237 réponses à ce sujet

[gilgalad80]

HyperLimited wrote...

I'm starting to lose any and all respect for the "old school" crowd when they negatively parade around like this. Never forget what the classics have brought us today, but don't be stuck in the past. Change is a part of life. Face it, embrace it, and move on, or be left in the dust. 

Just because someone doesn't like SPECIFIC changes doesn't mean they're against all change.
"starting to lose any and all respect"?   "old school crowd"?  who's parading?

And please stop equating evolutionary change by natural selection with corporate-driven change.

Modifié par gilgalad80, 03 mars 2011 - 01:17 .

[AustinKain]

Anathemic wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I'm starting to lose any and all respect for the "old school" crowd when they negatively parade around like this. Never forget what the classics have brought us today, but don't be stuck in the past. Change is a part of life. Face it, embrace it, and move on, or be left in the dust. 

Final Fantasy XIII would like to have a word with you.

I'm not part of any 'old school' crowd, though I do agree with the article when it states "why fix it when it ain't broke?" (paraphrased of course).

 
Because they were copying off of D&D and thier own BG series, and wanted to create their own world/lore/rules etc..

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

@ Hathur

Oh Snaps!!!! You done told them. and i agree.

[Anathemic]

Half_Moon wrote...

Wait, these guys played the demo? That's the sum of their experience with the game? All the other major online reviewers had people spending 5 hours on the full game at Bioware headquarters.

Seriously, in the demo, we had our inventories locked. What kind of game website passes judgement on a game after reviewing the demo?

Buddy, y'know the purpose of a demo is to judge right? It's been done many times, demos are released to let the players judge on whether they want the game or not.

[Blastback]

Well, for TOR, that wasn't supposed to be a "classic" RPG, it's an MMO. It has no real buisness being compared to Baldur's Gate.

Yes, I'd like to see some of the old Baldur's Gate era elements return, but not all the changes are bad.

[r2dr]

thesilverlinedviking wrote...

I remember BioWare saying that Dragon Age Origins was supposed to play like the old-school RPGs. I don't remember them ever saying that Dragon Age II was supposed to play like them to.

If in making a sequel you're going to re-genre a game, change it's visual style, game play and setting, then you've got to think long and hard whether you should be calling this ship of theseus you're making a sequel, or whether perhaps starting a new franchise would be better.

[Anathemic]

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I'm starting to lose any and all respect for the "old school" crowd when they negatively parade around like this. Never forget what the classics have brought us today, but don't be stuck in the past. Change is a part of life. Face it, embrace it, and move on, or be left in the dust. 

Final Fantasy XIII would like to have a word with you.

I'm not part of any 'old school' crowd, though I do agree with the article when it states "why fix it when it ain't broke?" (paraphrased of course).

 
Because they were copying off of D&D and thier own BG series, and wanted to create their own world/lore/rules etc..

When did using a simple base formula equate to no innovation?

[Cuthlan]

Darji wrote...

blahblahWitcher 2blahblah

So that's what this really was? A veiled "THE WITCHER 2 IS OMGSOMUCHBETTER THAN DRAGON AGE 2!!!!" thread?

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Anathemic wrote...

Half_Moon wrote...

Wait, these guys played the demo? That's the sum of their experience with the game? All the other major online reviewers had people spending 5 hours on the full game at Bioware headquarters.

Seriously, in the demo, we had our inventories locked. What kind of game website passes judgement on a game after reviewing the demo?

Buddy, y'know the purpose of a demo is to judge right? It's been done many times, demos are released to let the players judge on whether they want the game or not.

Judging whether or not you like certain mechanics in a game is different then writing an editorial stating/implying that Bioware sold out and DA2 is part of the downfall of RPGs for the old school.

[zazei]

Saibh wrote...

I'm sorry, but whenever I hear this, I want to punch people in the face. You know that "classic" RPG mentioned later, KoTOR? Yeah, you weren't allowed to pick the history, race, or "identity" of Revan, either. Mass Effect was mentioned, too. Nope, can't really pick Shepard's history, race, or "identity", either.

