333 réponses à ce sujet

[Adhin]

Yeah though, its an RPG. The entire system is based around increase in hp/dmg over the course of the game via different methods. They're adding more stuff to Nightmare mode then just some boost to HP/DMG, and you know that Naitaka. Peter mentioned it few times, health bleed out when you get to <10%. Enemy skills gaining some extra effects (like stealing your health potions?).

I think at least this time around they've tried to incorporate some interesting effects that only show up in NM that isn't just 'lol x10 hp'. Infact I doubt the HP/DMG boost is that big, doesn't have to be really. Most mook mobs in normal are based around you hitting them in 4.2 hits (a normal attack chain is 5). So a single attack chain should kill any given base mob (for a warrior). Any special move should 90% of the time just auto-kill them, or nearly.

Anyways my point is they're trying some new stuff outside the norm on upping difficulty and the thing Maria said up earlier with junk there actually doing. Gems goto the junk page and all have a trashcan icon to point out 'this ****s junk, sell it'. And as to the OP things die faster in retail. Like I said 4.2 hits (so 5 hits or 4 with a crit). If you compare that to the demo? demo mobs have like twice the HP that they'll have retail. That or you do more dmg, either way effects the same.

[Maria Caliban]

Lockkaliber wrote...

I guess it didn't strike any of you hardcore bioware-fans that some people actually like RPG mechanics in their RPG's, not because of tradition, but you know, because we enjoy the genre.

You know what? I've been on the Dragon Age II board for a while now and there's one complaint I've never seen.

No one has *ever* asked that point allocation at character creation be replaced by dice rolling.

All these people who love Baldur's Gate II and love RPG mechanics seem to never advocate for one of the oldest of those mechanics. Which is strange, because when BioWare made Neverwinter Night, I recall many people wanting to know if the 3d6 method or the 4d6 and drop the lowest would be used.

And what about wound penalties? In many games, the lower your HP, the worse you are at fighting. I know when I play World of Darkness, PC can't fight or cast spells as well when half her health is gone.

Or what about item weight? Encumbrance slowing how fast your character runs and walks? Needing to eat and drink? An attack penalty when fighting in darkness? Heck, even Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition has that.

All these wonderful RPG mechanics are neglected by those who claim to love RPG mechanics just because they're part of the genre.

[Taleroth]

I hope DA2 has Mega-Damage rules. SQUEEEE

[Naitaka]

Adhin wrote...

Yeah though, its an RPG. The entire system is based around increase in hp/dmg over the course of the game via different methods. They're adding more stuff to Nightmare mode then just some boost to HP/DMG, and you know that Naitaka. Peter mentioned it few times, health bleed out when you get to <10%. Enemy skills gaining some extra effects (like stealing your health potions?).

Yah, but that seems more fluff than anything that drastically changes the experience. I would much rather see a difference in skill usage, AI preset, enemy spawn types/location/numbers and generally more surprises than just "oh look, my hp pot just went down by 1". Anyway, they are moving in the right direction, but there's still much they can do in terms of making things interesting. As much as I hate to use it as an example, WoW does a good job on difficulty scaling with their instances. Also if you look at some of the difficulty mods for DA:O, they've done some pretty cool stuff. Improving the enemy tactic and talents coupled with increasing frequency of skill usage made even the most trivial encouter in DA:O a matter of life and death.

Modifié par Naitaka, 03 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[Sharn01]

JrayM16 wrote...

You know, a lot of people say that the stats aren't that complicated, but let me tell you this. I had a friend who bought Origins and stopped after about 10-15 minutes cause he just didn't wanna deal with the stats. ANd he was a pretty hardcore gamer. Loves games, play them all the time.

There is some credence to Bioware's claims.

I dont really see that as a problem, not all types of games will be enjoyed by everyone.  I enjoy a strong story and character growth based on an experiance system, I dont go to the boards of developers who make games I dont enjoy and complain that they are not making the kind of game I want.

I also get tired of the constant "every game must appeal to the most people no matter what in an attempt to sell the most copies" belief that some people hold.  I am glad the rest of the world isnt run that way, other wise every restaurant would be McDonalds and if you where in the mood to splurge for a nice steak dinner you better be a good cook.

[Morroian]

Playing the demo on nightmare it didn't seem as if they'd inflated enemy HPs. They went down quickly but I went down more quickly than on normal as well like they reduced defence or armor. Is that what they've done?

[marshalleck]

Morroian wrote...

Playing the demo on nightmare it didn't seem as if they'd inflated enemy HPs. They went down quickly but I went down more quickly than on normal as well like they reduced defence or armor. Is that what they've done?

The demo difficulty isn't balanced, which is why it was disabled in the first place.

