333 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaeliorin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Lockkaliber wrote...
I guess it didn't strike any of you hardcore bioware-fans that some people actually like RPG mechanics in their RPG's, not because of tradition, but you know, because we enjoy the genre.

You know what? I've been on the Dragon Age II board for a while now and there's one complaint I've never seen.

No one has *ever* asked that point allocation at character creation be replaced by dice rolling.

All these people who love Baldur's Gate II and love RPG mechanics seem to never advocate for one of the oldest of those mechanics. Which is strange, because when BioWare made Neverwinter Night, I recall many people wanting to know if the 3d6 method or the 4d6 and drop the lowest would be used.

Not every RPG has dice rolling for stat allocation.  Most, in my experience, don't.  Regardless, dice rolling is a poor means of determining stats (and HP) because it causes serious imbalances between characters, making encounter balance difficult to impossible, and makes players who rolled poorly unhappy when their characters can't compete with those who rolled very well.

Also, no one wants to roll for hours any more to get a character with decent stats.  It's the worst part of trying to replay the IE games, as far as I'm concerned.

And what about wound penalties? In many games, the lower your HP, the worse you are at fighting. I know when I play World of Darkness, PC can't fight or cast spells as well when half her health is gone.

Wound penalties are a bad mechanic.  They create a death spiral, where whoever hits first ends up with an often insurmountable advantage that prevents the wounded person from having a reasonable chance of recovering and winning the fight.  Yes, they're more realistic, but they aren't particularly fun.

Or what about item weight? Encumbrance slowing how fast your character runs and walks? Needing to eat and drink? An attack penalty when fighting in darkness? Heck, even Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition has that.

Outside of needing to eat and drink, I'd like to see all of those in RPGs.  Eating and drinking has it's place, but is a bit tedious.  A lot of my memories of Betrayal at Krondor, a game I really like, have to do with the system of eating/drinking and food spoilage/poisoned food.  It added a layer to the game that I found enjoyable.

All these wonderful RPG mechanics are neglected by those who claim to love RPG mechanics just because they're part of the genre.

Well...some of us neglect them because we've pretty much given up.  At least that's why I don't bring them up.  I know that the likelihood of any major developer adding all the things I'd like to a game are pretty minimal,
so I don't see any point in fighting for things I'll never get.

Ziggeh wrote...
things like bag space and vendor trash need to die in a fire

Bring back encumbrance, and you've got a deal.  My favorite inventory system ever (Wizardry 8) had neither a limit on bag space (for the party...individual characters had a limit to how many items they had readily available, but could spend a turn to access items from the party inventory) or vendor trash (everything that dropped was either a weapon, armor, consumable or crafting part) but had an encumbrance system.

The only argument I can see in favor of vendor trash is one of verisimilitude, and while I understand the desire for it, I think gameplay is more important.

GvazElite wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
No other
genre expects me to pick up 120 bits of crap, half of which is junk I'm
supposed to sell while the other half are slight upgrades to the boots,
armor, helmet, weapons, shield, rings, and amulet of my PC and the other
8 characters I'm controlling.

Here is an idea: Everything that
the developer knows is crap? Label it 'crap.' Stick it in a special
'crap' section of the inventory that takes up 0 room. When I go to
merchants, have a button that says [Sell all Crap]. When you hit the
button, a pop up comes up tell you how much money you just got.

Whoa!
We just saved the player time and now they can get back to the fun
parts of playing a game. We must be dumbing down the RPG.

The rpg you want to play, and the RPG I want to play are two totally different games.

Here is what I expect in an rpg:

