339 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyweir]

The big question is:

Is the DLC character a vital part of the story of the Champion?
If yes, then the game is incomplete without him.
If no, why have him at all.

I would assume that all the charcters in the game have vital part to play in the overall story arch Anything else would be very sloppy writing. So either you do not get the full game experience without Sebastian, or you do, which means he will feel like a tacked on addition to the main story.

This is why day one DLC are a bad idea, game and storywise. Buisness wise, however, it is a great idea. I will basically be forced to buy the DLC to make certain that my first play through is not crippled by the lack of an important character.

Then again, I am an adult with a real job, so I can afford it. So in practice, it does not really matter. As a concept however, I am not a fan.

[ColdbringeR]

Tleining wrote...

okay, so where does that leave us? The devs have pointed that out several times already. You can either believe the Bioware devs, or you don't. There really isn't much more to it.
Personally, i'd rather have them working on DLCs, so that we can get access to the small things that didn't make it into the final game, instead of having them start work on the next game directly.

Honestly, If they just release DLC a short while after the release of the game, I doubt half as many people would be complaining. At least at that point it isn't blatantly obvious that this content could easily have been included in the initial release. It also raises a bit less speculation as to whether this content was developed in addition to the "core" game or simply ripped from it.

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[jstar80]

This conversation has derailed somewhat from the important issue. Using analogies is all well and good but in reality none of them actually fit. Not the big mac meal one not the car one, not any of them. The optional extras that are part of those purchases are just that, part of those purchases. A big mac meal has always been a big mac meal and you have always been able to buy it as one or as individual components. The same when you buy a car, you have always been able to customise your car to your taste within the limits of the manufacturers specifications.

To make these analogies work you need to come up with a theoretical alteration to the way those purchases work. To take the Big Mac analogy, it's comparable if Macdonald's advertised a burger and then before the burger came out they advertised that once it has you can buy ketchup to have on the burger. You'd be like.. WTF... why do I now have to buy the ketchup for the burger and why the **** are you advertising it before I can even buy the burger?

The additional of DLC is a new element in the video game market. Ten years ago you would buy a game and if it sold well 6 months later there would be an expansion pack comprising of a solid amount of content. Often the expansion packs were even better than the original game. Lets use Star Craft Brood War as an example. They also cost roughly half the price of the original game. I don't know about you, but I paid that happily.

Now however the ease with which you can deliver content has seemingly made developers crazed DLC dispensers. There is no onerous manufacturing process to go through so they can toss out crap willy nilly as and when they feel like it. I think we can all agree that compared to the x packs of yesteryear the standard of additional game content has dropped considerably. We are therefore regressing from where we were 10 years ago. Clearly something is wrong.

Of course it is perfectly possible to enjoy Dragon Age 2 without all the additional content. But let's be honest, we all feel like we will be missing out on something if we don't get it. In the same way as we always check every single nook and cranny of every single area we go into in every RPG we play so we can ensure that we didn't miss the Wand of Fiery Goodness and the Sword of Eternal Slashing. Bioware know we feel like this, EA know we feel like this, we know we feel like this. Therefore Bioware can stand there until they are blue in the face saying 'But you don't HAVE to buy it' despite the fact that at some point in some room in their office someone also said 'but they WILL buy it.' While this is somewhat disingenuous I wouldn't mind so much if the quality of this DLC was high, but it's not and if it was implemented in the right way, which it isn't.

I don't know about you but I think this is an abuse of our very nature as games players in general and RPG players specifically. I used to hold Bioware up there with Valve, Bungie, Blizzard etc. Developers I trust and who's games I love. But no more. You will notice that none of those companies ever do anything like this.

Quite frankly, it's bull****.

Modifié par jstar80, 03 mars 2011 - 02:13 .

[Amcope]

Skyweir wrote...

The big question is:

Is the DLC character a vital part of the story of the Champion?
If yes, then the game is incomplete without him.
If no, why have him at all.

The real question is:
Is anything ever incomplete without any one thing?

I'm not defending Bioware or the Users who are angry over this.
I am simply asking a question and leaving my own personal opinion to myself for the moment.

[Amorality]

jstar80 wrote...

This is really starting to get ridiculous. I now no longer understand what I'm buying from you. There are multiple versions of the game, there is DLC that you may get for free if you pre order before a certain date but have to pay for if you don't. There's project $10 and now there is post release DLC being revealed before the release of the actual game.

In no other industry is this ridiculous situation occurring. Instead of releasing a game you are releasing an amorphous mess that is both confusing and incredibly inconvenient.

