210 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft]

Thank you, October for pulling the words right out my mind.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Sabresandiego]

Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.

Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses. Effective HP = 160/ 1-defense  = effective healthpool

380hp vs normals (1-.6)160=x  x=380
258hp vs lts
195hp vs bosses

Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp. Consitution tank has 5% defense so 350hp/.95 = 368 effective hp

368 effective hp vs normals
368 effective vs lts
368 effective hp vs bosses

When you factor in equipment, its more then likely that cunning will take the advantage on normals and lieutenants again and constitution will remain better vs bosses.

Lets pretend equipment increases your healthpool by 50% so 160 * 1.5 = 240 is now the base hp

Cunning tank= 240 base hp

normals = 600 effective hp
lieutenants = 400 effective hp
bosses = 300 effective hp

Constitution tank = 240 base hp + 190 = 430 hp +5% avoidance = 453 effective hp

normals = 453 effective hp
lieutenants = 453 effective hp
bosses = 453 effective hp

As you can see the trend is clear. Constitution tanks are better vs bosses and have more leniency in diversifying stats. Cunning tanks are better vs normals and about equal vs lieutenants but you must consistantly invest 2 points in cunning per level to maintain the defense. Its your choice but for me its clear that constitution is the better tank, especially at the higher levels.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[October Sixth]

Sabresandiego wrote...

 Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.
Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses.
Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp. 350/160 = 218% = +118% increase in survivability from base health. 
Thats +118% survivability from constitution, compared to cunning which gives +25% vs bosses 
None of this takes equipment into account

Do you have the math (or another table) available?

[Wissenschaft]

Except that your going to get hit so often that hp is going to go down very fast. I know that strategy would get you kill asap in DA:O. We'll see how effective it is in DA2. It could well be that both styles are equally effective.

Personly that data still makes me think pumping defense is well worth it especially if I can find equipment to pump my defense even more. Also, pumping so much into cunning should make my crits very damaging. Add in a death hex from a mage and BAM. My tank will be dishing out some decent damage as well.

[Sabresandiego]

October Sixth wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

 Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.
Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses.
Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp. 350/160 = 218% = +118% increase in survivability from base health. 
Thats +118% survivability from constitution, compared to cunning which gives +25% vs bosses 
None of this takes equipment into account

Do you have the math (or another table) available?

I edited my post, my math was wrong.

[Sabresandiego]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Except that your going to get hit so often that hp is going to go down very fast. I know that strategy would get you kill asap in DA:O. We'll see how effective it is in DA2. It could well be that both styles are equally effective.

Personly that data still makes me think pumping defense is well worth it especially if I can find equipment to pump my defense even more. Also, pumping so much into cunning should make my crits very damaging. Add in a death hex from a mage and BAM. My tank will be dishing out some decent damage as well.

The math shows that a cunning tank is indeed very good, but only if you invest a minimum of half of your points every level into cunning. As soon as you stop investing points into cunning, you risk leaving the effective zone of cunning and having your defense values drop.

[jooter]

I can see my tank just taunting and kiting

[TheOneAndOni]

Sabresandiego wrote...

 Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.

Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses. Effective HP = 1-defense% * 160 = effective healthpool

380hp vs normals (1-.6)160=x  x=380
258hp vs lts
195hp vs bosses


Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp.

350hp vs normals
350hp vs lts
350hp vs bosses

When you factor in equipment, its more then likely that cunning will take the advantage on normals and lts again and constitution will remain better vs bosses.

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but how are you calculating the effective healthpool for the Cunning Tank?  As I understand it, Cunning increases Defense, which in turn increases avoidance.  The effective health value of avoidance is a function of incoming DPS, not the tank's health pool.

Modifié par TheOneAndOni, 03 mars 2011 - 06:58 .

[marcusgs221]

for all we know the set up for gear has also changed if you have to dump almost all you points into cunning its not worth it. and i may be wrong but didnt the devs say thats what they are trying to avoid

[Sabresandiego]

TheOneAndOni wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

 Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.

Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses. Effective HP = 1-defense% * 160 = effective healthpool

380hp vs normals (1-.6)160=x  x=380
258hp vs lts
195hp vs bosses


Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp.

350hp vs normals
350hp vs lts
350hp vs bosses

When you factor in equipment, its more then likely that cunning will take the advantage on normals and lts again and constitution will remain better vs bosses.

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but how are you calculating the effective healthpool for the Cunning Tank?  As I understand it, Cunning increases Defense, which in turn increases avoidance.  The effective health value of avoidance is a function of incoming DPS, not the tank's health pool.

no its a function of your healthpool. If your avoidance is 20% then you are only taking 80% of the damage that someone with 0% avoidance would be taking. So divide your healthpool by 80% to get your effective health. I forgot that constitution tanks have 5% avoidance, not 0% so i have to re-edit my math.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[CubbieBlue66]

In a vacuum, I see the argument of CON versus CUN. However, a good deal of this argument seems unnecessary since it appears that the better armors are going to require a commitment of STR and CON.

