAIN, here is where your analogy fails:

If McDonald's modifies their Big Mac by removing the special sauce and charging extra for it, this becomes apparent to the consumer.

If EA/Bioware modify Dragon Age 2 by removing a companion and charging extra for it, this is NOT apparent to the consumers.

How is this so? Because we know the ingredients of a Big Mac. They don't shift around and change like the elements of a video game series. They remain constant. As such, this is a POOR ANALOGY.

[ColdbringeR]

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...
...What's sickening is that there are so many stupid people on this earth...

Couldn't agree more

...But what is a complete game? The only reference point anyone on this thread can come up with is that a complete game is whatever the hell the manufacturers want it to be...

...You seem to think you know what a "base" car is. Fair enough. Now what is a "base" video game...

You've almost got it.... Not just what the manufacturers want it to be.. what they have advertised it as... DA2 is complete, as advertised and delivered without DLC... If not, i'm sure trading standards or equivelent would get involved.

So a "base video game" can be a toothbrush if they advertise it as so?



(Please say yes. This will be such a fun path to go down [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie])

[Tleining]

ColdbringeR wrote...

The difference is game developers can easily pull many things from their "base level" product and pawn them off as additional "features" and we are in no position to say one way or another. As such, we have no idea if we are paying extra for a genuinely extra "feature" or something that simply would have been included in the game anyway had DLC not existed. In this regard, a car is very much different than a video game. If a car company removes something from the "base level" and advertises it as an additional "feature" it becomes very apparent to the consumers.

You seem to think you know what a "base" car is. Fair enough. Now what is a "base" video game?

okay, so where does that leave us? The devs have pointed that out several times already. You can either believe the Bioware devs, or you don't. There really isn't much more to it.
Personally, i'd rather have them working on DLCs, so that we can get access to the small things that didn't make it into the final game, instead of having them start work on the next game directly.