So, why did the Howes betray the Couslands. The only reference to why I can find (on the Dragon Age Wiki or out of memory) is a line where Nathaniel claims the Couslands would "sell out" to the Orlesians. What is he refering to? Did Rendon attack the Couslands as a part of Loghain's plot, and did this have to do with the Couslands allying with the Orlesians?
(Origins) and (Awakening)- Howe's Betrayal
Débuté par
Nio Shobu
, mars 03 2011 02:20
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 02:28
thesuperdarkone
-
- Members
- 1 745 messages
Word of God states that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's attack or even knew about it. Based on what he says and toolset info, I guess he killed the Couslands since he was always jealous of them since they always got benefits and fame he felt should've been his. Howe simply made up the excuse about the Couslands being traitors to justify the massacre. Felt good killing him with the Cousland Sword and shield
#3
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 02:29
war4n0th1n9
-
- Members
- 79 messages
The Couslands weren't selling out to the Orlesians, they were marching to support the King in the battle against the blight. This gave Arl Rendon Howe the chance to take out the heads of the Couslands and destroy their order, gain the lands and help weaken the support the king would get. A plot by Loghain.
Nathaniel's claims are later proven false by his sister.
Nathaniel's claims are later proven false by his sister.
#4
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 02:31
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
Loghain had nothing to do with it, even if he did take Howe as a political ally after it happened.
Howe betrayed the Couslands because he was jealous of their success (grander title, more lands, more riches, maybe even their happy family life) and he wanted what they had. Or wanted to destroy what they had.
Howe betrayed the Couslands because he was jealous of their success (grander title, more lands, more riches, maybe even their happy family life) and he wanted what they had. Or wanted to destroy what they had.
#5
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 02:34
TJPags
-
- Members
- 5 694 messages
Howe was a greedy, grasping bastard who felt power and accolades should be given to him over others. He was a miserable, pathetic man who was jealous that the Couslands ruled the Teryn and not his family, and angered that his contribution to the rebellion - after his father had sided with the occupiers - was not more greatly rewarded.
He deserved to die a thousand deaths, each more gruesome than the last.
He deserved to die a thousand deaths, each more gruesome than the last.
#6
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 04:13
Emperor Iaius I
-
- Members
- 1 158 messages
While I agree with the above, Lord Amaranthine does have a line where he complains to the Cousland Warden about Highever's trip(s) to Orlais. I have a save nearby where I could check the lines directly, but he seems to be upset at the fact that the Teryn was visiting the Orlesians and/or partaking in their luxury. I wouldn't be suprised if Amaranthine was jealous of that too.
#7
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 04:24
TJPags
-
- Members
- 5 694 messages
Emperor Iaius I wrote...
While I agree with the above, Lord Amaranthine does have a line where he complains to the Cousland Warden about Highever's trip(s) to Orlais. I have a save nearby where I could check the lines directly, but he seems to be upset at the fact that the Teryn was visiting the Orlesians and/or partaking in their luxury. I wouldn't be suprised if Amaranthine was jealous of that too.
This is true. And I do think that during the HN origin your mother . . or maybe your father . . makes reference to having been in Orlais recently.
Is this a reason to slaughter the whole family, though? I think not.
There is also at least one noble in Amaranthine during Awakening that refers to missing his Orlesian silks due to the disruption of the road from Denerim. So it's hardly only Bryce Cousland who has been to Orlais. There's clearly trade between the countries, and trade includes visits on occassion.
To me, this is just an excuse for Howe. He's pathetic.
#8
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 05:20
lx_theo
-
- Members
- 1 182 messages
He was jealous. That was the real reason. Though there was a strong (for him) supporting reason of selling out to Orlais.
They talked numerous times about vacations the Couslands took to orlais, the interactions they were taking.
Now, they generation is the one who fought against Orlais for independence, and afterward they either lived in bitterness against them adn hated them outright (Loghain, Howe) or they moved on to having friendly relationship as the neighboring country they were (Couslands, Arl Eamon).
He was bitter about a feeling of betrayal for association with the Orlesians mixed with the fact that the Couslands still did a lot better in terms of success.