I see it as very unlikely that CUN provides a large enough bonus to outweigh CON + equipment bonuses.

[TheOneAndOni]

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheOneAndOni wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

 Here is some level 20 math for everyone so you can compare a constitution tank vs a cunning tank.

Cunning tank: If you invest at 2 points per level you will maintain a defense profile of roughly 60% 40% 20% normals, lieutenants, bosses. Effective HP = 1-defense% * 160 = effective healthpool

380hp vs normals (1-.6)160=x  x=380
258hp vs lts
195hp vs bosses


Constitution tank: If you invest 2 points per level, by level 20 you've gained 190 hitpoints. Starting hitpoints is at 160. 190+160 = 350 hp.

350hp vs normals
350hp vs lts
350hp vs bosses

When you factor in equipment, its more then likely that cunning will take the advantage on normals and lts again and constitution will remain better vs bosses.

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but how are you calculating the effective healthpool for the Cunning Tank?  As I understand it, Cunning increases Defense, which in turn increases avoidance.  The effective health value of avoidance is a function of incoming DPS, not the tank's health pool.

no its a function of your healthpool. If your avoidance is 20% then you are only taking 80% of the damage that someone with 0% avoidance would be taking. So divide your healthpool by 80% to get your effective health. I forgot that constitution tanks have 5% avoidance, not 0% so i have to re-edit my math.

Sorry, you are right; I was thinking about time-to-live (TTL), at which point the question comes down to whether or not there is enough healing in DA2 for TTL to be an important factor in determining stat weight.

[TheOneAndOni]

Double post FTL.

Modifié par TheOneAndOni, 03 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[Sabresandiego]

One thing that is becoming obvious is that unless gear gives you a significant amount of health, cunning tanks are superior in the earlier levels, cunning tanks and constitution tanks are both about equal in the mid levels and constitution tanks are superior in the later levels 14+.

Constitution tanks are severely outperformed against normal enemies and lieutenants until level 14 or so, however they are as good or better against bosses through the whole game. In the later levels, especially around level 20, a constitution tank is significantly better than a cunning tank vs bosses and can match them against lieutanants as well. Cunning tanks do significantly outperform constitution tanks against normal enemies though. This is all assuming gear doesnt outrageously increase healthpools or defense values which would totally invalidate these numbers. Also assumes that they havent changed the math for cunning defense calculations per level from the demo.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Atmosfear3]

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

In a vacuum, I see the argument of CON versus CUN. However, a good deal of this argument seems unnecessary since it appears that the better armors are going to require a commitment of STR and CON.

I see it as very unlikely that CUN provides a large enough bonus to outweigh CON + equipment bonuses.

Precisely. Not only do you need enough STR and CON to equip armors, you'll also need some modicum of willpower/stamina as well. I forsee several consequences of playing as CUN tank as opposed to a CON tank:

a) You'll have much less strength, making your attacks glance much more often, affecting your threat and dragging your fights on. This probably won't a huge problem since warriors in general tend to generate superior threat to the other two classes.

You'll have difficulty having enough stats to equip the higher level armors.

c) If you get a bad streak of non-dodges, your tank is going to eat every hit. Playing with chance isn't for everyone and is bad gameplay in general.

[Sabresandiego]

The interesting thing about a cunning tank is that they can become nearly impervious to normal enemies (non bosses) which is something a constitution tank cant do as well. I still feel that overall constitution is better than cunning.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:26 .

[Wissenschaft]

Well, too many unknowns so far so we shall have to wait until we can see what equipment we get. If the con requirements for armor are high then yeah, your going to want to just drop cunning. If you don't need much con to equip armor then it might be worth it going for a decent about of defense.

It depends on how much damage enemies can do to you. I do know in the demo that giving my tank decent defense helps a lot but thats still low level.

If we do get a respec, you can focus on high defense at the start of the game and then when your at a high level you can respec your tank and switch to high con build. That might be best.

Depends on how easy it is to maintain a high damage resistance score. And how effect enemies are at piercing that damage resistance.

Lots of questions that still need to be answered.

"c) If you get a bad streak of non-dodges, your tank is going to eat every hit. Playing with chance isn't for everyone and is bad gameplay in general."

And with very low defense your guaranteed to take a beating.

Still, if defense bottoms out at 5% then with a maxed turn the blade, your tank always has a 20% dodge vs bosses. Which is not bad at all. Just worried about how to deal with swarms in that case which may require taking lots of crowd control spells and talents on my mages and rogues.