Now maybe I could put up with that if the DLC was worth it but lets be honest shall we, none of the DLC you have released for any of your games has been anything other than bad to semi-ok. New chars that have nothing to do with the main plot, meh, vendors?!?!?! And in game characters blowing apart your suspension of disbelief by directing you to the Bioware online store? I mean, have you gone totally insane? I think deep down you know that what you have offered is bull**** and I bet most of the people working on the DLC think so too.

Is there nobody who works at Bioware sensible enough to realise how stupid this is? I hate this. It makes me not want to buy your games. It makes me think Bioware as a company are a bunch of morons with absolutely no regard for their customers. I'm not so petty as to start making useless threats about not buying the game. I'm just one person, it would mean nothing. But I imagine I am not the only one who feels like this.

This is why I will not be supporting BioWare by buying DA2 nor ME3. You are the not the only one jstar80.

2 and counting.

[Tleining]

ColdbringeR wrote...

Tleining wrote...

okay, so where does that leave us? The devs have pointed that out several times already. You can either believe the Bioware devs, or you don't. There really isn't much more to it.
Personally, i'd rather have them working on DLCs, so that we can get access to the small things that didn't make it into the final game, instead of having them start work on the next game directly.

Honestly, If they just release DLC a short while after the release of the game, I doubt half as many people would be complaining. At least at that point it isn't blatantly obvious that this content could easily have been included in the initial release. It also raises a bit less speculation as to whether this content was developed in addition to the "core" game or simply ripped from it.

yes, but that's the point. According to bioware (or any game developer really), some members of the team are finished before others. Should they start working on the next game or additional content to the current one? If they start working on a new game, we don't get DLC, ever. If they start working on additional content we get DLC, and we will get that when it's finished. So either you believe that it happened like that, or you believe that Bioware EA is purposely removing content to sell later. But that will have to happen regardless of the timing.
Fact is: The game has to be finalized at some point. Everything developed after that can't just be added to the initial release. Otherwise they'd never be finished.

[AlexJK]

jstar80 wrote...

To make these analogies work you need to come up with a theoretical alteration to the way those purchases work. To take the Big Mac analogy, it's comparable if Macdonald's advertised a burger and then before the burger came out they advertised that once it has you can buy ketchup to have on the burger. You'd be like.. WTF... why do I now have to buy the ketchup for the burger and why the **** are you advertising it before I can even buy the burger?

No it isn't. At all. Ketchup has always been an integral part of the burger and always will be - in the same way, DA2 is not being released missing a vital character which you MUST purchase, or with a vital feature locked. It's comparable to saying "now you can buy a Big Mac, and add an extra burger patty for $1".

Now however the ease with which you can deliver content has seemingly made developers crazed DLC dispensers. There is no onerous manufacturing process to go through so they can toss out crap willy nilly as and when they feel like it. I think we can all agree that compared to the x packs of yesteryear the standard of additional game content has dropped considerably.

No, I don't agree. Expansion packs have always been hit or miss, and so is DLC. What exactly is new about that?

I don't know about you but I think this is an abuse of our very nature as games players in general and RPG players specifically. I used to hold Bioware up there with Valve, Bungie, Blizzard etc. Developers I trust and who's games I love. But no more. You will notice that none of those companies ever do anything like this.

Rubbish. Valve released HL2, then HL2 Episode 1 as an add-on, then they released Episode 2 as part of a box which you couldn't buy on its own so I had to buy an extra copy of HL2 which I didn't want or need, and they will apparently never release the promised Episode 3. For you to suggest that controversial marketing practices are a new thing, or unique to Bioware/EA, is just incorrect.

Quite frankly, it's bull****.

And this reduces your argument to childish rudeness. How pathetic.

[LPPrince]

Tleining wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

Tleining wrote...

okay, so where does that leave us? The devs have pointed that out several times already. You can either believe the Bioware devs, or you don't. There really isn't much more to it.
Personally, i'd rather have them working on DLCs, so that we can get access to the small things that didn't make it into the final game, instead of having them start work on the next game directly.

Honestly, If they just release DLC a short while after the release of the game, I doubt half as many people would be complaining. At least at that point it isn't blatantly obvious that this content could easily have been included in the initial release. It also raises a bit less speculation as to whether this content was developed in addition to the "core" game or simply ripped from it.

yes, but that's the point. According to bioware (or any game developer really), some members of the team are finished before others. Should they start working on the next game or additional content to the current one? If they start working on a new game, we don't get DLC, ever. If they start working on additional content we get DLC, and we will get that when it's finished. So either you believe that it happened like that, or you believe that Bioware EA is purposely removing content to sell later. But that will have to happen regardless of the timing.
Fact is: The game has to be finalized at some point. Everything developed after that can't just be added to the initial release. Otherwise they'd never be finished.

