333 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

Blackened25 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Zlarm wrote...

Let me help Mr. Laidlaw out and tell him why I think a lot of people only played a couple of hours before giving up.

You heavily marketed DA:O as an action game (instead of what it really was) and so people who like action games and not so much RPGs bought it. Soon after starting it up they realized it wasn't like anything they saw in the ads, and that they'd been hoodwinked into buying a game they didn't like and stopped playing it.

Yeah, DA was RPGish. I actually played it yesterday, a mage, and it felt like big time improvement and enchanted version of DA2, which is like some bad ninja karate game.

How was the saying? Different muffins for different folks? Now just give me a mod which will make rogue yell "KIAI" when he uses the roflstomp ability and a mod which makes batman style big "WHOOSH" "BANG" "SPLAT" "LOL" "HEADSHOT" rolling texts during combat. DA2 is missing those essentials for the genre.

It's funny how changing the graphics and adding a few over the top animations to a game can make it feel so different, even though the basic combat system is more or less the same. I duno, I don't think DA2 is going to a bad game. It better not be, Bioware has my 60 bucks for preorder (not to mention another 16 for a shirt, they just keep sucking the money out of my pocket lol). I'm just going to try to play it as the game it is, and not measure it against Origins. If I go that route, i'll just get frustrated and bother all my friends again with my venting

It is not so funny as it is interesting. This word "immersion" got a whole new meaning and value for me after I tried DA2. Before that RPGs were immersive for me. In DA2 there was so serious lack of immersion in "RPG" that I realized at times bad graphics are better than good graphics because you can use your imagination to make up for it.

And that said, hell, even Resident Evil in PS was more immersive "RPG" than DA2 

Ninja Kung-fu in DA2 is total immersion killer for me.

Anyway, enough of ranting from my side. Should delete this account alltogether.

[blothulfur]

Kind of agree with the op in that i'm tired of so much combat in crpgs for the past decade or so, hell even the old ultimas that introduced moral choices and philosophies into the mix had your fair bit of grinding included however I can understand that a lot of people play the games for the combat and seek to excel at increased levels of difficulty (done so myself in a few action rpgs).

Therefore I can kind of just glaze over and endure the combat to get to the next bit of story or interaction that interests me, of course massive glaring breaks in immersion jar me out of the trance such as two handed swords that do less damage than a tickle stick weilded by a pacifist pixie but thats for another discussion.

Short version: well that's just like your opinion man.

[koshiee]

destructoid is the worst. they cater to a very specific gamer demographic so i'm not surprised by this.

[AkiKishi]

blothulfur wrote...

Kind of agree with the op in that i'm tired of so much combat in crpgs for the past decade or so, hell even the old ultimas that introduced moral choices and philosophies into the mix had your fair bit of grinding included however I can understand that a lot of people play the games for the combat and seek to excel at increased levels of difficulty (done so myself in a few action rpgs).

Therefore I can kind of just glaze over and endure the combat to get to the next bit of story or interaction that interests me, of course massive glaring breaks in immersion jar me out of the trance such as two handed swords that do less damage than a tickle stick weilded by a pacifist pixie but thats for another discussion.

Short version: well that's just like your opinion man.

I like a challenge, what I don't like is the same encounter just with 10 times more hp's you doing .5 damage and them doing *2. That's not a challenge, that's just tedious.

I'm with you on that one. Combat is just a means to an end , it's not why you are doing what you doing.

[Rawgrim]

Yrkoon wrote...

Shinimas wrote...

Darth Executor wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

The TLDR version for the rest Of you: OP likes RPGs with quick kills, like the ones from Japan. Nothing wrong with that, I like them too, but realize DA is a Western RPG.

This is not a TLDR version at all.

I like RPGs who have the decency to make the pointless. endless trash mobs thrown at me easy to kill so playing isn't a chore. You know, like well known japanese RPGs Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter nights, Fallout 1-3, Morrowind, Oblivion, the Might and Magic series, etc.

Baldur's Gate 2, NWN?

Those games have far harder "trash" enemies than you typical DA2 Hurlock.

