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[Ziggeh]

moilami wrote...

Inventory management with a kobold sorcerer in NWN MP server is big part of the immersion. You will have to make choises what crap you take with you and what loot you pick up, and you just can't be a walking mule carrying everything you find. It very much makes kobold a kobold instead of hummie with looks of kobold. It is not "fun", but huh, what the hell.....it is at least interesting, immersive, and realistical. Besides when I see those level 30 kobolds and I know what hardship they have gone through, I feel respect at them. They are freaking awesome lol.

This is why people need to stop using the terms "immersion" and "realistic".

[Melness]

Ziggeh wrote...

moilami wrote...

Inventory management with a kobold sorcerer in NWN MP server is big part of the immersion. You will have to make choises what crap you take with you and what loot you pick up, and you just can't be a walking mule carrying everything you find. It very much makes kobold a kobold instead of hummie with looks of kobold. It is not "fun", but huh, what the hell.....it is at least interesting, immersive, and realistical. Besides when I see those level 30 kobolds and I know what hardship they have gone through, I feel respect at them. They are freaking awesome lol.

This is why people need to stop using the terms "immersion" and "realistic".

I'd rather that people no longer expected to be shoved into the pool to be immersed.

Immersion is a 2 party process and most of it always happened on the player's part - be it because you have to imagine the whole thing, like a tabletop rpg or a book, or because of the inevitable 'flaws' of videogames. At least, that's how I see it, anyway.

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

moilami wrote...

Inventory management with a kobold sorcerer in NWN MP server is big part of the immersion. You will have to make choises what crap you take with you and what loot you pick up, and you just can't be a walking mule carrying everything you find. It very much makes kobold a kobold instead of hummie with looks of kobold. It is not "fun", but huh, what the hell.....it is at least interesting, immersive, and realistical. Besides when I see those level 30 kobolds and I know what hardship they have gone through, I feel respect at them. They are freaking awesome lol.

This is why people need to stop using the terms "immersion" and "realistic".

Explain.

[Ziggeh]

Melness wrote...

I'd rather that people no longer expected to be shoved into the pool to be immersed.

Immersion is a 2 party process and most of it always happened on the player's part - be it because you have to imagine the whole thing, like a tabletop rpg or a book, or because of the inevitable 'flaws' of videogames. At least, that's how I see it, anyway.

Yeah, that's it's general misuse, the idea that the less fantasy there is the more one can immerse, and that this is objectively superior. There aren't a lot of Office Simulators for a reason.

What he's saying though is that fighting without penalty while carrying your bodyweight in spare metal hats is more realistic and immersive that if you were carrying someone elses bodywieght.

[Ziggeh]

moilami wrote...
Explain.

You're using as synonyms for "good" or "preferable".

I agree with your point, that choices having consequences is a good thing, but the example you present is basically abstract.

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

moilami wrote...
Explain.

You're using as synonyms for "good" or "preferable".

I agree with your point, that choices having consequences is a good thing, but the example you present is basically abstract.

Hmm, it was an abstract example tried to make in practise easy to understand.

I have been thinking about stuff. Since "RPGs" are more and more like tunnel running arcade adventure games and shooters I will rather read a book which tells the story much better than some sucky computer game. For shooters and arcade action I naturally cherry pick the best games for that, and not some bad hybrids.

This leaves NWN and old school RPGs for RP.

[Ziggeh]

moilami wrote...

I have been thinking about stuff. Since "RPGs" are more and more like tunnel running arcade adventure games and shooters I will rather read a book which tells the story much better than some sucky computer game. For shooters and arcade action I naturally cherry pick the best games for that, and not some bad hybrids.

This leaves NWN and old school RPGs for RP.

Thought I'd adress this in the current "define-an-rpg" thread, rather than gum up this one

http://social.biowar...39028/7#6340751

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Melness wrote...

I'd rather that people no longer expected to be shoved into the pool to be immersed.

Immersion is a 2 party process and most of it always happened on the player's part - be it because you have to imagine the whole thing, like a tabletop rpg or a book, or because of the inevitable 'flaws' of videogames. At least, that's how I see it, anyway.

Yeah, that's it's general misuse, the idea that the less fantasy there is the more one can immerse, and that this is objectively superior. There aren't a lot of Office Simulators for a reason.

No.
Not less fantasy...more realism.

Jsut because I have a more realistic swordfight, doesn't mean I have to have less elves.

And yea...depending on the mood and setting, it can very well be objectively superior.

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The big problem with level scaling...is that that the gulf between levels gets huge..and the difference betwen fights get huge. And thus developers feel a need to make battles amore challening by brining opponents to your level. Or throw enldess hordes of lesser enemies at you.

But neither of it is really necessary.

Take a look at games and notice a pattern. Take a note of :
- number of levels a player can have (max level)
- difference in pwoer between levels
- difference in HP between levels.

Mybe the devs feel they have to make the palyer feel more powerfull? So they ramp up the number of levels and the difference. So you end up with the garbage that is WoW leveling, where lvl 1 has 100 HP and lvl 80 has 90,000!

Relly, when you think about other games...is such an huge boost even necessary? There certanly are games that don't constantly make the PC tougher, faster nad infinately more durable..do they flop because of that?

Of course, this does't mean that the player character should 't improve with elvel. But in what ways should he improve? And by how much?

HP inflation is not necessary. Frankly, I'd tie HP to constitutions score only, and nothing else - your level or class wouldn't affect it at all. I'd also reduce attribute point closer to D&D range.
What woudl that accomplish?

1) No HP inflation. No need to beef up enemies. A low-level enemy doesn't become utterly insignificant later. A high-level enemy isn't completley impossible.
The challange remain, the scaling tedium is gone.

2) Experience focuses on skills. Knowledge. What experience really is. The Character becomes better trough skills, not HP inflation.

3) Creating the character you really want. In D&D you could create a really strong character to start with. DA:O and DA2 - you can't do that. Because of the way attributes and item scaling works, you'll enver be able to equip that steel armor early.

4) More believable experience. People with swords don't suddenly become inconsequential just because you've been training. They can still kill you. They are still dangerous.
But in a typcial RPG.
A whole army of lvl1 bandits that plauged you early aren't even worth your attention now. You can read a newspaper and not even bother defending yourself.


This is jsut off the top of my head on this one subject. I could write essays on other things too..like prema-death, money and other things....

Good points. You made them better than I. That’s what I was
getting at when I said level scaling has to justify itself. Really it’s like a
cycle. The points you make are reliant on scaling as scaling is reliant on the
points you make. It makes you wonder if the developers choose level scaling
first or DA’s RPG system.