339 réponses à ce sujet

[ColdbringeR]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ErebUs890 wrote...

It feels as though I'm paying full price for an incomplete product.

It's a shame that's what it feels like, because it's not true.

BioWare
decides the scope of the product they are selling you.  That's an
important part of voluntary exchange.  Unless both parties agree, no
transactions take place.  And BioWare has agreed only to sell you the
game lacking the DLC content.

He said it feels like he's paying for an incomplete product. Why are you arguing with how someone feels? The idiocy in this thread knows no bounds I see. I happen to agree with him/her and I feel the same way.

I'm not disputing the feeling.  I'm disputing any reasonable justification for the feeling.

If you want to be irrational, go ahead.  But don't expect me not to point it out.

So you're saying he's not actually feeling the way he feels because you don't see any reasonable justification?  No I think you're saying that he shouldn't feel the way he feels because there is apparently no reasonable justification? So where are these crazy feelings coming from? Could it be that we, the consumers, form expectations of the products we buy? Could it be that when the exact same things that were traditionally included in our "complete" product" free of charge suddenly start showing up as $7 DLC at release dates it stirs up something inside? No.. that can't be it. I'm sure his feelings spawned from thin air, since there apparently is no reasonable justification.

A strange phenomenon indeed.

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[AlanC9]

Randomjob wrote...

This.  There are many games out there right now that I fully intend to buy, but because they have so much DLC, I can't justify getting it until there is a GOTY with all of it.  Strangely enough, if they had NO dlc, I'd probably just buy the game now and the game makers would get their money sooner.

Here's the thing I don't get... with no DLC, you'd still be better off waiting a year or two if you're really interested in getting the game cheap. How come the DLC pushes you over the edge?

[Tleining]

MadLaughter wrote...

EA has done it multiple times. Look at Medal of Honor for a recent example.

uh, i hope this was an answer to my post. Medal of Honor Limited Edition? You mean the one that is still available for purchase?

[AnotherAD]

I rather see Bioware reward people that buy their previous products then put "buy months in advance and get all this crap" Because you still have people that will buy the product anyway. Till I see the stats on these so cool items, most likely you can use it till later on in the game. Just look at the items you received in Origins either it be BDA or items unlock by achievements.

I so hope they do not treat their mmo this way.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ColdbringeR wrote...

So you're saying he's not actually feeling the way he feels because you don't see any reasonable justification?

What part of "I'm not disputing the feeling" did you not understand?

Or are you saying that he shouldn't feel the way he feels because there is apparently no reasonable justification?

I am not making any normative claim here, no.  You're welcome to infer them if you'd like, however.

So where are these crazy feelings coming from? Could it be that we, the consumers, form expectations of the products we buy?

Unreasonable expectations, as I've shown.

Could it be that when the exact same things that were traditionally included in our "complete" product" free of charge suddenly start showing up as $7 DLC at release dates it stirs up something inside?

But what is that "something"?  Why does it have a material effect?

No.. that can't be it. I'm sure his feelings spawned from thin air, since there apparently is no reasonable justification.

If they can't be justified, then they may as well have spawned from thin air.

[AlanC9]

ColdbringeR wrote...
 Could it be that when the exact same things that were traditionally included in our "complete" product" free of charge suddenly start showing up as $7 DLC at release dates it stirs up something inside?

But why should it stir something up? The existence of a $7 DLC simply doesn't mean that the game has any less of that stuff than it otherwise would have had. If that's what causes the feeling, then the feeling is irrational.

Having said that, I'm not quite sure why it's worth talking about. Rational or not, people have the feelings they have.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Having said that, I'm not quite sure why it's worth talking about. Rational or not, people have the feelings they have.

But if they're aware it's irrational, maybe they'll work at not doing it.

One can hope.

[Imryll]

I think my impression that DAO is an under-itemized game with its progression undermined by OP items from assorted promotions and DLCs is entirely rational. Perhaps this will not hold true for DA2, but I'd say it would be irrational not to be concerned that history will repeat itself. I guess folks will know soon.