- Interesting setting, full of lore. Lore is not nessessary for progression.
- loot. Lots of loot. Not randomly generated loot, but loot. If you're playing a High Fantasy game, I want to be able to find Dargoth, The High Sword of Dwarven Bane and have interesting stats other
than just +5 attack. I want it to have cool particle effects and have a
subtext on the item saying something funny or interesting or related to
the lore. I want to customize my player, and all my friends. I want to
choose who is wearing what ring(s), and so on. I want to choose who
wears the Daddy Pants of Virtue, and who gets the gear I don't want
anymore because the PC wears the God Pants of Epicness. I want some of
this loot to be thrown at me in vendors (no named weapons in vendors,
obviously) but certain weapons are only in the bowels of a cave hidden
by Balrogs and Satan and Dragons and Bears (oh my!) that are actually
HARD in the context of the game. Some weapons you can only get by wooing
the vendor or doing a favor to the vendor which will "unlock the
special stock for you commander, enjoy"
- PC conversations that matter, or at least a story that isn't just "do my sidequest and I'll sleep with you"
- a story that isn't dumb as nails
-
an enviroment that, if it's linear, at least pretend that the game is
open by giving you lots of different places and vistas to visit. Give
the player the illusion of choice, rather than pretending there was a
choice and hiding it by a piece of paper.
- combat that is
interesting. if you're going to put debuffs in the game, give me a
reason to use them on a boss instead of just going "nope, the boss
resisted your poisons, no effect" because there was no reason to use
poison against anything else in the game. (final fantasy does this, shin
megami tensei does not)
- graphics and animations that work well for
the setting without being a huge deviation from previous versions, or
look good while still being unique.
- some sort of graphical score that isn't BLEEP BOOP BEEP nes sounds.
- skill points to allocate, with skills that aren't just DERP +10 damage but do interesting things.

Not needed but are added bonuses:
- crafting system for food, items, armor/weapons, or all three
-
lots of secret little areas and zones that reward you for being an
explorer of the game, trying to find all the nooks and crannies.
- not a simple cooridor game, but maybe a little bit open. Large enviroments, places to run around in.
-
being able to jump (this ends up being a level design thing, because
adding jump can make someone break the level in unintended ways)
-
being able to act with the world or having the world react to your
actions, either statically over the course of the game, or at any
opportunity. Just get back from Epic Sidequest #4 where you had to kill a
priest? Let people **** or praise you. Have someone come up and go "sup
jerkass, I'm happy/not happy with what you did and I'm gonna
reward/kill you for it! Have at ye!"

As I was writing this,
I realized that KOTOR was the last Bioware RPG this happened, and the
last note in the extras happened in the Orzammar quest in Dragon Age
1.

Add turn-based combat and remove the bit about jumping (I'm not anti-jumping, I just don't care about it) and that's pretty much the game I want, too.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 03 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[RohanD]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Lockkaliber wrote...

I guess it didn't strike any of you hardcore bioware-fans that some people actually like RPG mechanics in their RPG's, not because of tradition, but you know, because we enjoy the genre.

You know what? I've been on the Dragon Age II board for a while now and there's one complaint I've never seen.

No one has *ever* asked that point allocation at character creation be replaced by dice rolling.

All these people who love Baldur's Gate II and love RPG mechanics seem to never advocate for one of the oldest of those mechanics. Which is strange, because when BioWare made Neverwinter Night, I recall many people wanting to know if the 3d6 method or the 4d6 and drop the lowest would be used.

And what about wound penalties? In many games, the lower your HP, the worse you are at fighting. I know when I play World of Darkness, PC can't fight or cast spells as well when half her health is gone.

Or what about item weight? Encumbrance slowing how fast your character runs and walks? Needing to eat and drink? An attack penalty when fighting in darkness? Heck, even Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition has that.

All these wonderful RPG mechanics are neglected by those who claim to love RPG mechanics just because they're part of the genre.

Dice rolls are a relic of P&P games that doesn't work in a single player experience because you don't have a group of friends around you who have all taken what they got when it comes to their rolls. There's no pressure to just "accept" your roll, so it's a logically redundant feature. 

Encumberance was simulated by a limited inventory and also penalties to stamina if you wore heavy armour.

Wound penalties were covered by, you know, wounds. when your character fell in battle?

About all the trash loot, you know, this would never have been much of an issue if Bioware had actually included the Warden's Keep chest in the actual game. That was such a low move. 

Modifié par RohanD, 03 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

GvazElite wrote...

Here is what I expect in an rpg [snipped]:

Thank you for posting this and doing it so eloquently. This too is what I expect from an RPG and am afraid of losing.

Well said and much appreciated.

[Rzepik2]

Wow, at the beginning of this thread OP is sieged by trolls more than De'Arnise keep.

