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Destructoid DA2 article and why bioware doesn't get it


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#1
Darth Executor

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http://www.destructo...es-194234.phtml

We saw a lot of people disengaging at hour one, hour two. Not pursuing it, right?" explains Laidlaw. The Dragon Age team might have chalked some of those lost players up to rentals, but the statistics didn't back it up: a significant number of people simply stopped playing Dragon Age: Origins after a few hours.


Sounds like a problem, right? After all when you put a lot of hard work into a product you want people to play it for a little more than an hour or two. Their solution:

"I think what it really spoke to is something RPGs have been
wrestling with for a long time: that first impression," says Laidlaw.

So they fixed it, right? No more boring, endless filler combat. No more stabbing or hacking a guy 10 times before he dies. No more 2-3 hours of excruciating filler combat before the game proper even starts. Right?

"You get to an RPG and fire it up, and ... it hits you in the face with a
thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally
or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in
the game," he says.


:pinched:

DA had 6 attributes, a handful of derived stats and a pretty simple skill/talent system, most of which were not even available to a level 1 character. Now it's possible that a beginner might find it daunting. However, Laidlaw says they played for an hour or two. You know what that tells me? That they figured out how to play the actual game, even if at a superficial level and are not, in fact, daunted by the stats anymore. The first hour or two generally covers:

The origin
The wilderness
Ostagar Tower

Now, I'll readily admit that on average, I drop my characters somewhere along those lines. I've finished ostagar tower with two, maybe three characters. So I know what those people feel, I was just perseverent enough to get a couple of mages past Ostagar. I will say it outright that after the origins (which vary wildly in quality, with the mage one probably being the worst one of those I played so far, which is sad because I find the other classes virtually unplayable) comes the most tedious and boring part of the game. Exploring the wilderness and especially ostagar is full of filler battle with HP bloated enemies that take forever to finish, generally provide very little challange, and due to the low level of your character your options are pretty much spamming the same handful of abilities over and over and over. I can see why people quit. And what has Bioware done to correct this? When I loaded up the DA2 demo I enjoyed the exaggerated intro part. I thought "finally, the dark spawn are easy to kill. it's ok for the game to be full of filler combat because they're entertaining to kill and I will presumably still have somewhat challenging boss battles ahead of me."

As soon as the exaggerated intro tutorial was over my face splattered all over the cold asphalt of reality. Dark spawn were, in fact, as tedious and boring to kill as in origins. The more EXCITING animations were just a gimmick that quickly wore off. Bioware has not, based on the demo, learned its lesson at all. HP bloated enemies that are a pain to kill are still there. Review tales of woe regarding repetitive caves just bring back horrible nightmares of the ruined temple or the deep roads or ostagar. As the underlying issues with the system have not changed merely by adding EXCITEMENT and AWESOME to the visuals, I suspect the kind of person who is unwilling to put up with the tedium will not suddenly change with DA as well. The Bioware dev team's insistance that some of the players are somehow too stupid to comprehend DA's fairly simple stat system (or worse, accidentally changes difficulty levels or friendly fire toggles) is not just supremely condescending but outright wrong. So there it is, some concrete feedback from a player who has abandoned DA within an hour or two a lot more often than he has bothered to stick to it. I never finished it and I wonder if I will ever bother to. I certainly won't even buy DA2 barring a sudden 180 on design policy and either the reduction of pointless filler combat or the reduction of enemy (and player, to keep it fair) HP bloat so they end quickly and brutally.

Modifié par Darth Executor, 03 mars 2011 - 02:37 .


#2
syllogi

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You mean "Destructoid", you should probably edit your thread title before people think your post is about a file sharing site.

#3
Anathemic

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Can you... reword that?

#4
coolide

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How about the short version.

#5
The Night Haunter

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You do realize that you just said you hate Western RPGS? NWN, BG, etc are all FULL of filler battles and random exploring. Thats kinda almost the point of a western rpg (Story being THE point).

So it sounds to me like you just don't like rpgs and in that case no DA game will ever really be for you. Sorry.

But personally as an rpg fan all the things that you found 'tedious' I found enjoyable. So more of the same (or reasonably the same) is fine by me.

Edit:
I also notice you said you hate enemies with a bunch of life. Good news for you, an ability will 1 shot many mobs, and plenty of AoE to kill em all at once. Its only bosses (sub-bosses and lieutenants) that have bunches of HP. and thats to make the game fun. If it took 15 seconds to kill a boss how fun would a game be?

Modifié par ghostmessiah202, 03 mars 2011 - 02:39 .


#6
AustinKain

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Oh wow you are another hater and just came on here to bash bioware and DA.

#7
Darth Executor

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TeenZombie wrote...

You mean "Destructoid", you should probably edit your thread title before people think your post is about a file sharing site.


Yeah, thanks. Fixed.

#8
Coldest

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If you play on the easiest mode, Varric's narrative doesn't break and you're a legend from start to finish.