But some people will never accept the fact that there comes a point where the game is finished and nothing can be added to it.

Hell, the fact that we could get The Exiled Prince DLC for free with Signature Editions is pretty much Bioware adding it to the vanilla game.

But people won't look at it that way because not everyone preordered that early and those who didn't have to pay 7 bucks to get said DLC.

The equivalent of three cups of coffee or one cup of coffee at Starbucks. lol (Born in NYC, so I'd know)

Modifié par LPPrince, 03 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[ColdbringeR]

Tleining wrote...

yes, but that's the point. According to bioware (or any game developer really), some members of the team are finished before others. Should they start working on the next game or additional content to the current one? If they start working on a new game, we don't get DLC, ever. If they start working on additional content we get DLC, and we will get that when it's finished. So either you believe that it happened like that, or you believe that Bioware EA is purposely removing content to sell later. But that will have to happen regardless of the timing.
Fact is: The game has to be finalized at some point. Everything developed after that can't just be added to the initial release. Otherwise they'd never be finished.

My belief is that EA/Bioware develop their games at this point with DLC planned from the start, but my belief doesn't matter. If some team members are finished before others, then they could be put to work polishing other aspects of the game, adding additional bits of content to areas that already exist, working on a sequel, or working on some other project. There's obviously a lot of things they could be doing. Honestly, I don't care what they do. I'm bothered more by how they are marketing their efforts.

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 02:45 .

[Arrtis]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, folks, but we are not responsible for whether every individual knew or did not know about the Signature Edition offer. It was heavily advertised on our forums, website, and elsewhere. No one individual is so special that they should expect us to ignore our special offer expiry dates for them, whether they knew about the dates or not.

Aww not even old customers....

[jstar80]

This is how you do DLC:

1. Announce your game.
2. Announce your intention to do DLC that will expand upon and add to the experience of the previously announced game. But it will distinct and separate from that game.
3. Make and release game.
4. Announce first piece of DLC. Which is something like:

a) A playable backstory for one of the main characters that reveals certain things about them we didn't know.
A look at some of the game's moments from a new perspective/character.
c) A playable section that previously you only heard about from other characters in the game. EG. You hear tales of a great adventurer and then get to play the tales.
d) A small linking story that melds the main game with a larger piece of DLC (or sequel) to come in the future.

That's just four things off the top of my head. That strategy is already better than anything Bioware have ever done in terms of DLC.

[LPPrince]

jstar80 wrote...

This is how you do DLC:

1. Announce your game.
2. Announce your intention to do DLC that will expand upon and add to the experience of the previously announced game. But it will distinct and separate from that game.
3. Make and release game.
4. Announce first piece of DLC. Which is something like:

a) A playable backstory for one of the main characters that reveals certain things about them we didn't know.
A look at some of the game's moments from a new perspective/character.
c) A playable section that previously you only heard about from other characters in the game. EG. You hear tales of a great adventurer and then get to play the tales.
d) A small linking story that melds the main game with a larger piece of DLC (or sequel) to come in the future.

That's just four things off the top of my head. That strategy is already better than anything Bioware have ever done in terms of DLC.

A. Leliana's Song
B. Darkspawn Chronicles
C. Leliana's Song
D. Awakening

Thank you, try again?

Modifié par LPPrince, 03 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[Aidunno]

jstar80 wrote...

This conversation has derailed somewhat from the important issue. Using analogies is all well and good but in reality none of them actually fit.

Wrong.. you just don't accept them.

jstar80 wrote...

To make these analogies work you need to come up with a theoretical alteration to the way those purchases work. To take the Big Mac analogy, it's comparable if Macdonald's advertised a burger and then before the burger came out they advertised that once it has you can buy ketchup to have on the burger. You'd be like.. WTF... why do I now have to buy the ketchup for the burger and why the **** are you advertising it before I can even buy the burger?

If the burger is advertised as being with ketchup everyone would complain. If not they couldn't and you can have ketchup if you want. No problem.

