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[TheAzureVanguard]

Is anyone else absolutely devasted and hearbroken about the revelation regarding Miranda in the LoTSB?

I'm crushed. Why would Bioware do such a thing to such an amazing woman?  For her to not be able to have kids is just unacceptable.  

I really hope Bioware fixes this or gives avenues for changing this condition in Mass Effect 3.  Part of the fun and excitement of romancing her is the possiblity of having children with her. Perfect little miniSheps and miniMiri's running around the Normandy SR 3 or whatevs...

I mean Shepard and Liara are allowed to have kids but Shepard and Miranda can't? That's NOT fair at all Bioware.

And just to be clear I'd fully support Tali and Shepard having children as well (if biological/dna wise it was possible).

 

[Xilizhra]

True, but an analysis of the dossier, given her iPartner doings, may signify that she does want some.

[DWH1982]

I feel bad for her, but, you know, there are people who can't biologically have children. It's a part of life, and I feel like these sorts of hurdles add depth to a character.

If Miranda WANTS to have kids, I'd imagine there are other ways to go about it. We have any number of ways to address infertility in today's world, so I imagine by the 2180s there are a lot more.

Also, there's always adoption. If Miranda is in a relationship with an Earth born Shepard, especially, I feel that this is a point he would raise.

[008Zulu]

If she were genetically designed to be infertile/sterile then there isnt much that could be done. The closest she could do would be to make a genetic clone with some of her prosepective partner's genes coded in to the mix.

[DWH1982]

008Zulu wrote...

If she were genetically designed to be infertile/sterile then there isnt much that could be done. The closest she could do would be to make a genetic clone with some of her prosepective partner's genes coded in to the mix.

If she were involved with someone and really wanted a child, I don't see why she wouldn't view this as an option.

I think that's the key thing to keep in mind.  It's the 2180s. I can't imagine that being infertile really means that, one way or another, she can never have a kid.

[TheAzureVanguard]

True thats why I'm holding onto hope that there might be some medical breakthough or loophole that allows her to conceive a child or for her eggs to be implanted in someone else but still be her and Sheps child biologically.

I just think it was really out of nowhere for Bioware to do that to her. Especially since shes one of my favorite characters and I think a lot of other peoples too.

[DWH1982]

I didn't mind it, but then again I didn't do a romance playthrough for her until just recently (even though she is one of my favorite characters). It was a surprise, yes, but I really don't expect Shepard to know everything about Miranda. Even if he's romancing her, it seems like she's someone who would take a long time to open up about things... and who maybe will always have things that Shepard won't know about.

I do think if they were going to do this with the character, it would have been better to wait until they could reveal it via conversation, though.

[brightblueink]

I sort of liked finding that out. Not because I necessarily want pain for Miranda, or anything, but I thought it added a bit more to her character, and the explanation made sense to me. It was one of the more interesting revelations in the LotSB, IMO.

I don't think it's singling out Miranda, either, since the possibility of kids are pretty low and/or impossible for several love interests. Tali, Thane (who's near death and probably wouldn't want to leave behind another wayward kid even if he could), Garrus...and we don't even know if any of the other LIs are even interested in kids besides Liara. (At least IIRC.)

In the end, I thought it was a nice touch. Some women can't have children no matter how much they wish to. And as others have pointed out, there's other options, like cloning and/or adoption. I think those would be great choices, too.

[33percent]

If they have technology to bring shepard back from the dead, they can easily give miranda the ability to have kids. Now you can imagine anything in ME future regarding perfection like special enlargements. It's hard for me to choose from miranda, and ashley. As for miranda having that goddess ass/boobs of hers it's so distracting while trying to shoot the bad guys. Only problem I have with miranda is that she has no personality it's like cardboard.

As for ashley her kickass personality is sexy as hell. She always wants to kill or blow **** up, dosen't give a f*** about anything else. Hell I was trying to work a deal with Wrex trying to calm him down, then she ends up blowing off his head. I was like damn girl you have more balls than me.

I was surprised reading that as well that she can't have no kids. After reading that well if I can't have kids with her then what good of use is she? fun sex. Then it gets old after a while then find a new girl. That kelly chick is more entertaining, no love bull just lap dance, strip tease. Wish Miranda would lapdance for shepard like kelly.

Then I'm like alright since I can't get her prego, and make super engineered kids. Im gonna break up with miranda, do it with tali, break up with her then settle with Ashley.

[magelet]

33percent wrote...
If they have technology to bring shepard back from the dead, they can easily give miranda the ability to have kids.

This is a flawed argument. Just because you have the technology to do one thing doesn't mean that you can thus do all things.