Filler battles and forced extensions of game length in DA:O are terrible.
Mechanics are full of exploits (they tying to fix this, no more potion spamming in DA2), MMO-based combat system in a single player team-based cRPG is rather a bad idea to begin with.

But if I recall correctly, someone promised less filler battles in DA2. Well, we'll see. Demo wasn't actually so bad compared to some DA:O parts.

Modifié par Rzepik2, 03 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[Maria Caliban]

AlanC9 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The exemplar of this model of play is World of Warcraft.

Not Diablo? Or are they both equally awful?

Diablo is second best. At least it has a story. "Defeat Diablo and save everyone."

[Kileyan]

There have always been items in Bioware games. I didn't play BGII only to get max level swords so that I could raid or compete. I played the games because they were fun, and finding cool little items along the way were part of the fun.

I see no reason to start saying that finding better items as you level is suddenly catering to WoW style players. I'm really not getting this at all. Long time posters and fans of Bioware, are acting as if WoW invented inventory and items. Seriously we suddenly have to hate obtaining items in a Bioware rpg, because the hated monster of game called World of Warcraft does it?

Who gives a darn what WoW does, they copied it all from other games, don't let it dictate how games can be made. Honestly if some WoW refugee only plays DAII to get the most powerful items, who cares.

WoW wins if games have to be changed, just to distance themselves from the game that copied all the mechanics. Remove inventory and item upgrades because WoW does it? Come up with a better reason.

[Rzepik2]

The Water God wrote...

I stopped reading your article after a few paragraphs.

You expect an achievement or what?

[Maria Caliban]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Not every RPG has dice rolling for stat allocation.  Most, in my experience, don't.  Regardless, dice rolling is a poor means of determining stats (and HP) because it causes serious imbalances between characters, making encounter balance difficult to impossible, and makes players who rolled poorly unhappy when their characters can't compete with those who rolled very well.

Also, no one wants to roll for hours any more to get a character with decent stats.  It's the worst part of trying to replay the IE games, as far as I'm concerned.

So you're saying that a mechanic should be in a BioWare game if it works, not simply because it's an RPG mechanic and people who love the genre will love it?

[LumpOfCole]

DA2 is going for a tighter and more cinematic feel, and I welcome that.

[Rzepik2]

scyphozoa wrote...

You guys should know destructoid is one of the worst (least credible, most openly biased) game sites on the net. They are right up there with ign. These guys are not journalists, they don't know the meaning of the word journalism. They are just gamers with ms word. Its sad that people make purchasing decisions based on such amateur news outfits. (most game sites, even the big ones are amateur)

And this is rellevant because...?
The article just sums up what Laidlaw said in verious interviews. Not much place for bad journalism.

Modifié par Rzepik2, 03 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Vaeliorin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
Not every RPG has dice rolling for stat allocation.  Most, in my experience, don't.  Regardless, dice rolling is a poor means of determining stats (and HP) because it causes serious imbalances between characters, making encounter balance difficult to impossible, and makes players who rolled poorly unhappy when their characters can't compete with those who rolled very well.

Also, no one wants to roll for hours any more to get a character with decent stats.  It's the worst part of trying to replay the IE games, as far as I'm concerned.

So you're saying that a mechanic should be in a BioWare game if it works, not simply because it's an RPG mechanic and people who love the genre will love it?

Yes.  But I'm also saying that a lot of the mechanics that people want to get rid of also work, and it bothers me that people want to get rid of them.

Of course, I also see people campaigning to keep or enlarge on systems that don't work at all, which I don't really get.

[Aesieru]

Lost Odyssey, one of the best RPG's I've come across is a JRPG...

Tales of Vesperia... top-ranked RPG with solid story.

[Radwar]

"Laidlaw puts it, there exists the sense that old-school RPGs may be a dying breed, vestigial organs of the modern game."

Yeah, the new breed of RPG's is what I call RPG's for dummies (like the books). It's as if gaming companies have it their heads that the new generation of gamer's aren't quite as bright as they used to be so we'll simplify the heck out of the game by removing tons of features for them, don't want them having to think too much. Heck, if a kid played classic RPG games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment, we have to wonder if their head wouldn't explode due to the "complexity" (of course there are always exceptions), but yet we managed to get through them and had a great time to boot.

