333 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

"They weren't even getting an Achievement."

Oh, the horror! The unspeakable horror of being denied achievements!

[Skyweir]

rob_k wrote...

Not going to really reply to the original post, but this bit I found interesting in the detructoid article:

While dense, opaque games like Ultima steered BioWare toward gentler entry points, games like Planescape: Torment guided writer David Gaider as he started drawing out the story and characters of Dragon Age II. Unlike Origins, whose protagonist is malleable blank slate, DAII features Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, complete with his own backstory and character arc.

(The above is particulary interesting because one review, swedish one I think, drew comparisons to Planescape's story I believe. Even if the story may not be as good, drawing comparisons to Planescape can only be taken as a compliment.)

I know! This was a huge hype generator for me. 
I have been rather dismissive of a lot of the gameplay stuff in DA2, espeically lack of friendly fire outside of nightmare, but if the story is anywhere comparable to Planescape, I will not care one figg if the game turns out to be a horrible God of War clone.

[Bundin]

PinkShoes wrote...

if you hate enermies with lots of life play on casual. There you go i sorted out all your problems :3 Your welcome.

Then you don't seem to get the point. If you lower difficulty, you remove the challenge of combat.

The main issue is the lack of challenge. Imagine this: a dungeon with a statue blocking the way. It has enough hitpoints to take 90 seconds to destroy. No problem, you smash it to pieces. There's no challenge, the statue won't ever hit back, you run no risk of death whatsoever. But it still takes 90 seconds to destroy. Now imagine turning the corner and seeing  9 more of those statues in the way. Fun? I don't think so. No challenge in combat = no fun after the first few times. Then it's just a chore that you can't avoid if you want to progress with the story.

Lowering the difficulty setting = no challenge = boring.
Having to do the same encounter 10x = no challenge after you figured out how to beat it = boring.

That's the point that people have tried to make in this topic. The same bunch of darkspawn over and over again gets old. It stops being fun after a while. We don't want an easier game, we want a less repetitive game. That can be achieved by either removing the repetitive encounters, or by adding more variation in the encounters so that they require a different approach every time.

[DarkAngel1979]

Suron wrote...

how many JRPGs are you required to grind levels somewhere on randoms before you can tackle the next boss/area?

Final Fanties come to mind the most....

The last FF that actually released in order in the USA (wasn't a back port of an older game) where you had to grind to proceed ahead was FF2 (FFIV). For all the others afterwards, as long as you didn't run away from random encounters, you got enough XPs, gold and gear just from walking from point A to point B. And I'm pretty sure that WRPGs of that time also had grinding issues (the Gold Box series comes to mind).

Modifié par DarkAngel1979, 03 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[AkiKishi]

DarkAngel1979 wrote...

Suron wrote...

how many JRPGs are you required to grind levels somewhere on randoms before you can tackle the next boss/area?

Final Fanties come to mind the most....

The last FF that actually released in order in the USA (wasn't a back port of an older game) where you had to grind to proceed ahead was FF2 (FFIV). For all the others afterwards, as long as you didn't run away from random encounters, you got enough XPs, gold and gear just from walking from point A to point B. And I'm pretty sure that WRPGs of that time also had grinding issues (the Gold Box series comes to mind).

Grinding is pretty much optional unless you want to take on the bonus bosses or something like that. I normally finish FF's between 40-50 and I've never had any real trouble with the end boss, it's taken a while though compared to being 99.

[Rawgrim]

DarkAngel1979 wrote...

Suron wrote...

how many JRPGs are you required to grind levels somewhere on randoms before you can tackle the next boss/area?

Final Fanties come to mind the most....

The last FF that actually released in order in the USA (wasn't a back port of an older game) where you had to grind to proceed ahead was FF2 (FFIV). For all the others afterwards, as long as you didn't run away from random encounters, you got enough XPs, gold and gear just from walking from point A to point B. And I'm pretty sure that WRPGs of that time also had grinding issues (the Gold Box series comes to mind).

The might and magic games springs to mind. I have no idea how many hours I spent grinding for XP in those games, just to be able to finally wipe out a room filled with 50 druids\\warlocks etc.

[Gvaz]

DKJaigen wrote...

I see your problem, your playing the wrong game. you should play WOW they have the challenge you so badly desire.
Also a game desnt neccisarly have to challenge you. Some games loke DAO and DA2 are more like books and movies for the sole purpose of entertainment.

You mean DA2 and ME2. I'm thinking more Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or KOTOR.

[Gvaz]

hekalite wrote...