I'm pretty sure you couldn't pick the race, history, or "identity" of any of the characters in the Fallout games, either.

You could pick quite a lot of different Backgrounds in Mass effect actually. First you could pick either Earth or Mindoir as a homeplanet for Shepard or you could pick the spacer background with him/her growing up all over the place with alliance parents. Then you could also pick either war hero, survivor or ruthless as the highlight of Shepard's career. While all of these where pretty much forgotten in Mass effect 2 they did have a inpact in the first game. I especially remember loving the "I remember me" quest myself.

You could even do something similar in Kotor thought it was very much forgotten after the first dialog with Task on the Endar Spire and in the end it all turned out to be false memories as well. A better example of why it has nothing to do with classical RPGs though would be Baldur's gate. While you could change race in it they where of the same age no matter what and they all where raised by Gorion.

Personally I don't care either way. The style they used in Mass effect 1 had a lot of potential. However what they did in Dragon Age was probably a bit too much for Bioware unless they want to try something similar to what Trioka did with the Malkavians in Bloodlines where some Clans had totally different dialog options through out the whole game instead of only small differences every now and then.

While this is getting terribly off-topic I would love a Bloodlines 2. Bioware please do a Vampire RPG! 

[Darji]

Cuthlan wrote...

Darji wrote...

blahblahWitcher 2blahblah

So that's what this really was? A veiled "THE WITCHER 2 IS OMGSOMUCHBETTER THAN DRAGON AGE 2!!!!" thread?

No its basicly a Bioware destroys the real RPG genre thread. Because if they succeed many developers will follow. ITs the same with COD in the shooter genre. 


@Zasai: Why do you want to destroy another great IP like Vampires? Just give it to Obsidion^^

Modifié par Darji, 03 mars 2011 - 01:20 .

[dreamextractor]

r2dr wrote...

thesilverlinedviking wrote...

I remember BioWare saying that Dragon Age Origins was supposed to play like the old-school RPGs. I don't remember them ever saying that Dragon Age II was supposed to play like them to.

If in making a sequel you're going to re-genre a game, change it's visual style, game play and setting, then you've got to think long and hard whether you should be calling this ship of theseus you're making a sequel, or whether perhaps starting a new franchise would be better.

Why would they do that, when they have a perfectly good universe to add additional story and lore to?

<_<

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

r2dr wrote...

thesilverlinedviking wrote...

I remember BioWare saying that Dragon Age Origins was supposed to play like the old-school RPGs. I don't remember them ever saying that Dragon Age II was supposed to play like them to.

If in making a sequel you're going to re-genre a game, change it's visual style, game play and setting, then you've got to think long and hard whether you should be calling this ship of theseus you're making a sequel, or whether perhaps starting a new franchise would be better.

It is still an RPG. and the setting is still in the world of DA. also the combat still has alot of familiar elements. So i dont think a change in visual style constitutes creating a new franchise

[Narrsan]

Ooga booga!

[DocSun]

Pcrews wrote...

Ugh I hate these threads. EVERYTHING CHANGES OVER TIME. IF ALL RPG's STUCK TO THE "classIC" FORMULA THAN THEY WOULD ALL BE THE SAME AND PEOPLE WOULD B*TCH ABOUT THAT INSTEAD.

As for ME2 being dumbed down. Most of the talents in the talent trees in ME1 overlapped each other and were just filler more than anything. ME2 just got rid of the useless talents like WOW in cataclysm. Think of it as trimming the fat off a slab of beef. It was not needed.

Lets play classic rpgs where every game is a dungeon crawler and ohhhhh, let's all have random trun based battles and grind for 5+ hours in each area just to be strong enough to take out the next boss. It's soooooo much fun, why did they get rid of that.

As much as you people complain you will buy the game, love it, beat it, than come back to the forums and complain more. Life goes on.