#9
Anathemic

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I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...

#10
AustinKain

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Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.

#11
JrayM16

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You know, a lot of people say that the stats aren't that complicated, but let me tell you this. I had a friend who bought Origins and stopped after about 10-15 minutes cause he just didn't wanna deal with the stats. ANd he was a pretty hardcore gamer. Loves games, play them all the time.

There is some credence to Bioware's claims.

#12
Darth Executor

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ghostmessiah202 wrote...

You do realize that you just said you hate Western RPGS? NWN, BG, etc are all FULL of filler battles and random exploring.


I did not complain about filler battles or random exploring. I didn't even mention exploring and I complained about tedious, boring filler combat. BG2 (never played 1) had relatively little filler combat and the fights ended quickly and brutally, which is how it should be. NWN had more filler fights but they ended pretty fast too. DA takes the tedium to a whole different level.

I also notice you said you hate enemies with a bunch of life.


No, I said I hate the fact that every enemy has a lot of life. Some abilities can 1 shot or nearly 1 shot one enemy, but that still leaves half a dozen to a dozen in the current encounter and the fact that I have to repeat the process over and over 20 times on every map screen.

#13
DTKT

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One interesting element is that, in DAII, you get to play the game before actually creating your character.

Pretty interesting choice.

(or I might just be missing something)

#14
Clover Rider

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JrayM16 wrote...

You know, a lot of people say that the stats aren't that complicated, but let me tell you this. I had a friend who bought Origins and stopped after about 10-15 minutes cause he just didn't wanna deal with the stats. ANd he was a pretty hardcore gamer. Loves games, play them all the time.

There is some credence to Bioware's claims.

Why do you think Pokemon hides most of it's stats:whistle:.

#15
andar91

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I like the filler as long as it isn't excessive. Furthermore, the tough enemies don't feel as bad as they Origins' ones were, but we're only judging on a demo.

I don't think that Mike means that the people who quit didn't understand the stats (although that's possible in some cases); I think he was referring to an overall sense of exhaustion. The speed of combat (slow) and amount of stats (big-6 stats, armor/weapon values, attack speeds, armor/defense, attack/damage, resistances, and probably more) could all contribute to a sense of fatigue. In order to understand the game systems, you had to work really hard for very little visceral reward. For all of the stats present, combat for warriors and rogues often came down to auto-attack, auto-attack, auto-attack, auto-attack, auto-attack, Might Blow (which takes several seconds, auto-attack, auto-attack. You get my point. Mages lucked out.

#16
C9316

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:ph34r:[spam post removed]:ph34r:

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 03 mars 2011 - 09:32 .


#17
Darth Executor

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JrayM16 wrote...

You know, a lot of people say that the stats aren't that complicated, but let me tell you this. I had a friend who bought Origins and stopped after about 10-15 minutes cause he just didn't wanna deal with the stats. ANd he was a pretty hardcore gamer. Loves games, play them all the time.

There is some credence to Bioware's claims.


The people mentioned in the article played for quite a bit more than 10-15 minutes. I'm not saying there are no people like that, I'm saying the ones he seems to want to gain are likely more turned off by the poor quality of DA's encounters than of the stat system.

#18
Suron

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AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


actually worse..WRPGs tend to have the filler sure...but you don't have to gind to proceed.

how many JRPGs are you required to grind levels somewhere on randoms before you can tackle the next boss/area?

Final Fanties come to mind the most....

so yah..I agree with some of this..but overall...it's contradictory and not well put together at all.

#19
Dr. wonderful

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Filler is good.


But do you want sawdust or Nutella?

#20
Darth Executor

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AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


I've never played a single jRPG for more than 15 minutes.

#21
Dr. wonderful

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Suron wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


actually worse..WRPGs tend to have the filler sure...but you don't have to gind to proceed.

how many JRPGs are you required to grind levels somewhere on randoms before you can tackle the next boss/area?

Final Fanties come to mind the most....

so yah..I agree with some of this..but overall...it's contradictory and not well put together at all.


It's called Final Fantasy.

Also the Dragon Quest series....Oh god the Dragon Quest series.

#22
andar91

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Darth Executor wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


I've never played a single jRPG for more than 15 minutes.

Posted ImagePosted ImageWell, what games do you typically play?

#23
Ace Attorney

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The TLDR version for the rest Of you: OP likes RPGs with quick kills, like the ones from Japan. Nothing wrong with that, I like them too, but realize DA is a Western RPG.

#24
Suron

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Darth Executor wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


I've never played a single jRPG for more than 15 minutes.


then what's the point?

oh..troll.

reported as such.

you obviously just don't like RPGs..so why are you here?

oh yah..the troll thing.

#25
Darth Executor

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andar91 wrote...

Darth Executor wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...


Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.


I've never played a single jRPG for more than 15 minutes.

Posted ImagePosted ImageWell, what games do you typically play?


western rpgs. The occasional shooter or rts thrown in.