That's not true at all.    The amount of absolutely pointless trash mobs in BG2 was so  frequent, and so intentionally frequent,   That the devs   even   put   spells in  the game   specifically designed to take them all out, instantly so that you wouldn't have to waste your time if you didn't want to.  (Death Spell, Cloud kill, Symbol of Death etc.)

And Neverwinter nights....  Are you kidding me?  about an hour away from the end of the game and you're still exploring caves swarming with  16hp  Orcs....

The devs didn`t create any spells designed to kill mobs. all of the spells are from the pen and paper Forgotten Realms setting. They were developed for high level spellcasters, wanting to kill a whole bunch in one go. Not to make sure players dont waste their time, in a potential computer game based on the setting\\rule-set.

[Veracruz]

Graunt wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

I like the demo of DA 2 but after playing it many times, and not as much as some other people here, the intro system doesn't seem to be designed with replayability in mind.

Someone could argue that it's only a few minutes at best but I would prefer those minutes actually playing the "real" game.

Did you happen to play Mass Effect 2?  It had a much longer and obnoxious "intro" that was way too long, and I dreaded having to go through it any time I wanted to try out something new.  The events in the DA2 are like a sneeze in comparison.

 I haven't played ME 2 in a while (I'm replaying DAO now) but I think that I remember of leaving the computer playing the intro while I was doing something else. What sucks of ME 2 is that mini game about joining dots with the same symbol. I would take a unskippable intro twice the lenght of the ME 2's one in exchange of getting rid of that mini game. I hate it, just in case no one noticed. Hell, I would take the Mako for a ride.

Off topic, sorry.

The cinematics are easy to skip in Dragon Age if we want to so no problem with them. The Legendary combat isn't (that I know of) and it actually does nothing for the game, which once you have done it with the different classes a few times, just sucks.

[FlintlockJazz]

I haven't been through the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't think the issue is that the mobs should be easier, but rather that the fights should be meaningful and interesting and not used to pad out the game.

We all like RPG combat, we wouldn't get RPGs otherwise, but repeating the same thing ad nauseum will get to anyone. Fights should be varied, interesting and have meaning beyond "yet another mob". Of course, this is presuming a perfect world, and alas I am the only perfect thing in this world...

[blothulfur]

Indeed ideally i'd like every fight to be taxing, different and immersive with new rewards opened for the tactics you used, the lore you researched on your opponent and the resolution of the conflict but that would be a nightmare to bloody code and would probably not be as popular amongst the majority.

I'm kind of getting used to the fact that what I want in a game is being rather rapidly abandoned by developers, but then again for the first twenty years or so of crpgs I was spoiled for choice so I can't complain too much.

[Blackened25]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Shinimas wrote...

Darth Executor wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

The TLDR version for the rest Of you: OP likes RPGs with quick kills, like the ones from Japan. Nothing wrong with that, I like them too, but realize DA is a Western RPG.

This is not a TLDR version at all.

I like RPGs who have the decency to make the pointless. endless trash mobs thrown at me easy to kill so playing isn't a chore. You know, like well known japanese RPGs Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter nights, Fallout 1-3, Morrowind, Oblivion, the Might and Magic series, etc.

Baldur's Gate 2, NWN?

Those games have far harder "trash" enemies than you typical DA2 Hurlock.

That's not true at all.    The amount of absolutely pointless trash mobs in BG2 was so  frequent, and so intentionally frequent,   That the devs   even   put   spells in  the game   specifically designed to take them all out, instantly so that you wouldn't have to waste your time if you didn't want to.  (Death Spell, Cloud kill, Symbol of Death etc.)

And Neverwinter nights....  Are you kidding me?  about an hour away from the end of the game and you're still exploring caves swarming with  16hp  Orcs....

The devs didn`t create any spells designed to kill mobs. all of the spells are from the pen and paper Forgotten Realms setting. They were developed for high level spellcasters, wanting to kill a whole bunch in one go. Not to make sure players dont waste their time, in a potential computer game based on the settingrule-set.