Anyway. I thought it was an interesting choice to make Miranda infertile. It can emphasize why she resents her father; that even though she was supposed to be perfect, she still has flaws.  It did strike me as odd that she would want to have kids, particularly right before a friggin suicide mission...

[Xilizhra]

I was surprised reading that as well that she can't have no kids. After reading that well if I can't have kids with her then what good of use is she? fun sex. Then it gets old after a while then find a new girl. That kelly chick is more entertaining, no love bull just lap dance, strip tease. Wish Miranda would lapdance for shepard like kelly.

Um...
What the hell?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 mars 2011 - 03:16 .

[Corpsetorn]

Miranda's not the "mother" type...

Though perhaps a lot of her demeanor has to do with that revelation.

Modifié par Corpsetorn, 03 mars 2011 - 03:40 .

[JaylaClark]

008Zulu wrote...

If she were genetically designed to be infertile/sterile then there isnt much that could be done. The closest she could do would be to make a genetic clone with some of her prosepective partner's genes coded in to the mix.

Quick note on this -- it seems to be unlikely to me that Miri was designed to be sterile, even if that's implied or stated in the dossier, for the obvious reason that her father wanted a dynasty, or at least stated as such.  Of course it could be he intended to impress upon Miri the need for doing just the same as he did via genetic engineering... feel free to ignore me if this has been explicitly stated yet, but I remain skeptical if it has not.

Still, I'm sure that if Miri wanted a child... I see her as the type that wouldn't hesitate to adopt.

[JaylaClark]

Xilizhra wrote...

I was surprised reading that as well that she can't have no kids. After reading that well if I can't have kids with her then what good of use is she? fun sex. Then it gets old after a while then find a new girl. That kelly chick is more entertaining, no love bull just lap dance, strip tease. Wish Miranda would lapdance for shepard like kelly.

Um...
What the hell?

Y-eah.  Seconded, Xil.  That's ... from someone who really has trouble finding dates.  Not that I can talk, but it's not from that kind of mindset.

[ozwarrior]

speaking of which why are there no kids in mass effect universe? perhaps cause all places shepard visits are adult only...

[DWH1982]

I guess we just don't see them.

In the case of Feros, I just told myself that the colony was too new. Because the alternative - being attacked by children who are bieng mind controlled, and being forced to decide whether to fight back - would be too unpleasant to imagine.

EDIT: To stay on topic, I'm not sure I agree that Miranda would be a bad mother.

Just because she's cold and distant to others doesn't mean she would be the same to her child. I agree, it's something she should carefully think about... but I just don't think the case is closed that she wouldn't be able to raise a kid.

I think if Shepard romances her, she does start to warm up to the rest of the world, anyway, at least if what Liara says is true.

Modifié par DWH1982, 03 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

I see the dossier(s) as jokes, that are not going to have any impact on ME3 at all.

Also, it's the future and I'm sure her problem could be solved, if she wanted it.

[Sinapus]

JaylaClark wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I was surprised reading that as well that she can't have no kids. After reading that well if I can't have kids with her then what good of use is she? fun sex. Then it gets old after a while then find a new girl. That kelly chick is more entertaining, no love bull just lap dance, strip tease. Wish Miranda would lapdance for shepard like kelly.

Um...
What the hell?

Y-eah.  Seconded, Xil.  That's ... from someone who really has trouble finding dates.  Not that I can talk, but it's not from that kind of mindset.

Actually, I think you're confusing cause and effect. Having trouble finding dates doesn't cause that attitude. Having that attitude can cause problems in finding dates, but there are other factors that can lead to that.




@ozwarrior: Due to some of the things that happen in the game, it's probably a good thing. Finding smaller burned-out corpses on Eden Prime would be... troubling.

Modifié par Sinapus, 03 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[Lestatman]

I must admit my view on Miranda when I read those notes. Feel really sad for her as not just her inability to have children but her looking for romance meaning she's lonely in the inside.

[brightblueink]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

I see the dossier(s) as jokes, that are not going to have any impact on ME3 at all.

I don't think they're going to be "jokes"--far too many of them, from Miranda's infertility to Jacob's last message from his father to Thane's love letter to Sheperd for when he dies (if you romance him) are...plain not funny. That being said, I do agree that most if not all of them probably won't have a major impact on the next game's storyline, they're mostly meant to be little bits of canon data for the fans.

[abnocte]

I tought it was a nice addition to her personality, and would like to see what Bioware does with this info in ME3.

I also think that it kind of "makes sense" she can't have children, she is her "father"'s clone, with added genetic material to make her female. So her being unable to create viable eggs is not farfeched at all.

She also says that she wasn't the first her father created, just the first he kept. That lead me to believe that cloning a man and adding what's needed to create a female ( plus other stuff to make her perfect ) is a science in an early state of development.