[tmp7704]

Rzepik2 wrote...

But if I recall correctly, someone promised less filler battles in DA2. Well, we'll see. Demo wasn't actually so bad compared to some DA:O parts.

I really don't know about that.

"Another wave!"
"We've got company"
There's more of them!"

they're rarely spread less frequent than single draw distance apart.

[Maria Caliban]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Yes.  But I'm also saying that a lot of the mechanics that people want to get rid of also work, and it bothers me that people want to get rid of them.

Of course, I also see people campaigning to keep or enlarge on systems that don't work at all, which I don't really get.

The problem is that whether a system 'works' depends on how you feel about it and if it meets your goals.

You said wound penalties create a cycle of death. How is that a bad thing if you have a game where there are non-combat solutions and combat itself is meant to be deadly?

That's not broken. It works exactly as it's meant to. There's also little in-combat healing and no reloading an old save in World of Darkness. When my character gets three feet of steel shoved into her gut, my thought is not "-10hp, 320hp left" but "Oh sh*t! I need to get out of here!"

Now, that's probably not what BioWare wants its gamers to experience. I can deal with that, though I think it's unfortunate. It's a perfectly fine mechanic, however, and you rarely see people who say they love RPG mechanics and hate how unrealistic and anime DA II appears to be ask for.

[mesmerizedish]

Radwar wrote...

"Laidlaw puts it, there exists the sense that old-school RPGs may be a dying breed, vestigial organs of the modern game."

Yeah, the new breed of RPG's is what I call RPG's for dummies (like the books). It's as if gaming companies have it their heads that the new generation of gamer's aren't quite as bright as they used to be so we'll simplify the heck out of the game by removing tons of features for them, don't want them having to think too much. Heck, if a kid played classic RPG games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment, we have to wonder if their head wouldn't explode due to the "complexity" (of course there are always exceptions), but yet we managed to get through them and had a great time to boot.

I disagree. All the complexity of the old Infinity Engine games is done completely under the hood. As far as player input is concerned, Dragon Age is much more complex than Baldur's Gate. It's also a lot more fun to play.

[AtreiyaN7]

Bye?

[Kileyan]

Maria Caliban wrote...


You said wound penalties create a cycle of death. How is that a bad thing if you have a game where there are non-combat solutions and combat itself is meant to be deadly?

That's not broken. It works exactly as it's meant to. There's also little in-combat healing and no reloading an old save in World of Darkness. When my character gets three feet of steel shoved into her gut, my thought is not "-10hp, 320hp left" but "Oh sh*t! I need to get out of here!"

Now, that's probably not what BioWare wants its gamers to experience. I can deal with that, though I think it's unfortunate. It's a perfectly fine mechanic, however, and you rarely see people who say they love RPG mechanics and hate how unrealistic and anime DA II appears to be ask for.

Totally off topic, I just hope the WoD MMO isn't vaporware, and they do a decent job.

I don't expect they will be able to do pen and paper storytelling, but I'm past that age anyway. I would still love to revisit the WoD. Really I don't even care for it being an MMO, I'd kill for a NWN1 style game, with a full fledged tooset and world creator.

[Radwar]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Radwar wrote...

"Laidlaw puts it, there exists the sense that old-school RPGs may be a dying breed, vestigial organs of the modern game."

Yeah, the new breed of RPG's is what I call RPG's for dummies (like the books). It's as if gaming companies have it their heads that the new generation of gamer's aren't quite as bright as they used to be so we'll simplify the heck out of the game by removing tons of features for them, don't want them having to think too much. Heck, if a kid played classic RPG games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment, we have to wonder if their head wouldn't explode due to the "complexity" (of course there are always exceptions), but yet we managed to get through them and had a great time to boot.

I disagree. All the complexity of the old Infinity Engine games is done completely under the hood. As far as player input is concerned, Dragon Age is much more complex than Baldur's Gate. It's also a lot more fun to play.