So that means they didn't even finish the origin story.  I'd say from that data it's reasonable to conclude that people might be having trouble getting the hang of things.  You only need to make a single potion or poison, or pick a lock to get an achievement.  If you are poking around you might do that by accident.

Or it could even be that a bunch of people did an origin, then stopped playing them and chose one to be their main to beat the game with.

Could even be that marketing drummed up people with that stupid THE NEW SHET campaign who weren't interested in a game like DA:O anyways

Marionetten wrote...

"They weren't even getting an Achievement."

Oh, the horror! The unspeakable horror of being denied achievements!

Nice red herring bro, miss the point some more would you?

Modifié par GvazElite, 03 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[DKJaigen]

GvazElite wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

I see your problem, your playing the wrong game. you should play WOW they have the challenge you so badly desire.
Also a game desnt neccisarly have to challenge you. Some games loke DAO and DA2 are more like books and movies for the sole purpose of entertainment.

You mean DA2 and ME2. I'm thinking more Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or KOTOR.

i like baldurs gate , kotor and hordes of the underdark but i do find da 2 and me2 a better game. Tastes are a entirly personal you may like bg and kotor more. i like da2 and me2 more

[Marionetten]

GvazElite wrote...

Nice red herring bro, miss the point some more would you?

The point being that the modern gamer requires everything to be served on a silver platter, you mean?

I got that just fine, thanks. Seems like you need to brush up on your reading comprehension a tad, bro.

Modifié par Marionetten, 03 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Thiefy]

you know i dont know why a lot of people are giving the opening post flak. he has stated a valid concern and did so without flaming or coming off over emotional, yet people still call him a troll? what the heck, it's like no one is allowed to criticize the game. =/

i kind of share the same opinion as him but not so much on my behalf as on behalf of other people i know who love to play all sorts of games but ended up putting down a great game like DAO just because the difficulty was too much and they weren't getting enough story/character interaction compared to the amount of killing that they had to do. Of course there's not THAT much grinding in DAO but when you die all the time and constantly have to restart, quests stretch out a lot longer than what they really are.

Another problem is when you get locked into certain quests and can't backtrack to a different area to level up or buy better gear/more healing items. It's a problem for people who aren't used to timed healings and spells when you get locked into an area fairly early in the game. Mage Tower anyone? And God forbid you take the Dwarf quest first and get locked in the deep roads as a newb, oh the agony.

i had a lot of problems with difficulty when i first started too, and if i wasn't particularly stubborn, i probably would have done the same as my friends and quit early on. i'm glad i stuck with it because the game was totally worth it but how can i really sit there and justify to my friends to play a game they aren't having fun with? yeah, there ought to be some challenge to make things interesting but by the same token, the intros should also be fun enough that people want to continue past them.

anyway, everyone has their own gripes, but i fail to see how he came off as a troll just because someone else didn't like his opinion. now i'm just waiting for someone to scream "I'm reporting you!" because they didn't like my opinion or the fact that i agree with a "troll".

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 03 mars 2011 - 02:49 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Good post, good article, wrong place to post - you won't see any good discussion that might dare discussing bad sides of Dragon Age: Rise to Power on a forum that's crawling with fanboys.

Bioware Social Network works exactly like RPGCodex, with the difference that opinions are turned by 180°.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 03 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[Wynne]

Skyweir wrote...

rob_k wrote...

Not going to really reply to the original post, but this bit I found interesting in the detructoid article:

While dense, opaque games like Ultima steered BioWare toward gentler entry points, games like Planescape: Torment guided writer David Gaider as he started drawing out the story and characters of Dragon Age II. Unlike Origins, whose protagonist is malleable blank slate, DAII features Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, complete with his own backstory and character arc.

(The above is particulary interesting because one review, swedish one I think, drew comparisons to Planescape's story I believe. Even if the story may not be as good, drawing comparisons to Planescape can only be taken as a compliment.)

I know! This was a huge hype generator for me. 
I have been rather dismissive of a lot of the gameplay stuff in DA2, espeically lack of friendly fire outside of nightmare, but if the story is anywhere comparable to Planescape, I will not care one figg if the game turns out to be a horrible God of War clone.

Sweet mother of Andraste, YES.

I really think the gameplay will get more fun on later levels, as they can throw more at you--I liked the Hayder fight better than the ones against the darkspawn--but I swear, I wouldn't give a flying crap if I enjoy this story half as much as Planescape, and it'll definitely be more than half already since I can play a female character (that always makes it better for me.) 

