210 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft]

Sabresandiego - could you do the math for an effective hybrid tank? The goal being to have 10% dodge vs bosses at lvl 20. 10% dodge is a 25% dodge with one of sustainables.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Sabresandiego]

The interesting thing about defense values is that it is an exponential increase. For example compare 40% defense to 60 % defense. Someone with 40% defense takes 50% more damage than someone with 60% defense. However now compare 40% defense to 80% defense. The person at 40% defense takes 300% more damage then someone at 80% defense. This math is basically showing us that if you want to be a cunning tank, you basically need to invest all out into cunning.

[Wissenschaft]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

I believe talents that effect the same stat don't stack. So its either use Heroic Aura (looks to be the best party buff in the game by far) or Battle Synergy (also gives +15% def if you keep your party close together and 9% damage reduction - this is with 3 companions in range) Battle Synergy also has the added benefit of being upgraded to constantly transfer agro from your party in range to the tank. Which is huge bonus for using it. I think it might be better than using turn the blade if you can keep your party close to your tank.

Peter Thomas has said that two Heroic Auras won't stack, but Heroic Aura stacks with Battle Synergy, which is designed to encourage cross-class collaboration.

I asked that question in the thread and I got a responce that they don't stack.

[Sabresandiego]

The way defense works is very interesting. The more defense you have, the better each% of defense is. Let me give you an example. Defense maxes at 80%. At 80% defense your effective health pool is 5x your base health pool (because you only take 20% of the damage).

80% defense = 5x = effective health is 5x base health
75% defense = 4x
66% defense = 3x
50% defense = 2x
33% defense =1.5x
0% defense = 1x

If you notice the trend, the higher your defense gets, the MORE VALUE each percentage of defense is. A measly 5% gain in defense from 75% to 80% gives you an entire additional health pool worth of effective health. Your first 30% of defense isnt even worth half a health bar, but your last 5% is worth an entire health bar. This is why they capped defense at 80%.

Clearly, defense starts really ramping up at 50%. Defense becomes extremely powerful once you are over 50%. Here are methods of buffing defense:

Turn the blade: 10% or 15% with upgrade
Heroic Aura: 8%
Arcane Wall: 5%
Battle Synergy: +5% to +20%

Thats +28% to +48% right there. Defense can be very strong if you max it out and focus on it. Its not something to half-ass and dabble into because you dont get real returns until breaking 50% defense.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[Jacobuskatt]

Aren't we forgetting another important factor about tanking? It is what Peter Thomas has called Force Reactions. He says....
"Force reactions work based on how much damage you take vs your total health.if any single hit does more than 10% of your max health, you'll play a reaction animation (of arying strength) and your current action will be interrupted. Some attacks have a bonus to force as well (say a x2 multiplier, so 5% of your health in one hit counts as if it was 10% for force purposes)."
http://social.biowar...ndex/6090138/38

What this means is that even if a cunning tank has good avoidance, when he does take hits, he is going to be much more likely to be 'interrupted' by that hit, since his max health is so much lower. If we assume equipment does not boost hp very much, then a constitution tank does get an advantage when taking heavy hits. Early game this may not matter much, but late game, a constitution tank will have enough hp to almost never be interrupted by the force of a hit, but it seems a cunning tank will be at least twice as likely to be interrupted late game as they were early game.

The only sustainable skill I can see that would potentially make this a non-issue is Turn the Blade's upgrade, Steady the Foot, which adds 20 fortitude, but if any enemy attacks have a force multiplier, I think a cunning tank might end up taking lots of force reactions towards the late game.

[Sabresandiego]

Jacobuskatt wrote...

Aren't we forgetting another important factor about tanking? It is what Peter Thomas has called Force Reactions. He says....
"Force reactions work based on how much damage you take vs your total health.if any single hit does more than 10% of your max health, you'll play a reaction animation (of arying strength) and your current action will be interrupted. Some attacks have a bonus to force as well (say a x2 multiplier, so 5% of your health in one hit counts as if it was 10% for force purposes)."
http://social.biowar...ndex/6090138/38

What this means is that even if a cunning tank has good avoidance, when he does take hits, he is going to be much more likely to be 'interrupted' by that hit, since his max health is so much lower. If we assume equipment does not boost hp very much, then a constitution tank does get an advantage when taking heavy hits. Early game this may not matter much, but late game, a constitution tank will have enough hp to almost never be interrupted by the force of a hit, but it seems a cunning tank will be at least twice as likely to be interrupted late game as they were early game.

The only sustainable skill I can see that would potentially make this a non-issue is Turn the Blade's upgrade, Steady the Foot, which adds 20 fortitude, but if any enemy attacks have a force multiplier, I think a cunning tank might end up taking lots of force reactions towards the late game.

7. Resilience
Requires: Level 5
Requires: Turn the Blade
Requires: Elemental Aegis
Points required in Defender: 2
Warriors trained in resilience have learned not to flinch from wounds, making it almost impossible to break their attacks, push them backwards, or distract them with elemental effects like mild immolation. The warrior will only be interrupted by attacks that deal so much force as to knock the warrior completely down or that cause lengthy elemental effects.
Knockbackresistance: 100%
Type: Passive ability

made for cunning tanks

[Jacobuskatt]

Aha. Thanks Sabresandiego.