So much truth here... Also I have been taking names of people who say they will never play, dont support or canceled their preorders ... I garentee 90% of those names will have the game regestered within 2 days of release. If they really cared they would vote with their money and not buy it at all... however they have no bite to their bark and will cave and just deal. All they want to do is just complain and moan

[Darji]

zazei wrote...



While this is getting terribly off-topic I would love a Bloodlines 2. Bioware please do a Vampire RPG! 

Why do you want to destroy such a great series? Give it to obsidion they are at the moment the best company for  deep RPGs and good writing.  I am really interested to see what they are doing with Icewind dale 3^^

Modifié par Darji, 03 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Vicious]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Valid points enveloped by general QQing

Why do you want to destroy such a great series? Give it to obsidion they are at the moment the best company for  deep RPGs and good writing.
 

Its pretty obvious you hate Bioware. Except you don't. I think you are a troll, because you don't get on with your life. And you will buy DA2.

Modifié par Vicious, 03 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Anathemic]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Half_Moon wrote...

Wait, these guys played the demo? That's the sum of their experience with the game? All the other major online reviewers had people spending 5 hours on the full game at Bioware headquarters.

Seriously, in the demo, we had our inventories locked. What kind of game website passes judgement on a game after reviewing the demo?

Buddy, y'know the purpose of a demo is to judge right? It's been done many times, demos are released to let the players judge on whether they want the game or not.

Judging whether or not you like certain mechanics in a game is different then writing an editorial stating/implying that Bioware sold out and DA2 is part of the downfall of RPGs for the old school.

Again that's the purpose of a demo, to let players generate an opinion by risking a hands-on experience with the game. Sure you can't judge story elements and whatnot, but you can judge basic gameplay system.

Ever wonder why Bethesda doesn't do demos?
Ever wonder why Blizzard does do demos?

It's a risk, on one hand you get reviews and critiques to generate a current of postitivity the other hand you have the chance to lose sales and whatnot.

[OmegaBlue0231]

Darji wrote...

Ok i will try it and compare it to Baldurs Gate 2. Without mentioning the combatsystem.

First of all the World  itself. Baldurs gates world felt alive it was very very detailed and atmospheric. The same goes for the Witcher 2. They really cared about the world itself. You cant reach every part of the game in one playthrough for example. Or its very open world like in the chapters itself and its only restricted to stronger monsters you just cant beat. Now look at Dragon Age 2: Corridor level, lifeless and no details at all. It looks sterile and souless. Yes even Kirkwall. I posted a video of Kirwall in the day already.

Secondly the depth of the dialoguesystem: Yes its mostly paraphfrased too but still you see another level of detail in these conversations. Its not the good or bad or rival and Friend think . ITs not black and white like in Dragon Age 2. ITs much darker overall yes but the same goes for Baldurs gate.

Next the whole system of crafting, equipment mentionment etc. Every bit of it was cutted out in Dragon Age 2 while you still have all this in a deepsystem in the Witcher 2.

And finally its about the communication with the community itself. Instead like Bioware who almost irgnores everything Origins fans said CD Project listend very carefully to the community. They really cared about the game and the people who will play it. Bioware just rushed it out in less than 2 years. With much repetiotion, and the same areas over and over again. aldurs Gate was a craftmanshio compared to Dragon Age 2. It wasnt rushed the whole series was carefully crafted. Just like the World in The witcher 2.

And thats why old school gamers and RPG fans are much more interested in The witcher instead of Dragon Age 2.

Correction, BioWare has said serveral times they've listen to complaints fans made and tailored DA2 based on that. People complain now because they'd rather make accusations to justify them holding on to the past and resisting change at all cost even if it might turn out to be better than Origins.

Also those are some pretty big statements considering that's all specilations because neither game is out.

Modifié par OmegaBlue0231, 03 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[falconlord5]

Anathemic wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I'm starting to lose any and all respect for the "old school" crowd when they negatively parade around like this. Never forget what the classics have brought us today, but don't be stuck in the past. Change is a part of life. Face it, embrace it, and move on, or be left in the dust. 

Final Fantasy XIII would like to have a word with you.