I wonder if the choices really are sort of Witcher-style. I think I would almost die of happiness. A Bioware RPG with Witcher-choices, Planescape-esque story and characters, tighter gameplay, better graphics...

I had best start brainwashing myself that this game is going to suck, because if I don't, then it could never live up to my expectations. They're seriously getting too high. Well, I'm sure they'll go back down again if we find out we can't save after the prologue and before character creation.

[rob_k]

Wynne wrote...

Skyweir wrote...

rob_k wrote...

Not going to really reply to the original post, but this bit I found interesting in the detructoid article:

While dense, opaque games like Ultima steered BioWare toward gentler entry points, games like Planescape: Torment guided writer David Gaider as he started drawing out the story and characters of Dragon Age II. Unlike Origins, whose protagonist is malleable blank slate, DAII features Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, complete with his own backstory and character arc.

(The above is particulary interesting because one review, swedish one I think, drew comparisons to Planescape's story I believe. Even if the story may not be as good, drawing comparisons to Planescape can only be taken as a compliment.)

I know! This was a huge hype generator for me. 
I have been rather dismissive of a lot of the gameplay stuff in DA2, espeically lack of friendly fire outside of nightmare, but if the story is anywhere comparable to Planescape, I will not care one figg if the game turns out to be a horrible God of War clone.

Sweet mother of Andraste, YES.

I really think the gameplay will get more fun on later levels, as they can throw more at you--I liked the Hayder fight better than the ones against the darkspawn--but I swear, I wouldn't give a flying crap if I enjoy this story half as much as Planescape, and it'll definitely be more than half already since I can play a female character (that always makes it better for me.) 

I wonder if the choices really are sort of Witcher-style. I think I would almost die of happiness. A Bioware RPG with Witcher-choices, Planescape-esque story and characters, tighter gameplay, better graphics...

I had best start brainwashing myself that this game is going to suck, because if I don't, then it could never live up to my expectations. They're seriously getting too high. Well, I'm sure they'll go back down again if we find out we can't save after the prologue and before character creation.

Knew I'd seen it somewhere with regard to one of the reviews:

http://social.biowar...index/6212985/1

Marionetten wrote...

As said, they didn't go too deep into
gameplay. They did however seem very pleased with the story telling.
Pleased enough to compare it to Planescape: Torment's. Most of their
issues lied with the plot itself. Apparently the game lacks a major
antagonist until the very end. They said that most of the game was spent
in Kirkwall running errands for the three factions. Qunari, Circle and
Chantry. Yes, apparently we can side with the Qunari.

In any case, you folks go right on arguing etc. and ignoring the positive points of the game. I'll stop discussing the story and Planescape here as it's off-topic as it relates to the thread title. However, I guess it is sort of on-topic with still discussing the destructoid article.

Anyways, I might create a thread to discuss it to stop derailing this. Hopefully one's not been made already.

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

 I agree with the OP. I been playing western RPG since the Commodore 64 and never have I played an RPG with more unnecessary, unrealistic, and boring filler combat. Its also true the game’s system and the level scaling boosted hit point levels to the point where there was a lot of haking and not much intensity. People are saying go play a JRPG and I don’t get it. You spend as much time battling waves of sidescroller type filler with gobs of HP as you you would grinding in an JRPG. DA:O was the only RPG that I simply quit out of boredom. Had nothing to do with stats.   

[AkiKishi]

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

 I agree with the OP. I been playing western RPG since the Commodore 64 and never have I played an RPG with more unnecessary, unrealistic, and boring filler combat. Its also true the game’s system and the level scaling boosted hit point levels to the point where there was a lot of haking and not much intensity. People are saying go play a JRPG and I don’t get it. You spend as much time battling waves of sidescroller type filler with gobs of HP as you you would grinding in an JRPG. DA:O was the only RPG that I simply quit out of boredom. Had nothing to do with stats.   

JRPGs have ways to remove the basic encounters if you choose to do that. Of course if you get to a boss and then get you ass handed to you too bad, but the option is there.
Western RPGs have never had that option as far I'm aware.

If I feel I get nothing from an area I just pop a "holy water" and nothing below my level pops up. Even Pokemon does it.  There are some where the enemy is represented on screen, but those enemies are easy to dodge if you don't feel like fighting.

[termokanden]

I don't understand what you mean by HP bloated enemies. If you are playing on normal difficulty or below, they die almost instantly. If you turn up the difficulty that might be a different story. But then we're not talking about the baseline experience anymore.