Agree with this. What you see in Baldur's Gate was a symptom of 2nd edition rules. 2nd edition d&d was pre challenge rating, and there really were no defined rules for what made a good encounter. Going by some of the vague guidelines, higher level parties could easily expect to see (and handle) very large numbers of weaker creatures. In order to actually gain appreciable xp, you'd have to kill an absoloute ton of them. I didn't run my games this way, but the edition seemed to encourage it. I don't recall the 16hp orcs near the end of NWN, but It's been so long that I could be mistaken.

Modifié par Blackened25, 03 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Will Doherty]

Lumikki wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

I'm really not being glib, exactly what do you envision doing in a RPG game of your dreams, in between all the cutscenes and dialog choices?

For my vision of RPG is about role-playing. Not statical gameplay to find optimal character by using calc sheets to crush numbers.

When I read your posts about what you want in a game, I can't help but think you want more of a Heavy Rain style game, where you mostly direct the cutscenes and watch a movie unfold with no gameplay between the full motion video.

Nothing wrong with that, I didn't play Heavy Rain, but it was a fun game to watch my friend play.

I would have liked to play "Heavy Rain", but I play games only on PC, not on consoles. But yeah, for me it's story and also about ability do what you like as make choises. Combat can be in RPG or be without it, it makes no difference, it's all about story where player play's role.

Now DA2 style may not be my taste, but I don't say it's not fine RPG to someone.

Lumikki wrote...

Here is Seed mmorpg, made by role-players for role-players. Doesn't exist anymore, but it did not have combat at all.

I see you're a little bit confused about terminology:

RPG - you choose a role, supported by stats, and use that to define the weay you're playing.

LARP - live action role playing - this is where you imagine things, then play according to what you imagined. You don't need PnP systems nor computer video games for that. The simplest way is to lie down on your bed, close your eyes and imagine whatever you want, even threesome with your brother/sister Hawke and Varric

[Kidd]

I very much agree with the OP. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed DAO combat overall, but there was just too much of it. In the end I put the game on Casual for future playthroughs just so 90% or so of my play time wouldn't be consisting of fighting random mooks on my way to somewhere important.

While it's true there's lots of filler battles in BG as well, it simply doesn't detract as much because the game runs faster. It doesn't take as long to swing your sword for instance. Walking between mobs is faster, too. Everything's faster, mostly cause there's basically no animations to speak of by today's gaming standards =) With the Robe of Vecna, you can instacast fireballs to kill most enemy groups in 0.1 seconds or so. That doesn't happen in DAO, instead we get a fight that's almost like a minute long. A minute doesn't sound like much when you say it that way, but when you've fought 10 darkspawn groups already and see your 11th, the groan out of your throat seems inescapable.

This bored me, and I'm a huge BioWare fan (aren't we all, since we post here?). If not even I can deal with it, I can't imagine that many who actually enjoy the battle system, the characters, the plot and even the looting, will.

btw, shoutouts to Maria Caliban for a bunch of really great posts in this thread.

[Zeroed55]

Darth Executor wrote...
Now, I'll readily admit that on average, I drop my characters somewhere along those lines. I've finished ostagar tower with two, maybe three characters.

Stopped reading there.

cool story bro

[Lotion Soronarr]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Interesting thread.

I'm going to agree a little with the OP if a game has "trash" mobs in droves I want to kill them with as little effort of possible. It's not like I'm ever going to lose the fight anyway, so why make me jump through hoops just to move on.
The FF games (not so much the last one) are good examples of this, anything not a challenge can be dismissed with a click or 2. The mini bosses are harder, and the real bosses play out like self contained puzzles. For example, use fire to open shell, adsorbs X elements etc. Immume to stuff like death. I don't want to put in that sort of effort every 30 seconds on trash. For me combat in an RPG has always been a means to an end, not the purpose.

Personally, I hate trash mobs. I want every battle to be a challenge. Insted of facing waves fo 20-30 eneimes that are eaily dispatched, Id' rather fight 4-5 that are challenging enough.

[moilami]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I haven't been through the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't think the issue is that the mobs should be easier, but rather that the fights should be meaningful and interesting and not used to pad out the game.