Now however the ease with which you can deliver content has seemingly made developers crazed DLC dispensers. There is no onerous manufacturing process to go through so they can toss out crap willy nilly as and when they feel like it. I think we can all agree that compared to the x packs of yesteryear the standard of additional game content has dropped considerably. We are therefore regressing from where we were 10 years ago. Clearly something is wrong.

That's not an issue.. If an expansion wasn't good you wouldn't buy it. Same here. Don't like DLC don't buy it.

Of course it is perfectly possible to enjoy Dragon Age 2 without all the additional content. But let's be honest, we all feel like we will be missing out on something if we don't get it.

I also want a porsche as I like the look of one... doesn't mean I'll get one.

[Skyweir]

Amcope wrote...

Skyweir wrote...

The big question is:

Is the DLC character a vital part of the story of the Champion?
If yes, then the game is incomplete without him.
If no, why have him at all.

The real question is:
Is anything ever incomplete without any one thing?

I'm not defending Bioware or the Users who are angry over this.
I am simply asking a question and leaving my own personal opinion to myself for the moment.

Certainly somethings are are  incomplete without one thing. A story without one of the main protagaonists will feel rather incomplete. So the question is, how is the story written? Is Sebastian integral to the plot in some way, does his inclusion change how the plot unfolds? That would make the game incomplete without him. If he does not really impact the main narrative in any way, this would not be true. But then he would be a pretty poor companion and not worth even a few bucks.

I think Bioware are good writers, so I will assume that Sebastian will be an important character in the main narrative and impact the Champions story in some way. That means that the DLC really is a must buy, and really should have been in the main game as a matter of principle (like Shale was).

But as I said, it will likely make little difference. If you can afford $60, you can afford $66 for the full game as well. If not, you should really save some more money before you buy a video game.  But it is an insidoious buisness practice, masking prices and such. I find it rather immoral. 

[ColdbringeR]

Aidunno wrote...

jstar80 wrote...

This conversation has derailed somewhat from the important issue. Using analogies is all well and good but in reality none of them actually fit.

Wrong.. you just don't accept them.

Don't get mad because people can tear apart your failed attempt at using an analogy. Go back and answer the last question I asked you and we'll continue this dicussion, or please remain quiet.

[Aidunno]

ColdbringeR wrote...

Aidunno wrote...

jstar80 wrote...

This conversation has derailed somewhat from the important issue. Using analogies is all well and good but in reality none of them actually fit.

Wrong.. you just don't accept them.

Don't get mad because people can tear apart your failed attempt at using an analogy. Go back and answer the last question I asked you and we'll continue this dicussion, or please remain quiet.

Not mad, amazed as you think that, just because you also don't accept them, it's wrong. Just stating "your wrong" is hardly tearing it apart.

And to answer your question... Answer is yes so have all the fun you want..  If something is advertised as a toothbrush and you buy it as a toobrush you have a right to expect a toothbrush. If not then you have every right to get your money back. If something is advertised as a toothbrush and you use it as a loobrush I wouldn't expect you to get your money back.

Modifié par Aidunno, 03 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Kloreep]

Abbbe wrote...

One thing I'd really like to hear from a Bioware developer is the removal of in-game characters asking for real money in order to embark on their quest like in DAO. I think that's almost morally reprehensible.

"Morally reprehensible" is getting a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

But I agree with your general point, the in-game salesmen were tacky. I think just about everyone can agree on that point. I hope they've drawn the line at an in-software/in-menu DLC store and the launcher ads.

For me personally, I think what it comes down to is that I don't want to see an advertisement after clicking "new game" or "load game." Once past one of those two buttons, I expect to enter a suspension-of-disbelief safe zone.

Skyweir wrote...

The big question is:

Is the DLC character a vital part of the story of the Champion?
If yes, then the game is incomplete without him.
If no, why have him at all.

That is something of the challenge all DLC faces.

I would actually have named Shale is a good example of how it is actually possible to strike an in-between. She was not comparable to Alistair or Morrigan in importance, but her presence does make the Orzammar portion of the story a bit more interesting, and she's a fun party member to have elsewhere. But it sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree on that DLC.

Modifié par Kloreep, 03 mars 2011 - 03:04 .

[apoc_reg]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, folks, but we are not responsible for whether every individual knew or did not know about the Signature Edition offer. It was heavily advertised on our forums, website, and elsewhere. No one individual is so special that they should expect us to ignore our special offer expiry dates for them, whether they knew about the dates or not.

Thats fair enough Stanley but can i ask why the decision was made to limit the signature edition at all? I cant see the benefit for you either?