I also have a hard time seeing Miranda cloning herself with added Shepard's genes, It would be not that much different from how her father created her, even though the reason behind it are totally different.

Who knows, may be one of the reasons Oriana was created was because Mirandas' father got a report by the doctors that she couldn't have children, and may be if Oriana is fertile she can be used as a donor...they are genetic twins, it would be as if Miranda was the mother....

[Ieldra]

Here are some things I have, at different times, written about Miranda's infertility:

I fully appreciate Miranda's genetic engineering. I think that her father did something desirable in the spirit of human advancement when he created her, and only nullified any merit he might have claimed for it by his underlying ideology and by the way he treated her as a child. Completely apart from the personality I have come to love, Miranda represents an advancement of humanity. I like to imagine that her improved traits eventually will make their way into the human gene pool at large through her offspring.

So, in a purely genetic and impersonal way, I *want* her on that pedestal. I *want* her to be the forerunner of a kind of human advancement that has nothing to do with political domination, and everything with improving individual capabilities and understanding through human ingenuity.

For that reason, I want her to be fully functional as a human woman. That she is not flawless in her reasoning we know, we also know that she has serious problems due to her upbringing. It is enough. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that a character must be loaded with flaws to be sympathetic, and I find it one of the most contemptible human traits to refuse sympathy to someone especially gifted unless that person has some trait that completely cancels that out.

This explains why, even though her infertility will not influence the relationship any of my Shepards has with her one bit, and not lessen in any way my regard for her, I nonetheless hate her infertility with a passion.

I don't mind Miranda having some permanent medical condition. I mind her having exactly this medical condition because it would make that "human advancement" angle die in its infancy, making her, indeed, the end of it. Or so I've thought until I realized that her father's technology would be a means to create biological children of her own.

In the end it's all about the big picture. As for the personal, I want a reasonably happy ending for Miranda, with or without children, it doesn't really matter. She is and stays my favorite character with or without the infertility. I don't see it as insulting, though it is heavy handed and generally disagreeable. What I mind, that's the possible intention on Bioware's part of precluding anyone from interpreting Miranda's genetic engineering as something both desirable and successful in the long term, for humanity. As I do that and will continue to do it, I feel that my interpretation of Miranda's background is punished by the developers. That's the insult.

Anyway, as for ways around the problem, while medical knowledge and technology aren't perfect in the ME universe, it's simply not believable that an infertility caused by a simple condition is something you can't get around with the level of biotechnology we have witnessed in the game. Which way exactly, that remains to be seen. I've come to prefer jtav's scenario that Miranda will be able to use her father's methods to make biological children of her own, counteracting the flaws in her own upbringring by being a better parent that her father was to her. That would indicate that she's made peace with who and what she is, and bring home the fact that the flaw does not lie in the origin but in the upbringing. That's a message I'd like to see sent.

Against the argument that her improvements are superficial:

Miranda has quite a few non-superficial improvements:

"I heal quickly and I'll likely live half again as long as the average human"
"My reflexes, my strength, even my looks -- they're all designed to give me an edge"

You can also tell she's engineered to be more intelligent.

I agree that the way she was advertised is one-sided.

Against the argument that she needed this to be "humanized"

Grr... I hate this argument with a passion. She was fine as she was. She doesn't need to be infertile to make people understand her. And she definitely didn't need to be "humanized" Gods, how I hate this term. Miranda is human enough, thrice damn it!

If people can't deal with a confident woman they should look for someone else. If they have the need to drag every companion down below their own level - and the need to do this indicates a very low level indeed - they should look for someone else.

Yes, it was intended to make people go "poor Miranda". It is not a negative way to put it, it *is* negative to start with.

As for a solution: It is not believable that the woman who brought a man back from the dead is unable to come up with way to have a child if she wants to. But anyway, in my view the best way to deal with it is to give us a number of options in an after-the-end conversation (like those after the final battle in the throne in DAO), where we can basically define how things stand by making Shepard say, for instance, one of these things:

Option 1: I never wanted children anyway, and I can't see you as a mother.
Option 2: You brought me back from the dead. Curing you shouldn't be a big problem now that we've got the time.
Option 3: We'll have to live with it - but humanity owes you for that sacrifice, and I won't let them forget it.

While I'm at it. I have read several posts over the time where people said they'd break up with Miranda because of this. That's their prerogative of course, but her infertility does not reduce her great personality one bit, it does not take anything away from her attraction, it does not make her in any way less fascinating - and it also does not make her more sympathetic. She already is - as Samara says - a woman with many burdens she doesn't choose to share (Samara adds "as it should be"). So I refute any claim that this problem was in any way "necessary", as some people say, to make her more accessible. Those who needed that to make it so weren't looking deeply enough.