It depends where you feel your complexity relies. Take the spells in Baldur's Gate for example, fight a high level mage, lich or even a dragon is an incredibly daunting task for someone who's new. It's far easier to kill a mage or dragon in Dragon Age for example. And that's what I liked, the challenge. It might have taken me three hours to kill Firkraag in my first playthrough, but wow was I proud of myself when I did. Completing the Baldur's Gate series is the most satisfied I've ever been of completing an RPG. The most sad aswell, like after reading an incredible book.

[Lumikki]

Kileyan wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

You know, a lot of people say that the stats aren't that complicated, but let me tell you this. I had a friend who bought Origins and stopped after about 10-15 minutes cause he just didn't wanna deal with the stats. ANd he was a pretty hardcore gamer. Loves games, play them all the time.

There is some credence to Bioware's claims.

True, but how far do you lower the bar to attact that friend?

*snip*

He is a hardcore gamer, he is exceptionally good at platformers, and shooters. That doesn't mean every game should be made to attact him.

Yeah, but what about all RPG fans who would like to RPG be something else than just statical gameplay?

Do we really want games to be designed to attact that sort of player? Seriously, I don't want to play a game that is designed to attract someone who, within 15 minutes was overwhelmed by spending 3 stat points and one talent point.

C'mon, think hard about what that game would be, if it was designed to essentially attact someone who has zero interest in rpgs?

Like before, how you know they have zero interest to RPG, they did buy RPG and tryed to play it. Just because for you RPG is more statical gameplay, that doens't mean it's same for everyone. Maybe hole RPG fan area is suffering because it has allways been too statical for any player who could have liked RPG.

Why design a game like that, I could ask where is my base bulding, resource gathering and army units building. I want Dragon Ages the real time strategy game! I only half kid, I think that or even an ME spin off into another genre would be kind of cool

Yes, DA serie is more traditional than ME serie. Still most of the critism as how ME2 failed is comming from people who want ME serie to be statical RPG too. Allow different kind of RPG's or just allow the way you self liked them.

I think the article did say it well, that not everyone likes the old school RPG, even if they are interested about RPG. They are trying to make RPG more fun those who aren't interested statical gameplay in RPG's so much. How ever, I'm not sure do people understand difference between statical gameplay and customation.

As for OP message as killing same kind of easy enemies one after other, isn't so fun. I ques I agree, variety is allways better.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[Rockworm503]

The OP hates Bioware I needed to know that.

[AlanC9]

Vaeliorin wrote...
Yes.  But I'm also saying that a lot of the mechanics that people want to get rid of also work, and it bothers me that people want to get rid of them.

Of course, I also see people campaigning to keep or enlarge on systems that don't work at all, which I don't really get.

Yeah, I think Maria called this. "Work" is doing all the, um, work in that passage, and you're not really defining it. You don't need to if it's just a matter of personal taste, but then you shouldn't be surprised that people are trying to preserve systems that you personally think do not "work."

[mesmerizedish]

Radwar wrote...

It depends where you feel your complexity relies. Take the spells in Baldur's Gate for example, fight a high level mage, lich or even a dragon is an incredibly daunting task for someone who's new. It's far easier to kill a mage or dragon in Dragon Age for example. And that's what I liked, the challenge. It might have taken me three hours to kill Firkraag in my first playthrough, but wow was I proud of myself when I did. Completing the Baldur's Gate series is the most satisfied I've ever been of completing an RPG. The most sad aswell, like after reading an incredible book.

I disagree again Rather, I agree with the premise, but I disagree with the conclusion. Fighting a lich in BGII wasn't a "dauting task for someone who's new." It's bullsh*t no matter how long you've been playing. When you win, you're not rewarded for making intelligent tactical decisions, or for having some genuinely superior strategy. You're rewarded for stocking up your casters with DIspel Magic and Ruby Ray of Reversal. That's not fun for me. Fun for me is setting up synergistic combos between my classes, having my party work together beyond "wizards dispel, fighters auto-attack." There's a lot more stuff going on in a good Dragon Age battle than in a Bladur's Gate battle. I don't blame this on anything BioWare did with the game. I blame it on AD&D being a sh*tty game.

I don't think I'm capabale of writing a post that references the Infinity Engine without mentioning how awful AD&D is