They talked numerous times about vacations the Couslands took to orlais, the interactions they were taking.
Now, they generation is the one who fought against Orlais for independence, and afterward they either lived in bitterness against them adn hated them outright (Loghain, Howe) or they moved on to having friendly relationship as the neighboring country they were (Couslands, Arl Eamon).
He was bitter about a feeling of betrayal for association with the Orlesians mixed with the fact that the Couslands still did a lot better in terms of success.
#9
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 05:46
DPSSOC
-
- Members
- 3 033 messages
TJPags wrote...
There is also at least one noble in Amaranthine during Awakening that refers to missing his Orlesian silks due to the disruption of the road from Denerim. So it's hardly only Bryce Cousland who has been to Orlais. There's clearly trade between the countries, and trade includes visits on occassion.
To me, this is just an excuse for Howe. He's pathetic.
To be fair there is a difference between trade (business) and buddying up with the nobility. I believe Howe resented Bryce's position, wealth, and perhaps family (we find out his wasn't exactly great) and probably felt betrayed by the Couslands palling around with Orlesian nobility. Keep in mind these are two men who spent the majority of their lives under the thumb of the Orlesians; for Bryce to just sweep that aside in a relatively short time could come across as disrespectful to those who had sufferred.
Not trying to paint Howe in a gentler light, the man's a snake and a weasel (a sneasel if you will), but it's possible he was motivated by more than a power grab.
#10
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 06:07
Emperor Iaius I
-
- Members
- 1 158 messages
Certainly. We're all willing to acknowledge that he was also delusional and petty.
#11
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 06:55
wickedgoodreed
-
- Members
- 713 messages
Here's some dialogue with VO notes that give some insight into Rendon's motivation:
HN Warden: Why betray us, Howe? My father was your friend!
Howe: A clumsy appeal, child. He was a traitor to me and a coward to his nation! Trips to Orlais, gifts from old enemies; all while I sank in obscurity. (Disgusted "You don't know how the world works. His hard work squeezed me out of my money and fame.")
Howe: Your family squandered glory that was rightfully mine. How suitable that their deaths should raise me to the ear of a king. (Venomous, turning to what he believes is justification. "You cheated me out of my free ride. I'm only taking what I deserve.")
And here's his character description from the toolset:
"Howe is the calculating villain, the man who stands next to the throne and whispers into the King's ear. He will never be obvious about his intentions, but behind his smiling exterior he is always scheming to increase his own power without any regard for who he harms to do so. He is vain, superior and cultured as well as possessed of a streak of sadism that is expressed only in private."
Based on that, I think Howe's real gripe with the Couslands was that they were wealthier and more powerful than he was. I doubt he really cared about their business associations with Orlais other than wishing he had gotten there first. His focus on their "treason" is just a cover to mask his true intentions and motivations (lust for wealth, fame, and power).
HN Warden: Why betray us, Howe? My father was your friend!
Howe: A clumsy appeal, child. He was a traitor to me and a coward to his nation! Trips to Orlais, gifts from old enemies; all while I sank in obscurity. (Disgusted "You don't know how the world works. His hard work squeezed me out of my money and fame.")
Howe: Your family squandered glory that was rightfully mine. How suitable that their deaths should raise me to the ear of a king. (Venomous, turning to what he believes is justification. "You cheated me out of my free ride. I'm only taking what I deserve.")
And here's his character description from the toolset:
"Howe is the calculating villain, the man who stands next to the throne and whispers into the King's ear. He will never be obvious about his intentions, but behind his smiling exterior he is always scheming to increase his own power without any regard for who he harms to do so. He is vain, superior and cultured as well as possessed of a streak of sadism that is expressed only in private."
Based on that, I think Howe's real gripe with the Couslands was that they were wealthier and more powerful than he was. I doubt he really cared about their business associations with Orlais other than wishing he had gotten there first. His focus on their "treason" is just a cover to mask his true intentions and motivations (lust for wealth, fame, and power).
Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 03 mars 2011 - 06:55 .
#12
Guest_The Water God_*
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 08:38
Guest_The Water God_*
Guest_The Water God_*
-
- Guests
I also thought that aside from the couslands fascination of Orleasians, Howe wanted to get rid of them because the Couslands would obiviousley be handed the throne in the case that King Cailan died.
