210 réponses à ce sujet

[Itkovian]

Wissenschaft wrote...

DA2 is a much different game stat wise then DA:O. You no longer gain stamina or HP at level up. Also, healing is a lot harder to do.

Defense is going to be a lot more important in this game. So your going to want to increase cunning for your tanks to up your defense. The less hits you take, the longer you can tank. You want a defense above 50% at all times. A good distribution for a tank might be 1 str, 1cun, 1 con. Make use of a sustainable (or use a teammate with a party buff) that boosts your defense and you should be good.

This.

Take a good look at your stats as you level up in the demo, you'll find that derived stats work very different in DA2. There was a good thread on this forum about it, but I couldn't find it.

In short, it seems that the new system is designed to discourage dumping everything in a single stat.

Details:

- Your attack stat (STR for warriors) is best to raise until your attakc reaches 100%. Beyond that point more STR will only add an attack bonus against higher ranked creatures. At the same time, you will derive very little bonus to damage from increasing past 100%. It seems the best way is to stop once you reach 100% attack (but that number goes down whenever you level up, so you need to keep putting points in STR every level to maintain 100%).

- Cunning works on something of a bell curve to determine your defense, and you will find that there is a point where a single point of cunning gives a lot of defense, but after that you get much smaller benefits. The idea then seems to be to try and stay at the top of that bell curve (or just lagging behind), so that you always gain a big defense bonus for a single point of cunning (you could try to max it out, but then you'll be neglecting other vital stats).

- Stamina and Hit Points are no longer increased when you level. That means that unless you put points in Willpower or Consitution, you will find yourself easy prey by the end game. This is especially true since max hit points helps determine how hard an attack has to be to knock you down.

I think the point of all this is that regardless of class you should seriously consider diversifying stat investment. Even a 2-handed warrior should not just pump up str, for example.

I hope this helps.

Itkovian

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

DA2 is a much different game stat wise then DA:O. You no longer gain stamina or HP at level up. Also, healing is a lot harder to do.

Defense is going to be a lot more important in this game. So your going to want to increase cunning for your tanks to up your defense. The less hits you take, the longer you can tank. You want a defense above 50% at all times. A good distribution for a tank might be 1 str, 1cun, 1 con. Make use of a sustainable (or use a teammate with a party buff) that boosts your defense and you should be good.

You are totally contradicting yourself. Have you even looked at the stat tables in the attribute thread? You cant expect to maintain 50% defense by investing in 1 cunning per level. Heck you wont even have 30% vs bosses if you invest 2 cunning per level. Constituion is flat out better for a main tank. Tanks should invest 0 in cunning.

Its what the dev has said he used on his tank on nightmare so I assume it can work quite well. There are other ways to boost defense. Equipment + party buffs, maybe one of the warrior sustanables that buff defense. These should boost you up to 50% dodge vs mobs. I'm worried purely about normal grunt mobs.

Vs a boss a tank should focus on increasing damage reduction. Mage spells like Barrier, and the various warrior abilites that increase damage resistance should be used. This is where a S&S warrior will really shine since shield defenses +25% damage reduction is HUGE.

Yes peter said he went 1 str, 1 cun, and 1con but he never said it was a good build. The stats clearly tell us that it is a bad build. The only way investing 1 cunning per level is a good build is if you are wearing equipment that somehow doubles your cunning or increases it substantially.

Here's the level 6 data, again, for normal (n%), lieutenant (l%) and boss (b%) enemies.

c_ . . r__ . . n%_ . . l%_ . . b%_
----------------------------------
11 . . 036 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
12 . . 057 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
13 . . 064 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
14 . . 072 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
15 . . 081 . . 008 . . 005 . . 005
16 . . 090 . . 013 . . 005 . . 005
17 . . 101 . . 020 . . 005 . . 005
18 . . 114 . . 032 . . 012 . . 005
19 . . 127 . . 050 . . 030 . . 010 <-- Level 6 optimum?
20 . . 143 . . 054 . . 034 . . 014
21 . . 160 . . 058 . . 038 . . 018
22 . . 179 . . 062 . . 042 . . 022
23 . . 201 . . 067 . . 047 . . 027
24 . . 225 . . 071 . . 051 . . 031
25 . . 252 . . 075 . . 055 . . 035
26 . . 283 . . 079 . . 059 . . 039
27 . . 318 . . 080 . . 062 . . 042
28 . . 355 . . 080 . . 066 . . 046
29 . . 400 . . 080 . . 069 . . 049