We all like RPG combat, we wouldn't get RPGs otherwise, but repeating the same thing ad nauseum will get to anyone. Fights should be varied, interesting and have meaning beyond "yet another mob". Of course, this is presuming a perfect world, and alas I am the only perfect thing in this world...

Tower of Ostagar and Deep Roads, hmm, what do you expect? An empty tower except the ogre waiting in the upper floor for ADHD adventurer? Deep Roads? An empty  tunnel to the boss room?

Trash mobs and big areas add immersion. Deep Roads was great, it gave an illusion of great ancient Dwarven Kingdom. The same goes with Elven forest and temple. In Tower of Ostagar darkspawn had captured it and defended it. It gave plenty of immersion even though I was puzzled what tactical value the tower had for Darkspawn to capture and defend it. Maybe they were just looting it. Anyway, it is better to capture and defend the tower than to let the enemy keep it is defensive stronghold.

 mass ADHD gaming. Glad there is Flight Sims. Long live flight sims! May the masses never taint the last line of immersive gaming!

[Riloux]

I don't like using the word troll, but I suspect you are confused. I don't think you like RPGs at all. RPGs are about tactical long-winded combat, not mindless button mashing resulting in one shots. You say you like FPS games; I think you should stick to those.

Modifié par Riloux, 03 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[HoonDing]

Dragon Age 2 or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the A-button.

[Harorrd]

Oh yeha, Bioware are lazy, and took away 40 hours of gameplay

[Insom]

You want an action game and not an RPG it seems.

[sevalaricgirl]

Did Bioware actually question these people on why they didn't finish the game? I'm not a hard core gamer and I have played the game 17 times and finished 16 times and there are many others like me. The fantasy genre just may not be everone's cup'o tea. Those who are into shooters will probably only play DA for an hour or two and get bored. My hubby, who likes strategy games, doesn't like all the dialogue. It had nothing to do with leveling up and stats. I think Bioware is wrong. I think sub groups, Shooters, Strategists, etc will not play DAO because they are not rpg gamers, It's as simple as that.

[Bundin]

Hello hostile community. My god, someone posts something negative about DA and tons of replies dismiss the post instantly with a 3-word post indicating they consider the op a "troll", or that he's playing the wrong game. The "troll" actually put in the effort to give us the reasons for his opinion, as opposed to many of the overly defensive and dismissive replies.

On topic: Combat is fun, hell it's an essential part of an RPG for me. RPGs are all about improving your character, progressing through the story and being able to overcome bigger challenges. Combat-challenges as well as non-combat (dialogue, choices, etc) challenges. If I'm carrying a big sword, I want to use it too!

I liked the combat in DA:O. Played the game on hard on my first playthrough, always played tactically. I'm used to playing like that from the old BG/NWN times where running in without a plan = dead party members and using that 1/day resurrection spell your cleric/druid has. Those experiences made me a careful DA player, spending 100 hours on first playthrough doing as many quests as possible, exploring stuff, and spending more time with the game paused in combat than unpaused.

BUT there just was too much similar combat in DA:O. Many packs containing some melee + some ranged + 2 casters. These encounters usually did not need any special tactics or tricks to beat, and that makes them tedious after you've won a few times. There's no progression other than dishing out some xp and maybe an interesting bit of loot. No need to change something different, just follow the same routine as the previous trashpack and you're done after a minute or 2.

Now, a dungeon can't be nearly deserted, that'd break immersion even more than 10 carbon copy combat encounters. But I'd prefer 3 very different combats over 10 similar ones. Make me think out of the box, use the terrain or objects nearby, give me a horde of easy to kill followed by an encounter with nothing but tanks... but not just another 5 melee + 4 ranged + 2 casters copy.

Riloux wrote...

I don't like using the word troll, but I suspect you are confused. I don't think you like RPGs at all. RPGs are about tactical long-winded combat, not mindless button mashing resulting in one shots. You say you like FPS games; I think you should stick to those.

Tactical long-winded, sure. But not the same tactical long-winded encounter 10x. Then it's just boring. And if it's just you hitting mobs without much risk of dying because you play tactically, then high hp pools are detrimental. There's no challenge, they won't ever kill you, but it still takes time to kill them.