I'm not part of any 'old school' crowd, though I do agree with the article when it states "why fix it when it ain't broke?" (paraphrased of course).

What's your problem with FFXIII? Love that game.

[AustinKain]

Anathemic wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I'm starting to lose any and all respect for the "old school" crowd when they negatively parade around like this. Never forget what the classics have brought us today, but don't be stuck in the past. Change is a part of life. Face it, embrace it, and move on, or be left in the dust. 

Final Fantasy XIII would like to have a word with you.

I'm not part of any 'old school' crowd, though I do agree with the article when it states "why fix it when it ain't broke?" (paraphrased of course).

 
Because they were copying off of D&D and thier own BG series, and wanted to create their own world/lore/rules etc..

When did using a simple base formula equate to no innovation?

I am not saying that. Go back and look at all the pre DA:O press and  you will see the spiritual succesor to BG line alot.  Then go on to say that in the future they want to get away from that and go on thier own direction.

The problem is that there are so many gamers that dont like change that when we got the old school rpg we went into nostalga mode. Now that the second part to thier plan is in effect we all forget what they said 2 years ago, and complain that they are doing excalty what they said they were going to do.

[Narrsan]

Boo!

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

zazei wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'm sorry, but whenever I hear this, I want to punch people in the face. You know that "classic" RPG mentioned later, KoTOR? Yeah, you weren't allowed to pick the history, race, or "identity" of Revan, either. Mass Effect was mentioned, too. Nope, can't really pick Shepard's history, race, or "identity", either.

I'm pretty sure you couldn't pick the race, history, or "identity" of any of the characters in the Fallout games, either.

You could pick quite a lot of different Backgrounds in Mass effect actually. First you could pick either Earth or Mindoir as a homeplanet for Shepard or you could pick the spacer background with him/her growing up all over the place with alliance parents. Then you could also pick either war hero, survivor or ruthless as the highlight of Shepard's career. While all of these where pretty much forgotten in Mass effect 2 they did have a inpact in the first game. I especially remember loving the "I remember me" quest myself.

You could even do something similar in Kotor thought it was very much forgotten after the first dialog with Task on the Endar Spire and in the end it all turned out to be false memories as well. A better example of why it has nothing to do with classical RPGs though would be Baldur's gate. While you could change race in it they where of the same age no matter what and they all where raised by Gorion.

Personally I don't care either way. The style they used in Mass effect 1 had a lot of potential. However what they did in Dragon Age was probably a bit too much for Bioware unless they want to try something similar to what Trioka did with the Malkavians in Bloodlines where some Clans had totally different dialog options through out the whole game instead of only small differences every now and then.

While this is getting terribly off-topic I would love a Bloodlines 2. Bioware please do a Vampire RPG! 

all those personal quests for the backstory of ME Shepard were available whether or not you had that background. i played "i remember me" even when i didnt have it as my back story.

[Merced652]

falconlord5 wrote...

I agree with Skilled Seeker, the part about SWTOR is pure BS. It's an MMO for pete's sake, doesn't have a damned thing to do with consoles or the so-called classic RPG.

But it does with the general idea that they are chasing the money since WoW "opened" up that whole market and exposed an extra.. say 10 million people to MMOs. They want a peice of the market since you get 50-60 dollars just from its box sales and then a extra 15-16 every month. Its retarded to think about how much better a successful MMO is compared to a successful single player rpg franchise is. WoW itself in a straight up competition based on monetary gain would've burried Bioware. Thats one game vs an entire company. So making a MMO very much smacks of show me the money.

[MKDAWUSS]

More and more we see games being transformed to cater for only one type
of player and quite frankly, many of them are starting to become
unidentifiable from each other. Publishers want you to play the game as
quickly as possible so you can move on and buy their next title.
Ultimately though, this way of doing business will hurt the industry as a
whole. A storm is brewing and it’s one that publishers are calling on
themselves.

I believe this was the case in the 90s where sequels were churned out each year. The industry thrived and survived then.

Ahhh, Gaming During the Clinton Years...