Look at this chart again. If you invest 1 point in cunning per level, it leaves you at #16 at level 6. Thats 13% defense vs normals, 5% vs leiutenant, and 5% vs boss. Compare that to 0 in cunning, which is 5% all across. Is 5 attribute points to only gain 8% vs normal enemies worth it to you? Investing 1 per cunning per level is an awful idea, its throwing points away. The only way it would be worth doing, is if you were wearing equipment that boosted your cunning to effective levels.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[Wissenschaft]

I have no idea why you think you need to buff cunning so high that you can dodge 50+% of a bosses attacks? Dodging attacks with defense is going to primarily be useful vs normal mobs only even on a rogue. vs Boss you need to focus on damage reduction since extra hp from con is not going to make up for the damage you will take.

I can't see how pumping con is going to be helpful. Your not going to gain enough extra HP to make up for the ton of extra hits you'll be taking. Unless you plan on having shield defense up all the time in which case the reduced damage might make it tough to keep argo. It also means your tank will effectively be doing nothing but being hit constantly.

Having a Defense of around 0% vs normal mobs is just going to get your tank beat down quickly if and when he gets surrounded. 20 extra points into con is not going to be enough HP especally with how hard it is to heal now.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Atmosfear3]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

DA2 is a much different game stat wise then DA:O. You no longer gain stamina or HP at level up. Also, healing is a lot harder to do.

Defense is going to be a lot more important in this game. So your going to want to increase cunning for your tanks to up your defense. The less hits you take, the longer you can tank. You want a defense above 50% at all times. A good distribution for a tank might be 1 str, 1cun, 1 con. Make use of a sustainable (or use a teammate with a party buff) that boosts your defense and you should be good.

You are totally contradicting yourself. Have you even looked at the stat tables in the attribute thread? You cant expect to maintain 50% defense by investing in 1 cunning per level. Heck you wont even have 30% vs bosses if you invest 2 cunning per level. Constituion is flat out better for a main tank. Tanks should invest 0 in cunning.

Its what the dev has said he used on his tank on nightmare so I assume it can work quite well. There are other ways to boost defense. Equipment + party buffs, maybe one of the warrior sustanables that buff defense. These should boost you up to 50% dodge vs mobs. I'm worried purely about normal grunt mobs.

Vs a boss a tank should focus on increasing damage reduction. Mage spells like Barrier, and the various warrior abilites that increase damage resistance should be used. This is where a S&S warrior will really shine since shield defenses +25% damage reduction is HUGE.

50% dodge would only apply to the normal enemies (i.e. fodder). That defense rating becomes much smaller when you face LTs and bosses. You want mitigation and you can achieve it best by dumping points into Con.

I'm still fairly certain the most optimal build for tanks on Nightmare will be alternating 1str/2con and 2str/1con per each level. I would most likely stop putting points into strength once it was high enough and put the rest into Willpower instead. Theres quite a few sustainables that are worth using that consumes quite a bit of stamina (Turn the Blade, Bravery, etc).

[marcusgs221]

the only prob i have with counting on dodge for a tank is hitting a bad roll streak and not having the hp to survive it. but im sure it can also work

[Wissenschaft]

Well, if you sure your tank can survive large swarms of basic mobs on nightmare with no defense at all. Good luck. I never pump con in DA:O since I found defense far more important for a tank. And defense seems only more important in DA2 in order to survive large mobs of basic enemies.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[qaos_reg1]

1234

[Itkovian]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Yes peter said he went 1 str, 1 cun, and 1con but he never said it was a good build. The stats clearly tell us that it is a bad build. The only way investing 1 cunning per level is a good build is if you are wearing equipment that somehow doubles your cunning or increases it substantially.