[swk3000]

I despise threads like these. 'Day 1 DLC is nothing more than a money-grab' is a load of bull. As was mentioned by the moderator on the first page, BioWare has to submit a game to be made into disc form several months before the release date; they don't do so a week before the game comes out. However, the devs don't stop working on the game after submitting it to be made into hard-copy; instead, they keep coming up with new characters and quests and such. Since it's too late to get it into the hard-copy, the release it as Day 1 DLC. They're not grabbing for money; they're giving you items that they couldn't put into the hard-copy due to time constraints. Or would you rather they sit on their arses and twiddle their thumbs for several months because they can't get the content onto a hard-copy?

Frankly, I find the idea behind Day 1 DLC solid, because it means that the devs haven't stopped working on the game just because it's come out; instead, they keep coming up with things. Sure, I'd much prefer if it was free for about the first week or two, but as has also been mentioned, they are a business, and a business is about making money first and satisfying customers second. It sucks, but so does life. You can either moan and whine because you aren't being pampered, or you can suck it up and take it like a man/woman.

[HTTP 404]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Having said that, I'm not quite sure why it's worth talking about. Rational or not, people have the feelings they have.

But if they're aware it's irrational, maybe they'll work at not doing it.

One can hope.

 this debate has been around well before DA2 and will continue well after it for games in general.  it is what it is....
No one is twisting your arm.  For games that I dont really care about I will buy zero dlc from them even if I own the game.  however with that said when it comes to bioware games I will spend the extra hard earned money for extra content.  These are choices presented to us and it is up to every individual to decide what they want.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 03 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[AnotherAD]

swk3000 wrote...

BioWare has to submit a game to be made into disc form several months before the release date; they don't do so a week before the game comes out. .

So why was it "Dragon Age 2 went gold" announcement less than a month ago (02/11/11) ,

[HTTP 404]

AnotherAD wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

BioWare has to submit a game to be made into disc form several months before the release date; they don't do so a week before the game comes out. .

So why was it "Dragon Age 2 went gold" announcement less than a month ago (02/11/11) ,

pre-orders....I thought that was obvious?

[freezeyZ]

Wait so any pre-order get the dlc or only the collecter?

[Stanley Woo]

AnotherAD wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

BioWare has to submit a game to be made into disc form several months before the release date; they don't do so a week before the game comes out. .

So why was it "Dragon Age 2 went gold" announcement less than a month ago (02/11/11) ,

To clarify: a gold announcement means the completed game-on-disc has been approved for manufacturing. That game-on-disc still had to have been locked and submitted weeks earlier, and spent weeks in final testing to ensure there are no obvious, severe, and common issues.

[ColdbringeR]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Unreasonable expectations, as I've shown.

I didn't list any specific expectations, so how can you claim they are unreasable? Unless you are claiming that any expectation of a product is unreasonable.. Is this the case?

But what is that "something"?  Why does it have a material effect?

You might define it as disgust?

If they can't be justified, then they may as well have spawned from thin air.

Then what pray tell would justify feeling like you received an incomplete product? By your expanation a product can never be incomplete because the product is defined solely by the manufacturer.

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Stanley Woo]

ColdbringeR, Sylvius the Mad, either take your "debate" to private or agree to disagree. thank you.

[swk3000]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AnotherAD wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

BioWare has to submit a game to be made into disc form several months before the release date; they don't do so a week before the game comes out. .

So why was it "Dragon Age 2 went gold" announcement less than a month ago (02/11/11) ,

To clarify: a gold announcement means the completed game-on-disc has been approved for manufacturing. That game-on-disc still had to have been locked and submitted weeks earlier, and spent weeks in final testing to ensure there are no obvious, severe, and common issues.

So the version of the game that is on disc would probably have been finalized in December or January, then put through the testing and final submission process. Hell, it may have been finalized in late November at the earliest.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ColdbringeR wrote...

By your expanation a product can never be incomplete because the product is defined solely by the manufacturer.

As long as the product is what the manufacturer claims it is, yes.

And it would appear we are done, here.  Thanks for the polite stop sign, Stan.

[ColdbringeR]

AlanC9 wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...
 Could it be that when the exact same things that were traditionally included in our "complete" product" free of charge suddenly start showing up as $7 DLC at release dates it stirs up something inside?

But why should it stir something up? The existence of a $7 DLC simply doesn't mean that the game has any less of that stuff than it otherwise would have had. If that's what causes the feeling, then the feeling is irrational.

It stirs something up because we consider the possibility that this DLC is simply a portion of the product that was extracted during development in order to be advertised as "bonus content". If this is the case, then we are indeed receiving less of a product than we would have if DLC didn't exist. I'm not claiming that this is the case however, but how exactly are we to know that it isn't?