#13
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 10:45
Stazro
-
- Members
- 210 messages
Howe's last words are "I deserve more..." or similar, aren't they? I suppose the Couslands were just a stepping stone on the way to his "deserved" greatness and it did work, didn't it? Rendon Howe, the Teyrn of Highever...
#14
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 11:25
AresXX7
-
- Members
- 1 432 messages
IIRC it was "Maker spit on you...I deserved more". (or something like that)
I only wish I could have been able to record what happened with the dog afterwards...
As luck would have it, I interacted with the pooch and in the cutscene - he was doing the "leg lift", if you know what I mean, right over Howe's dead body.
I only wish I could have been able to record what happened with the dog afterwards...
As luck would have it, I interacted with the pooch and in the cutscene - he was doing the "leg lift", if you know what I mean, right over Howe's dead body.
#15
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 12:40
sylvanaerie
-
- Members
- 9 436 messages
AriesXX7 wrote...
IIRC it was "Maker spit on you...I deserved more". (or something like that)
I only wish I could have been able to record what happened with the dog afterwards...
As luck would have it, I interacted with the pooch and in the cutscene - he was doing the "leg lift", if you know what I mean, right over Howe's dead body.
Good puppy!
#16
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 05:01
LT123
-
- Members
- 770 messages
Just fought Howe. I was sure I remembered a dialogue option along the lines of "My family's memory drove me to you" but couldn't find it as a HNF. Maybe I clicked the wrong options? What options do you have to pick to get that line?
#17
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 05:07
wickedgoodreed
-
- Members
- 713 messages
LT123 wrote...
Just fought Howe. I was sure I remembered a dialogue option along the lines of "My family's memory drove me to you" but couldn't find it as a HNF. Maybe I clicked the wrong options? What options do you have to pick to get that line?
Just checked the toolset. From what I can tell, in order to get that line you have to have confronted Howe when he and Loghain show up together at Arl Eamon's Denerim estate.
#18
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 05:14
Ferretinabun
-
- Members
- 2 691 messages
wickedgoodreed wrote...
LT123 wrote...
Just fought Howe. I was sure I remembered a dialogue option along the lines of "My family's memory drove me to you" but couldn't find it as a HNF. Maybe I clicked the wrong options? What options do you have to pick to get that line?
Just checked the toolset. From what I can tell, in order to get that line you have to have confronted Howe when he and Loghain show up together at Arl Eamon's Denerim estate.
I believe there might be some sort of bug at work here. ejoslin's ZDF mod has a fix for Howe's lines here. Might be an idea to check if only to see what the issue is...
#19
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 05:20
Corker
-
- Members
- 2 766 messages
DPSSOC wrote...
the man's a snake and a weasel (a sneasel if you will), .
Corker approves +3
#20
Posté 04 mars 2011 - 07:41
LT123
-
- Members
- 770 messages
Huh. I'm pretty sure I picked the "blood rights, this man murdered my family" line at Eamon's in the conversation with Loghain and Howe, if that's the trigger. I have ZDF and Dialogue Tweaks.
Edit: The new version of ZDF fixed it. Hooray!
Edit: The new version of ZDF fixed it. Hooray!
Modifié par LT123, 04 mars 2011 - 07:49 .
#21
Posté 05 mars 2011 - 07:25
Nio Shobu
-
- Members
- 12 messages
Thanks everyone for the insights. I think I understand now and it will be cool to play the game again and consider all of these things.
#22
Posté 05 mars 2011 - 09:04
Jedi Master of Orion
-
- Members
- 6 914 messages
I have to admit, my first guess would have been that he knew Loghain's plan and would have been collaborating with him or something. It seemed rather convenient for him that the one person who would have punished him for his treachery a was betrayed and killed right before he was about to do so. If Loghain didn't know anything about Howe's plans then it seems like Rendon Howe got insanely lucky that Loghain had a treacherous plan of his own. Otherwise his greedly murderous masterplan would have incredibly short lived.
Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 mars 2011 - 09:05 .