Here's the level 6 data, again, for normal (n%), lieutenant (l%) and boss (b%) enemies.

c_ . . r__ . . n%_ . . l%_ . . b%_
----------------------------------
11 . . 036 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
12 . . 057 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
13 . . 064 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
14 . . 072 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
15 . . 081 . . 008 . . 005 . . 005
16 . . 090 . . 013 . . 005 . . 005
17 . . 101 . . 020 . . 005 . . 005
18 . . 114 . . 032 . . 012 . . 005
19 . . 127 . . 050 . . 030 . . 010 <-- Level 6 optimum?
20 . . 143 . . 054 . . 034 . . 014
21 . . 160 . . 058 . . 038 . . 018
22 . . 179 . . 062 . . 042 . . 022
23 . . 201 . . 067 . . 047 . . 027
24 . . 225 . . 071 . . 051 . . 031
25 . . 252 . . 075 . . 055 . . 035
26 . . 283 . . 079 . . 059 . . 039
27 . . 318 . . 080 . . 062 . . 042
28 . . 355 . . 080 . . 066 . . 046
29 . . 400 . . 080 . . 069 . . 049

Look at this chart again. If you invest 1 point in cunning per level, it leaves you at #16 at level 6. Thats 13% defense vs normals, 5% vs leiutenant, and 5% vs boss. Compare that to 0 in cunning, which is 5% all across. Is 5 attribute points to only gain 8% vs normal enemies worth it to you? Investing 1 per cunning per level is an awful idea, its throwing points away. The only way it would be worth doing, is if you were wearing equipment that boosted your cunning to effective levels.

Excellent info, and a good point. It's either you spent 1.5 per level in cunning, or none at all.

This seems to be purpose design to make rogues (who no doubt would invest in cunning as one of their primary stats)  focus on avoidance for defense, while warriors should rely on their damage mitigation and abilities for defense (because warriors definitely should invest in CON and STR already).

Thank you for the info.

Itkovian

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I have no idea why you think you need to buff cunning so high that you can dodge 50+% of a bosses attacks? Dodging attacks with defense is going to primarily be useful vs normal mobs only even on a rogue. vs Boss you need to focus on damage reduction since extra hp from con is not going to make up for the damage you will take.

I can't see how pumping con is going to be helpful. Your not going to gain enough extra HP to make up for the ton of extra hits you'll be taking. Unless you plan on having shield defense up all the time in which case the reduced damage might make it tough to keep argo. It also means your tank will effectively be doing nothing but being hit constantly.

Having a Defense of around 0% vs normal mobs is just going to get your tank beat down quickly if and when he gets surrounded. 20 extra points into con is not going to be enough HP especally with how hard it is to heal now.

As the chart shows, at level 6 you need to have invested 8 points in cunning out of the 15 youve earned in order to have 50% defense against normal enemies. That is slightly more than half of your stat points into cunning, just for 50% vs normal monsters.

A high cunning tank is definitely possible, but a high constitution tank is just better because constitution does not operate on a bell curve like cunning and it allows you to invest more points in other places like strength.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[Wissenschaft]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

I have no idea why you think you need to buff cunning so high that you can dodge 50+% of a bosses attacks? Dodging attacks with defense is going to primarily be useful vs normal mobs only even on a rogue. vs Boss you need to focus on damage reduction since extra hp from con is not going to make up for the damage you will take.

I can't see how pumping con is going to be helpful. Your not going to gain enough extra HP to make up for the ton of extra hits you'll be taking. Unless you plan on having shield defense up all the time in which case the reduced damage might make it tough to keep argo. It also means your tank will effectively be doing nothing but being hit constantly.

Having a Defense of around 0% vs normal mobs is just going to get your tank beat down quickly if and when he gets surrounded. 20 extra points into con is not going to be enough HP especally with how hard it is to heal now.

As the chart shows, at level 6 you need to have invested 8 points in cunning out of the 15 youve earned in order to have 50% defense against normal enemies. That is slightly more than half of your stat points into cunning, just for 50% vs normal monsters.

And like I said, you can do with only 1 cunning per level and use a party buff or substanable. That will get you to around 50% as well. :innocent:

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

I have no idea why you think you need to buff cunning so high that you can dodge 50+% of a bosses attacks? Dodging attacks with defense is going to primarily be useful vs normal mobs only even on a rogue. vs Boss you need to focus on damage reduction since extra hp from con is not going to make up for the damage you will take.