[Wissenschaft]

Sabresandiego wrote...

The interesting thing about a cunning tank is that they can become nearly impervious to normal enemies (non bosses) which is something a constitution tank cant do as well. I still feel that overall constitution is better than cunning.

Thats the main difference between us then. I'm far more worried about mobs of normal enemies than the enemy boss. I do plan on playing with 2 rogues (Isabela and myself as an Archer) so I'm quite confident about being able to dish out a redicilious about of damage to any boss.

In DA:O it was always the mobs of normals/elites that caused me the most diffuculty. Bosses were pretty much far more easy to deal with. The only real exception was the high dragon and you just needed to get high fire resistance and always stay on the dragons side in other to survive that fight.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[Nonoru]

Some good info in this thread.

[Sabresandiego]

This entire time we have been talking about cunning tanks vs con tanks, but a hybrid tank might actually be ideal(spoiler: its not). Take a look at these two graphs and their optimum points. The first is attack, the second is defense. Both are level 6 at which point you have 15 attribute to spend.


Strength Level 6
----------------------------------
13 . . 064 . . 053 . . 038 . . 023
14 . . 072 . . 055 . . 040 . . 025
15 . . 081 . . 058 . . 043 . . 028
16 . . 090 . . 063 . . 048 . . 033
17 . . 101 . . 070 . . 055 . . 040
18 . . 114 . . 082 . . 067 . . 052
19 . . 127 . . 100 . . 085 . . 070 <-- Level 6 Optimum?
20 . . 143 . . 100 . . 089 . . 074
21 . . 160 . . 100 . . 093 . . 078
22 . . 179 . . 100 . . 097 . . 082
23 . . 201 . . 100 . . 100 . . 087
24 . . 225 . . 100 . . 100 . . 091
25 . . 252 . . 100 . . 100 . . 095
26 . . 283 . . 100 . . 100 . . 099
27 . . 318 . . 100 . . 100 . . 100
28 . . 355 . . 100 . . 100 . . 100
29 . . 400 . . 100 . . 100 . . 100
30 . . 448 . . 100 . . 100 . . 100
31 . . 501 . . 100 . . 100 . . 100

Cunning Level 6
11 . . 036 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
12 . . 057 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
13 . . 064 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
14 . . 072 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
15 . . 081 . . 008 . . 005 . . 005
16 . . 090 . . 013 . . 005 . . 005
17 . . 101 . . 020 . . 005 . . 005
18 . . 114 . . 032 . . 012 . . 005
19 . . 127 . . 050 . . 030 . . 010 <-- Level 6 optimum?
20 . . 143 . . 054 . . 034 . . 014
21 . . 160 . . 058 . . 038 . . 018
22 . . 179 . . 062 . . 042 . . 022
23 . . 201 . . 067 . . 047 . . 027
24 . . 225 . . 071 . . 051 . . 031
25 . . 252 . . 075 . . 055 . . 035
26 . . 283 . . 079 . . 059 . . 039
27 . . 318 . . 080 . . 062 . . 042
28 . . 355 . . 080 . . 066 . . 046
29 . . 400 . . 080 . . 069 . . 049

You can actually hit both optimums and still put 1 point into constitution. The ratio is as follows

6/15 points into strength
8/15 points into cunning
1/15 into constitution

Lets look at level 20 for this. Out of 57 talent points

23 strength
30 cunning
4 constitution

Base HP = 160 + 20 = 180
Defense ratios are 50 30 10

Normals= 360 effective HP
Leiutenants = 257 effective HP
Boss = 200 Effective HP

Compare this to a constitution tank who also puts 23 points in strength

23 strength
34 constitution

Base HP = 160 + 170 = 330
Defense ratios are 5 5 5

Normals = 347 effective HP
Leiutenants = 347 effective HP
Boss = 347 Effective HP

Looks like constitution tank is better than a hybrid tank before taking gear and defense buffs into the equation.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Wissenschaft]

That was my original plan when I stated I wanted str 1/ cun 1/ con 1 every turn.

10% versus bosses + upgraded turn the blade gives you 25% 1/4 a bosses attacks will miss and your still managing to increase your con.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 07:42 .

[Wissenschaft]

I believe talents that effect the same stat don't stack. So its either use Heroic Aura (looks to be the best party buff in the game by far) or Battle Synergy (also gives +15% def if you keep your party close together and 9% damage reduction - this is with 3 companions in range) Battle Synergy also has the added benefit of being upgraded to constantly transfer agro from your party in range to the tank. Which is huge bonus for using it. I think it might be better than using turn the blade if you can keep your party close to your tank.