I also find it interesting that we are told how easy those HP bloated enemies are. A lot of people have been bashing DAO for being too hard/complicated. You can't possibly win in this world. Make a gentle introduction and enemies are too easy to kill. Do it differently and the game is too difficult.

I also think the following quote is utterly ridiculous:

You get to an RPG and fire it up, and ... it hits you in the face with a
thousand stats. Those stats are very cool, but you may not be mentally
or emotionally prepared to deal with them as your first thing to do in
the game

If you are not mentally or emotionally prepared to deal with a simple selection of stats and abilities, then this is probably the wrong genre for you.

Modifié par termokanden, 03 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[nikki191]

AustinKain wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

I can't even properly grasp what the OP said...

Basically hes not a fan of Bioware or DA, and is more suited to the JRPG.  Even though most JRPGs have a ton of filler combat and grinding between story as well.

i tend to find the jrpg's have more random combat filler encounters than the western ones. personally i found the combat over pretty quick in DAO.

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...



I disagree. All the complexity of the old Infinity Engine games is done completely under the hood. As far as player input is concerned, Dragon Age is much more complex than Baldur's Gate. It's also a lot more fun to play.

False. Fun we cant debate. I had much more fun in BG but thats me. There was so much removed from the Infinity Engine.

Day and Night cycles, ability to steal from and kill civies
(don’t tell me about pick pocketing), 6 person parties, ability to bash chest,
death of party members, encumbrance, individual inventories. Ability to skirmish without enemy health replinshing and it didnt have level scaling so that Winter Wolf you fought at 2nd level was a different experiance at 5th. 

[Gvaz]

Marionetten wrote...

GvazElite wrote...

Nice red herring bro, miss the point some more would you?

The point being that the modern gamer requires everything to be served on a silver platter, you mean?

I got that just fine, thanks. Seems like you need to brush up on your reading comprehension a tad, bro.

Herp derp, I have the attention span and intelligence of a gnat - the average console gamer

"well, i guess if we have to make money we have to appeal to these people" - Publishers

"**** all those guys, if they're too stupid don't hold their hand. They can find another hobby" - PC gamers

[gingerbill]

AustinKain wrote...

Oh wow you are another hater and just came on here to bash bioware and DA.

yep . Theres a small bunch of these strange people who like to waste there lifes talking about a game they hate . Strangely they all play them for hundreds of hours and then say they hated it.

i guess every RPG ever made is a load of crap according to that site. Think i will dismiss there opinion as a load off made up nonsense , never heard of them .

[abat223]

If they have some glitches in DA2 that allow duping, etc, the OP will be able to stat buff himself to one hit kill status on just about everything but bosses..

After my 10th or so play through in DAO I decided to use those tomes to superbuff my stats and it kept game fast and fun for many more play throughs

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

BobSmith101 wrote...


JRPGs have ways to remove the basic encounters if you choose to do that. Of course if you get to a boss and then get you ass handed to you too bad, but the option is there.
Western RPGs have never had that option as far I'm aware.

If I feel I get nothing from an area I just pop a "holy water" and nothing below my level pops up. Even Pokemon does it.  There are some where the enemy is represented on screen, but those enemies are easy to dodge if you don't feel like fighting.

There are plenty western RPGs that let you avoid encounters. All of the fallouts, the Infinity Engine games, NWN SoZ, TES. That stuff is just as common in western RPGs. This comparison to JRPGs is silly. “If you don’t like DA:O
play JRPGs”.

That’s so baseless. That’s just a bunch of junk DA:O fans
were throwing out because they could not dispute what the OP was saying. Why would anyone want to grind if they dont like worthless filler? 

[JJDrakken]

Bundin wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

if you hate enermies with lots of life play on casual. There you go i sorted out all your problems :3 Your welcome.

Then you don't seem to get the point. If you lower difficulty, you remove the challenge of combat.

So would you rather them have like 10% of the hitpoints they do now, but make them extremely hard to hit & have damage reduction spells on top of them?

JJ

[moilami]

gingerbill wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Oh wow you are another hater and just came on here to bash bioware and DA.

yep . Theres a small bunch of these strange people who like to waste there lifes talking about a game they hate . Strangely they all play them for hundreds of hours and then say they hated it.

i guess every RPG ever made is a load of crap according to that site. Think i will dismiss there opinion as a load off made up nonsense , never heard of them .

It is not so strange if you think about for a while why people in general does not read the same book over and over again. You know, some gamers want to experience a new story. So if the only way to do it is to play dumbed down JRPG Gung-Fu game then that is the only choise.