I can't see how pumping con is going to be helpful. Your not going to gain enough extra HP to make up for the ton of extra hits you'll be taking. Unless you plan on having shield defense up all the time in which case the reduced damage might make it tough to keep argo. It also means your tank will effectively be doing nothing but being hit constantly.

Having a Defense of around 0% vs normal mobs is just going to get your tank beat down quickly if and when he gets surrounded. 20 extra points into con is not going to be enough HP especally with how hard it is to heal now.

As the chart shows, at level 6 you need to have invested 8 points in cunning out of the 15 youve earned in order to have 50% defense against normal enemies. That is slightly more than half of your stat points into cunning, just for 50% vs normal monsters.

And like I said, you can do with only 1 cunning per level and use a party buff or substanable. That will get you to around 50% as well. :innocent:

No you cant, 1 cunning per level has you at 13% defense against normals at level 6. Thats only 8% better than 0 in cunning. Where are you gonna get +37% defense? Even if you did manage to get boosted to 50% defense, the person who invests 0 in cunning would be at 42% defense with the same boost. Can you read charts?

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[JustS]

Continue to keep it civil guys.. lots of good information here for many people.

[Atmosfear3]

@Wissenschaft If you've played WoW, the same mechanics apply here. Generally, high armor is more desirable against trash mobs with weak attacks where as avoidance is much better against bosses that hit hard. Since I doubt there would be items to cater to both tanking styles, pumping con will have a much better effect than pumping cunning, leaving you little to no points left for strength, willpower, and con. Just look at what Sabresandiego posted in the chart.

[Wissenschaft]

Shouldn't cunning be at 17 if I place 1 point every turn? Thats 20% defense, no? In which I'll probable place every 3 turn 2 points into cunning just to keep it up around 32%. 32 + 15 from an upgraded turn of blade or battle synergy will give 47% defense. I can just find some equipment to buff defense just a bit more or maybe boost my cunning then I'm golden.

[Wissenschaft]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

@Wissenschaft If you've played WoW, the same mechanics apply here. Generally, high armor is more desirable against trash mobs with weak attacks where as avoidance is much better against bosses that hit hard. Since I doubt there would be items to cater to both tanking styles, pumping con will have a much better effect than pumping cunning, leaving you little to no points left for strength, willpower, and con. Just look at what Sabresandiego posted in the chart.

Ah, I'm just using my DA:O experince. Armor, even massive armor was never enough, if I had low defense on my tank he would die lighting fast against a mob. The only way I found to survive was to buff defense. And boy does it work. Get to around 80+ Defense and a S&S can start to really tank in DA:O on nightmare.

Maybe it has changed in DA2, 2 con per level for 20 levels is still only a messly 100 HP and each lvl up will only be giving you 10 HP. Thats not a lot so part of the problem in seeing how thats going to make a difference unless theres a lot of HP boosting equipment in DA2. Then there might be.

Just saying, the warriors got ways to buff his defense such as turn the blade, it would be odd if defense was not important for a warrior.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Shouldn't cunning be at 17 if I place 1 point every turn? Thats 20% defense, no? In which I'll probable place every 3 turn 2 points into cunning just to keep it up around 32%. 32 + 15 from an upgraded turn of blade or battle synergy will give 47% defense. I can just find some equipment to buff defense just a bit more or maybe boost my cunning then I'm golden.

At level 1 you have 0 attribute points to allocate
2 is 3
3 is 6
4 is 9
5 is 12
6 is 15

Cunning starts at 11 for warriors. 1/3rd of 15 is 5. 5 + 11 = 16

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[October Sixth]

How does the chart support ignoring Cun? You're getting a huge boost against all enemy types (particularly bosses) relative to Con.

Unless enemies start hitting like trucks (and the only boss we've seen so far didn't), there shouldn't be a need for massive health reserves.

[Sabresandiego]

October Sixth wrote...

How does the chart support ignoring Cun? You're getting a huge boost against all enemy types (particularly bosses) relative to Con.