[AkiKishi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Personally, I hate trash mobs. I want every battle to be a challenge. Insted of facing waves fo 20-30 eneimes that are eaily dispatched, Id' rather fight 4-5 that are challenging enough.

If you go into the more tactical RPGs like FF:Tactics, Ogre:Tactics and FireEmblem, that's pretty much what you get.

Because that does not seem to translate so well into real time in RPG terms, I'll stick with wanting the trash gone with minimum effort. Of course a developer could suprise me and get it right. 

Bundin wrote...

Tactical long-winded, sure. But not the same tactical long-winded encounter 10x. Then it's just boring. And if it's just you hitting mobs without much risk of dying because you play tactically, then high hp pools are detrimental. There's no challenge, they won't ever kill you, but it still takes time to kill them.

Bingo. That is the worst possible design.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 mars 2011 - 12:45 .

[PinkShoes]

if you hate enermies with lots of life play on casual. There you go i sorted out all your problems :3 Your welcome.

[rob_k]

Not going to really reply to the original post, but this bit I found interesting in the detructoid article:

While dense, opaque games like Ultima steered BioWare toward gentler entry points, games like Planescape: Torment guided writer David Gaider as he started drawing out the story and characters of Dragon Age II. Unlike Origins, whose protagonist is malleable blank slate, DAII features Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, complete with his own backstory and character arc.

(The above is particulary interesting because one review, swedish one I think, drew comparisons to Planescape's story I believe. Even if the story may not be as good, drawing comparisons to Planescape can only be taken as a compliment.)

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 01:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Personally, I hate trash mobs. I want every battle to be a challenge. Insted of facing waves fo 20-30 eneimes that are eaily dispatched, Id' rather fight 4-5 that are challenging enough.

[/quote]

If you go into the more tactical RPGs like FF:Tactics, Ogre:Tactics and FireEmblem, that's pretty much what you get.

Because that does not seem to translate so well into real time in RPG terms, I'll stick with wanting the trash gone with minimum effort. Of course a developer could suprise me and get it right.  [/quote]

It translates well, it's just not implemented right.

Recall BG2 discussion where people found fighing against other parties challenging and satisfying?
Not fights agaisnt gigantic ogres or other monsters - fighting against 6 other well-equipped and well-trained humans (or humanoids)


One of the best things about BG2 was that you and he enemy played by the same rules.


[quote]
[quote]Bundin wrote...

Tactical long-winded, sure. But not the same tactical long-winded encounter 10x. Then it's just boring. And if it's just you hitting mobs without much risk of dying because you play tactically, then high hp pools are detrimental. There's no challenge, they won't ever kill you, but it still takes time to kill them.[/quote]

Bingo. That is the worst possible design. [/quote][/quote]

That's how I view the Ogre in the DA2 demo..
I sick Aveline on it to keep it busy, and fight off the hurlocks.
Once all the hurlocks are dispatched, I turn around to see Aveline and the Ogre STILL at it..

In all the demo playtroughs the ogre never killed anyone. Hurlocks swarming around it were more threatening.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 mars 2011 - 01:56 .

[hekalite]

Darth Executor wrote...


DA had 6 attributes, a handful of derived stats and a pretty simple skill/talent system, most of which were not even available to a level 1 character. Now it's possible that a beginner might find it daunting. However, Laidlaw says they played for an hour or two. You know what that tells me? That they figured out how to play the actual game, even if at a superficial level and are not, in fact, daunted by the stats anymore. The first hour or two generally covers:

The origin
The wilderness
Ostagar Tower

And yet if that were the case, they would have gotten some achievements.  

""They weren't even getting an Achievement," Laidlaw continues. The team was tempted to chalk those dropped players up to rentals, but the stats made it clear that people simply dropped the game.

So that means they didn't even finish the origin story.  I'd say from that data it's reasonable to conclude that people might be having trouble getting the hang of things.  You only need to make a single potion or poison, or pick a lock to get an achievement.  If you are poking around you might do that by accident.