Thanks

[jstar80]

In fact **** it. This thread has just turned into one of those ridiculous bickering arguments about nothing at all. The original issue has been forgotten and everyone is just arguing about the way it should be argued. How incredibly productive.

Modifié par jstar80, 03 mars 2011 - 03:16 .

[ColdbringeR]

Aidunno wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

Aidunno wrote...

jstar80 wrote...

This conversation has derailed somewhat from the important issue. Using analogies is all well and good but in reality none of them actually fit.

Wrong.. you just don't accept them.

Don't get mad because people can tear apart your failed attempt at using an analogy. Go back and answer the last question I asked you and we'll continue this dicussion, or please remain quiet.

Not mad, amazed as you think that, just because you also don't accept them, it's wrong. Just stating "your wrong" is hardly tearing it apart.

And to answer your question... Answer is yes so have all the fun you want..  If something is advertised as a toothbrush and you buy it as a toobrush you have a right to expect a toothbrush. If not then you have every right to get your money back. If something is advertised as a toothbrush and you use it as a loobrush I wouldn't expect you to get your money back.

I never said simply that "you are wrong", but that looks a lot like what you just said to jstar80.

Anwyay, so if we advertise a "Dragon Age 2" as a toothbrush the consumers should expect a "toothbrush". There will be a minimum acceptable product that we receive. It should have bristles and a handle at the very least, I suppose. If you disagree, tell me what you think a toothbrush should be.

My question now is, what minimum acceptable product constitutes as a "video game" since that's what DA2 is actually being advertised as?

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 03:15 .

[Amcope]

jstar80 wrote...
Nice and unneccesarily aggressive way to end your post. It just reduces your argument to childish rudeness. How pathetic.

P.S. Are you smoking crack?

Way to ruin your argument and be a hypocrite all in the same post. I was silently agreeing with you while reading your posts until you started needlessly throwing insults at people who disagree with your points.

They explained why and I think they deserve some respect just as much you.

[Emzamination]

jstar80 wrote...

This is how you do DLC:

1. Announce your game.
2. Announce your intention to do DLC that will expand upon and add to the experience of the previously announced game. But it will distinct and separate from that game.
3. Make and release game.
4. Announce first piece of DLC. Which is something like:

a) A playable backstory for one of the main characters that reveals certain things about them we didn't know.
A look at some of the game's moments from a new perspective/character.
c) A playable section that previously you only heard about from other characters in the game. EG. You hear tales of a great adventurer and then get to play the tales.
d) A small linking story that melds the main game with a larger piece of DLC (or sequel) to come in the future.

That's just four things off the top of my head. That strategy is already better than anything Bioware have ever done in terms of DLC.

That right there is personal taste and a company like bioware has to cater to the majority.

[Tleining]

ColdbringeR wrote...

My belief is that EA/Bioware develop their games at this point with DLC planned from the start, but my belief doesn't matter. If some team members are finished before others, then they could be put to work polishing other aspects of the game, adding additional bits of content to areas that already exist, working on a sequel, or working on some other project. There's obviously a lot of things they could be doing. Honestly, I don't care what they do. I'm bothered more by how they are marketing their efforts.

uh, that's not how project-planning works. If a member from one group jumps into another one to improve it, it completely screws up your timetable.
So that brings us back to believing Bioware or not. Instead of directly working on a sequel, they work on DLC. The decision about that is not up to you or me. If you don't like the DLC, don't buy it, you have that choice. I didn't see a reason for the feastday gifts, so i didn't buy them. I still had the complete game.

[jstar80]

Amcope wrote...

jstar80 wrote...
Nice and unneccesarily aggressive way to end your post. It just reduces your argument to childish rudeness. How pathetic.

P.S. Are you smoking crack?

Way to ruin your argument and be a hypocrite all in the same post. I was silently agreeing with you while reading your posts until you started needlessly throwing insults at people who disagree with your points.

They explained why and I think they deserve some respect just as much you.

That is very true. But I'm only human and a very irritated one at that.

[Amcope]

jstar80 wrote...

Amcope wrote...

jstar80 wrote...
Nice and unneccesarily aggressive way to end your post. It just reduces your argument to childish rudeness. How pathetic.

P.S. Are you smoking crack?

Way to ruin your argument and be a hypocrite all in the same post. I was silently agreeing with you while reading your posts until you started needlessly throwing insults at people who disagree with your points.

They explained why and I think they deserve some respect just as much you.

That is very true. But I'm only human and a very irritated one at that.

You could at the very least try to make amends by apologizing.