[JigPig]

DESTRUCTOID
Halo: Reach Review Score
Score: 10 -- Flawless Victory (10s are as close to perfect as you will get in a genre or on a platform. Pure, untarnished videogame ecstasy.)
Editor's Choice

[Adhin]

that's because the demo's 'Nightmare mode' is mostly in name. It has broken FF mode and thats about it. Nothing in that past the basic feel of combat is close to retail. Its the original convention floor demo mildly upgraded for a public download.

It's the price we pay for getting a demo early. usually if they do a demo its well after its been released and as such, the demo is a literal chunk of the finished product. They can't really do that while working on it as effectively so we get the demo they did for show purposes instead.

Works for what they wanted. Confused the **** outa a lot of forum goers though.

[Anathemic]

JigPig wrote...

DESTRUCTOID
Halo: Reach Review Score
Score: 10 -- Flawless Victory (10s are as close to perfect as you will get in a genre or on a platform. Pure, untarnished videogame ecstasy.)
Editor's Choice

Yes no need to repeat the quote.

And btw JigPig I'm still waiting for those posts of me trolling

[Ziggeh]

Taleroth wrote...
Let's not forget that there was a reason the system was implemented to begin with.  It's kind of a question of whether that reason truly holds still.

Exactly, that's just it. Elements need to be considered in context, not isolation.

Plus, there's only so many times I can be presented with the same problem before it just becomes a chore.

[Balek-Vriege]

I don't know if this has been said, but is the statistic that the majority of playthroughs were only 2 hours long really reliable?

It's possible that a lot of people quit after two hours because they switched to another origin or kept remaking their characters after making a custom face and not liking it. I know I played up until Ostagar about a total of 40 times and ended restarting because of this or that reason. Just sayin...

[Maria Caliban]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

I don't know if this has been said, but is the statistic that the majority of playthroughs were only 2 hours long really reliable?

It's possible that a lot of people quit after two hours because they switched to another origin or kept remaking their characters after making a custom face and not liking it. I know I played up until Ostagar about a total of 40 times and ended restarting because of this or that reason. Just sayin...

Yes. If you restarted your character 20 times and then replayed the game all the way, they would know that you played the game all the way.

[Taleroth]

Ziggeh wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Let's not forget that there was a reason the system was implemented to begin with.  It's kind of a question of whether that reason truly holds still.

Exactly, that's just it. Elements need to be considered in context, not isolation.

Actually, I think that's the exact opposite of the problem.  People can't isolate variables.  They can't see what the individual elements contribute to critically analyze their value.

Plus, there's only so many times I can be presented with the same problem before it just becomes a chore.

I'd personally say that inventory management became a chore over valid strategy a loooong time ago.

An associate of mine made a good point not that long ago.  Some people hate simplicity, they think it's dumb.  But chess is itself a pretty simple game.  It's absurd to claim that game is dumb.

It reflects on a particular element of our subculture that values complexity as intellectual.  And intellectual is an inherent good to some.  It's somewhat absurd.  Most complexity is an emergent quality of tossing ill-fitting concepts together and does not provide deep strategy as a result.  But that's hard to explain to alot of people.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ziggeh]

Taleroth wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Exactly, that's just it. Elements need to be considered in context, not isolation.

Actually, I think that's the exact opposite of the problem.  People can't isolate variables.  They can't see what the individual elements contribute to critically analyze their value.

I mean that they need to be evaluated in terms of how appropriate/effective they are within a given game, rather than assuming they have inherent value on the basis that they were appropriate/effective in previous games. But yes, lack of detachment from said games is much of the issue there.

Taleroth wrote...
I'd personally say that inventory management became a chore over valid strategy a loooong time ago.

Bit's of it are valuable. You wouldn't want to stray too far from it as it's a strong means of managing personal progression, but things like bag space and vendor trash need to die in a fire.

[Felene]

Well I guess this is what BioWare get for trying to put two different fish into one bowl.

For Fish A, the bowl is too small. And for Fish B, the bowl is too big.

[Taleroth]

Ziggeh wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
I'd personally say that inventory management became a chore over valid strategy a loooong time ago.

Bit's of it are valuable. You wouldn't want to stray too far from it as it's a strong means of managing personal progression, but things like bag space and vendor trash need to die in a fire.

I wouldn't mind losing it.  I'm very narrativist for RPGs.  Lots of books I read have people get one great sword and use that for their entire lifetime.  I like it for customization, but I'm more a fan of experience/learning progression exclusively.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[Kileyan]

Taleroth wrote...