Modifié par ColdbringeR, 03 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[HTTP 404]

ColdbringeR wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ColdbringeR wrote...
 Could it be that when the exact same things that were traditionally included in our "complete" product" free of charge suddenly start showing up as $7 DLC at release dates it stirs up something inside?

But why should it stir something up? The existence of a $7 DLC simply doesn't mean that the game has any less of that stuff than it otherwise would have had. If that's what causes the feeling, then the feeling is irrational.

It stirs something up because we consider the possibility that this DLC is simply a portion of the product that was extracted during development in order to be advertised as "bonus content". If this is the case, then we are indeed receiving less of a product than we would have if DLC didn't exist. I'm not claiming that this is the case, but how exactly are we to know that it isn't?

you dont

[Jackalofdeath]

fuuuuuu wrong thread

Modifié par Jackalofdeath, 03 mars 2011 - 09:51 .

[ColdbringeR]

HTTP 404 wrote...

you dont

Thank you. That was the point.

[Stanley Woo]

ColdbringeR wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But why should it stir something up? The existence of a $7 DLC simply doesn't mean that the game has any less of that stuff than it otherwise would have had. If that's what causes the feeling, then the feeling is irrational.

It stirs something up because we consider the possibility that this DLC is simply a portion of the product that was extracted during development in order to be advertised as "bonus content". If this is the case, then we are indeed receiving less of a product than we would have if DLC didn't exist. I'm not claiming that this is the case however, but how exactly are we to know that it isn't?

Actually, ColdbringeR, what I've gotten from your "side" of the discussion is that it doesn't matter what you are told or what the facts are, that people should be able to feel however they feel. So really, you don't particularly care for any reassurances or facts or reasons.

This being the case, what do you want to hear? What would make you stop feeling like you're getting an incomplete product at this point? (And I say "at this point," because I would rather not have you ask for solutions which require us to go back in time, because time travel is not currently feasible.)

EDIT: If we cannot agree to disagree, or if there is nothing we can say or do to alleviate this feeling, then there is no more discussion to be had, is there?

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 03 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[Dlokir]

Imryll wrote...

I think my impression that DAO is an under-itemized game with its progression undermined by OP items from assorted promotions and DLCs is entirely rational. Perhaps this will not hold true for DA2, but I'd say it would be irrational not to be concerned that history will repeat itself. I guess folks will know soon.

My feeling is more the reverse. DAO had a nice set of items and a fair balance about them. And you could include or not some of the few items added by each shop at release and this didn't change much.

But later, DLC after DLC each bring new powerful items that tend break the balance and pushed players to build party with over-powerful equipments.

I"m not that much against DLC but I felt Awakening was too short. I won't make the conclusion that all DLC released made Awakening too short, but in a way it did.

The original game required to create a huge amount of resources. DLC and expansion are build on a large part of those resources and only bring some new. DLC and/or expansion allow a sort of larger income on the base of the initial investment.The more DLC they do and can sell the less expansions they have to do. That's the real point I don't like in DLC, they are in opposition with expansions.

For the pure items DLC they are pointless and will only break the game balance that the design and building team are required to setup for the original game without any item DLC.

[AlanC9]

ColdbringeR wrote...
It stirs something up because we consider the possibility that this DLC is simply a portion of the product that was extracted during development in order to be advertised as "bonus content". If this is the case, then we are indeed receiving less of a product than we would have if DLC didn't exist. I'm not claiming that this is the case however, but how exactly are we to know that it isn't?

There are two ways to know it isn't. First, because the Bio devs have said it isn't. Different budget, etc.

Second, because it would be very, very stupid for Bio to work that way. It's been known for a long time that there will be DLC for day 1. So whoever's planning DA2 knew they would need something for that.

Now, a stupid project manager might not think about DLC when planning DA2. Then, when it came time to turn something into DLC, he'd have to figure out what to make into DLC. He'd have to have those files pulled from the main build into a separate build, and hope to God that nobody had just assumed that character would always be around when writing cutscenes. And so forth. I'm sure you can see how this could cause problems.

A smart project manager would plan the Day 1 DLC when the game itself was in the planning stage. The writers would then write a character who might or might not be present at any point in the main game, and resources could be allocated to the DLC knowing that it has a different deadline from the boxed game.