Unless enemies start hitting like trucks (and the only boss we've seen so far didn't), there shouldn't be a need for massive health reserves.

It doesnt support ignoring cunning. It supports either investing heavily in it, or not at all. People saying they want to invest 1 point per level are just throwing points away, unless they somehow find equipment that boosts their cunning to effective levels.

Like I said, a cunning tank is viable, but you need to put in a minimum of 1.5 to 2 points per level into cunning for it to work.

Here are your defenses at level 6 if you invest 2 points per level into cunning

21 . . 160 . . 058 . . 038 . . 018

That makes your healthpool effectively

380hp vs normals 
258hp vs lts
195hp vs bosses

Now if you invest the same 2 points per level into constitution

160 + 50 = 210     and constitution tanks still have 5% avoidance, so 210/.95 = 221

221 effective hp vs bosses, normals, and lts


Remember if you choose cunning, you have to continue to invest 2 points per level in order for it to remain effective, with constitution it remains effective even if I decide to put all 3 points into strength for the next 3 levels.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[October Sixth]

But you think it's inferior, right?

Sabresandiego wrote...

To get enough cunning to make it a stat worthy of using by a tank, you need to put 2 out of 3 points into cunning every level. Leave cunning to the rogues, constitution is for tanks.

[Wissenschaft]

It would be odd if we didn't add any points during character creation but even with that you only need to add a few more points into cunning in order to get to 32% defense by lvl 6.

Also, if you put 2 points into cunning every level that will give you an 18% vs bosses. And in a fully upgraded turn of blade and you'll get 33% defense vs bosses. Thats 1/3 of the attacks missing vs a boss and 58% defense vs normal mobs.

At lvl 6, 2 points into cunning ever lvl will only give you 50 hp. That nothing compared to dodging 1/3 of an enemy bosses attacks.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Romantiq]

Dump into cunning and str

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

It would be odd if we didn't add any points during character creation but even with that you only need to add a few more points into cunning in order to get to 32% defense by lvl 6.

Also, if you put 2 points into cunning every level that will give you an 18% vs bosses. And in a fully upgraded turn of blade and you'll get 33% defense vs bosses. Thats 1/3 of the attacks missing vs a boss and 58% defense vs normal mobs.

At lvl 6, 2 points into cunning ever lvl will only give you 50 hp. That nothing compared to dodging 1/3 of an enemy bosses attacks.

2 points into constitution per level gives you 50 points of health at level 6. Base health is 160, so 210/160 is a 31.25% improvement. Cunning at 2 per level gives you 18% defense vs bosses. That effectively makes your healthpool of 160 = 82% of your actual health pool = 195 and 195/160 = 22%  . Whats better, +22% or +31.25%?

Constitution is better vs bosses, cunning is better against normal and luitenants. But cunning loses effectiveness per level unless you constantly invest in it, meanwhile constitution maintains its effectiveness. 

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Wissenschaft]

Your ignoreing the fact that talents that buff defense give a flat buff that doesn't decrease as you level up. So with 15% defense from turn of blade, that 18% dodge you have vs bosses is actually 33%. Thats huge.

So whats better? A 33% chance to dodge attacks or a 31% increase in HP?

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Your ignoreing the fact that talents that buff defense give a flat buff that doesn't decrease as you level up. So with 15% defense from turn of blade, that 18% dodge you have vs bosses is actually 33%. Thats huge.

So whats better? A 33% chance to dodge attacks or a 31% increase in HP?

you do realize that the person with the 31% increase in hp is getting that same 15% buff right? so whats better 33% chance to dodge attacks or 15% chance to dodge attacks + 31% increase in hp...

you didnt think that you needed cunning in order to use turn the blade did you?

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 06:30 .

[October Sixth]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Your ignoreing the fact that talents that buff defense give a flat buff that doesn't decrease as you level up. So with 15% defense from turn of blade, that 18% dodge you have vs bosses is actually 33%. Thats huge.

So whats better? A 33% chance to dodge attacks or a 31% increase in HP?

I think even this is ignoring the role that normal and lieutenant class enemies play in boss fights. The DA games overwhelmingly favor group fights over duels.