It reflects on a particular element of our subculture that values complexity as intellectual.  And intellectual is an inherent good to some.  It's somewhat absurd.  Most complexity is an emergent quality of tossing ill-fitting concepts together and does not provide deep strategy as a result.  But that's hard to explain to alot of people.

You are trying way too hard to philosophize about this maybe.

Adding inventory just so that you have to switch out armors and weapons every 2 levels is silly.

Adding lots of items of varying stats is fun. One guy might want to make his rogue a super duper high dex damage machine. Another rogue might want that armor set of high cunning and plus dodge armor. Same with weapons, people can find builds and niches for them if the devs make them varied, rather than just a vanilla series of upgrades.

Now if the devs fail to make the items varied in their uses, then sure, it is just a waste of time, they may as well have just auto upgraded your equipment everytime you click the correct chest or beat the correct monster.

Having an inventory and many choices in jewelery, armor and weapons isn't about putting up facade of complexity. It is about choices and the items supporting different playstyles and character builds.

[Taleroth]

Kileyan wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

It reflects on a particular element of our subculture that values complexity as intellectual.  And intellectual is an inherent good to some.  It's somewhat absurd.  Most complexity is an emergent quality of tossing ill-fitting concepts together and does not provide deep strategy as a result.  But that's hard to explain to alot of people.

You are trying way too hard to philosophize about this maybe.

Adding inventory just so that you have to switch out armors and weapons every 2 levels is silly.

Adding lots of items of varying stats is fun. One guy might want to make his rogue a super duper high dex damage machine. Another rogue might want that armor set of high cunning and plus dodge armor. Same with weapons, people can find builds and niches for them if the devs make them varied, rather than just a vanilla series of upgrades.

Now if the devs fail to make the items varied in their uses, then sure, it is just a waste of time, they may as well have just auto upgraded your equipment everytime you click the correct chest or beat the correct monster.

Having an inventory and many choices in jewelery, armor and weapons isn't about putting up facade of complexity. It is about choices and the items supporting different playstyles and character builds.

But you can do that kind of choice and customization without inventory.  It can be part of the stat system.  It can be part of the skill system.

Item systems almost never actually do that.  DAO certainly didn't.  Equipment was just a progression system.  It failed to customize.

9 times out of 10, the only time they actually aid customization is by accident.  When a pared down and intentional customization system that may not even use inventory can do it better.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[the_one_54321]

Darth Executor wrote...
...

This is just my opinion, but I truly do hope that this signals to you that BioWare does not make the kind of games that you enjoy, that you will stop buying BioWare games, and that you will stop trying to influence how they are made. If BioWare started making games the way you are saying they should, it would be a tragedy.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

The thing about inventory is that usually you collect weapons and armor or you collect stuff to sell for weapons and armor. For this to be a continuous cash gain and for the player to feel as though equipment measures their progress, you need to constantly give them new stuff to use and to sell.

As the player is constantly improving their armor and weapons, they're going to expect to use that armor and weapon. Which means fighting. Fighting to get more armor and weapons, and stuff to sell to buy more armor and weapons.

The exemplar of this model of play is World of Warcraft.

Constant item acquisition. Constant item obsolesces. Constant stream of foes that progress in a very controlled fashion.

And this is wildly addictive gameplay. You can strip a game of anything like a story, non-combat gameplay, or characters, and people will continue to kill things to get stuff to kill things to get stuff to kill things to get stuff.

I hate it.

[Gvaz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No other genre expects me to pick up 120 bits of crap, half of which is junk I'm supposed to sell while the other half are slight upgrades to the boots, armor, helmet, weapons, shield, rings, and amulet of my PC and the other 8 characters I'm controlling.

Here is an idea: Everything that the developer knows is crap? Label it 'crap.' Stick it in a special 'crap' section of the inventory that takes up 0 room. When I go to merchants, have a button that says [Sell all Crap]. When you hit the button, a pop up comes up tell you how much money you just got.

Whoa! We just saved the player time and now they can get back to the fun parts of playing a game. We must be dumbing down the RPG.

The rpg you want to play, and the RPG I want to play are two totally different games.

Here is what I expect in an rpg:

- Interesting setting, full of lore. Lore is not nessessary for progression.
- loot. Lots of loot. Not randomly generated loot, but loot. If you're playing a High Fantasy game, I want to be able to find Dargoth, The High Sword of Dwarven Bane and have interesting stats other than just +5 attack. I want it to have cool particle effects and have a subtext on the item saying something funny or interesting or related to the lore. I want to customize my player, and all my friends. I want to choose who is wearing what ring(s), and so on. I want to choose who wears the Daddy Pants of Virtue, and who gets the gear I don't want anymore because the PC wears the God Pants of Epicness. I want some of this loot to be thrown at me in vendors (no named weapons in vendors, obviously) but certain weapons are only in the bowels of a cave hidden by Balrogs and Satan and Dragons and Bears (oh my!) that are actually HARD in the context of the game. Some weapons you can only get by wooing the vendor or doing a favor to the vendor which will "unlock the special stock for you commander, enjoy"
- PC conversations that matter, or at least a story that isn't just "do my sidequest and I'll sleep with you"
- a story that isn't dumb as nails
- an enviroment that, if it's linear, at least pretend that the game is open by giving you lots of different places and vistas to visit. Give the player the illusion of choice, rather than pretending there was a choice and hiding it by a piece of paper.
- combat that is interesting. if you're going to put debuffs in the game, give me a reason to use them on a boss instead of just going "nope, the boss resisted your poisons, no effect" because there was no reason to use poison against anything else in the game. (final fantasy does this, shin megami tensei does not)
- graphics and animations that work well for the setting without being a huge deviation from previous versions, or look good while still being unique.
- some sort of graphical score that isn't BLEEP BOOP BEEP nes sounds.
- skill points to allocate, with skills that aren't just DERP +10 damage but do interesting things.

Not needed but are added bonuses:
- crafting system for food, items, armor/weapons, or all three
- lots of secret little areas and zones that reward you for being an explorer of the game, trying to find all the nooks and crannies.
- not a simple cooridor game, but maybe a little bit open. Large enviroments, places to run around in.
- being able to jump (this ends up being a level design thing, because adding jump can make someone break the level in unintended ways)
- being able to act with the world or having the world react to your actions, either statically over the course of the game, or at any opportunity. Just get back from Epic Sidequest #4 where you had to kill a priest? Let people **** or praise you. Have someone come up and go "sup jerkass, I'm happy/not happy with what you did and I'm gonna reward/kill you for it! Have at ye!"

As I was writing this, I realized that KOTOR was the last Bioware RPG this happened, and the last note in the extras happened in the Orzammar quest in Dragon Age 1.

[AlanC9]

Taleroth wrote...
 I'm very narrativist for RPGs.  Lots of books I read have people get one great sword and use that for their entire lifetime.  I like it for customization, but I'm more a fan of experience/learning progression exclusively.

I'm pretty much with you on this. I've always regretted that CRPGs don't derive from PnP RPG systems that are organized around narrative.

[Kileyan]

Taleroth wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

It reflects on a particular element of our subculture that values complexity as intellectual.  And intellectual is an inherent good to some.  It's somewhat absurd.  Most complexity is an emergent quality of tossing ill-fitting concepts together and does not provide deep strategy as a result.  But that's hard to explain to alot of people.

You are trying way too hard to philosophize about this maybe.

Adding inventory just so that you have to switch out armors and weapons every 2 levels is silly.

Adding lots of items of varying stats is fun. One guy might want to make his rogue a super duper high dex damage machine. Another rogue might want that armor set of high cunning and plus dodge armor. Same with weapons, people can find builds and niches for them if the devs make them varied, rather than just a vanilla series of upgrades.

Now if the devs fail to make the items varied in their uses, then sure, it is just a waste of time, they may as well have just auto upgraded your equipment everytime you click the correct chest or beat the correct monster.

Having an inventory and many choices in jewelery, armor and weapons isn't about putting up facade of complexity. It is about choices and the items supporting different playstyles and character builds.

But you can do that kind of choice and customization without inventory.  It can be part of the stat system.  It can be part of the skill system.

Item systems almost never actually do that.  DAO certainly didn't.  Equipment was just a progression system.  It failed to customize.

9 times out of 10, the only time they actually aid customization is by accident.  When a pared down and intentional customization system that may not even use inventory can do it better.

We will have to disagree, I found plenty of items I would use with one character plan, and not with another.

Now sure, you could remove every item in the game and replace it with a stat, skill or talent, perks or any number of upgrade path buttons and upgrade trees.. At that point, you will end up adding just as much complexity with really no gain except arbitrarily saying........we have no inventory!

I know I am being glib, I don't mind inventories and you dislike them.

Shrug, I don't want this game to become Mass Effect 2 (a good game) where, all you do is find the correct pixel to click once a map to level up your sword(find a new gun). I like having a 3 swords, one doing fire damage, another adding to defense, or the last one adding to +crit damage. I find uses for them. I don't want a single sword that levels up with me, and don't see adding a skill tree to level up customize my sword/bow as a big break through over inventory.......if that is what you envision replacing inventory? (I don't want to put words in your mouth)

[AlanC9]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The exemplar of this model of play is World of Warcraft.

Not Diablo? Or are they both equally awful?