On another note, do you think most tanks will want both Shield Defense and Turn the Blade active at all times? It's only 35% stamina reserve, for the added 10% defense,+25% vs. frontal attacks, with the option for +50% vs rear, +another 5% defense, +immune to knockback. That's some pretty sweet defense, although that doesn't include any of the threat generation skills that will be important.

[Sabresandiego]

Jacobuskatt wrote...

Aha. Thanks Sabresandiego.

On another note, do you think most tanks will want both Shield Defense and Turn the Blade active at all times? It's only 35% stamina reserve, for the added 10% defense,+25% vs. frontal attacks, with the option for +50% vs rear, +another 5% defense, +immune to knockback. That's some pretty sweet defense, although that doesn't include any of the threat generation skills that will be important.

Turn the blade is not worth it unless you already have 40%+ defense in my opinion. If your warrior doesnt use much stamina though, go ahead and use it.

[borelocin]

I reckon I will go with even Str/Cun/Con until I hit the max strength required for sexy gear, then go 2 Cun/1Con from there on.

Tried this build in the demo on Nightmare with Level 21 Tank and the full Sword and Shield tree - he was pretty much indestructible while stamina held out. Once he didn't have stamina left to taunt things got messy, so I'd say this build would have to go heavily into the Battlemaster tree.

Modifié par borelocin, 03 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[manneger]

I think Sabresandiego has a point in constitution having greater potential than cunning overall, mainly in my opinion due to the better flexibility. But. I wouldnt be surprised if we get enough extra points to attributes from equipment and extras like the fade in DAO to completely turn this issue around. As long as we are limited to 3 points/level the effective need to use 1.5 points cunning/level is very crippling. But assuming we can gain 1 extra point per level completely turns this around, and i would really not be surprised if we have access to 20 extra point by level 20.
In that case then you "only" need to use 1.5 out of 4 points per level on cunning, which leaves 2.5 points per level for str, con and will.

So basically i think that with no extra points a cun build sucks since you need to spend half your points into cun which doesnt leave enough room for other attriutes, but with the extra points you could for instance do 1.5 cun, 1 str, 1 con 0.5 will each level on average, which should be fairly good.

[JustS]

Though there are some really solid arguments here for Cunning... Still a debating a bit.. I guess its going to come down to some gear requirements that I really do not know until I can get my hands on the strat guide.

[rekkaman]

would fenris be a viable tank with a 2hander going 1str, 1cun, 1 con, with that talent he has that gives him 20 percent defense

[JustS]

Well from what I am reading.. Two handers don't make the best tanks here. Though there is another post all about "Sword and shield not the only way to tank" or something like that.

[0rz0]

I still see two hander tanks doing less toe to to with mobs and instead managing with tremor, mighty blow and other stuff that makes mobs eat dirt.

Btw, noone gonna put points into magic for spell resists?

Oh, just by the way - if going by the demo is right - if you don't put anything/little into cunning, you'll still  have 5% minimum, but the game takes your base value when applying buffs. So while you have 5% normally and use a 10% buff you might have 12% (instead of 15). Small difference, I know, but there it is.

Modifié par 0rz0, 03 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[Siven80]

i would say 1 str per level to keep 100 attack rating, and then a bit of both cunning for defense and con, but overall more Con than cunning.

Why?

Damage resistance stat.

Look at the warrior abilites available, in the W&S tree: shield defense +25% damage resistance from the front, Shield wall the upgrade gives +50% damage resistance from the rear (and front i think reading the decription. Safeguard: immune to crits.
Defender tree: stonewall, activate to have 10 secs of +50% damage resistance, upgrade improves that. Adamant: passive 5% damage resistance.

Many people seem to be ignoring the damage resistance stat to their peril, and imo that will increase the value of Con for tanks substantually.

Thats not to say defense is useless for tanks, but IMO its not as important as Con.

Add the fact you dont gain HP per level now only increases the need for Con imo, and heavier armors apparently have a str &con stat level to equip.

Now i still think you will need some defense too, and with all the +Defense % abilities about , they will boost that nicely, but i see it as a  lower priority than Con.

I played my DAO tank with 26dex, 26 con and the rest in Str and he was fantastic. It was enough defense for normals to barely hit him, and enough con to soak damage.

Modifié par Siven80, 03 mars 2011 - 01:55 .

[jheise4321]

The thing about constitution is that you have to put about 60% of all the attribute points you gain from levels 1-20 just to double your health from 160 to 320. That seems like a big investment to me with little payoff.

[0x30A88]

Have Bethany or MageHawke give the tank healing and resistance buffs. Con and strength is the priarity. If you can get blood dragon armor or whatever it's called -- it's worth around 4.8 constitution points of health (+24).

Another healer would be good, but DPSers are really important. Maybe a dps mage that'll heal only if necesary -- like when the healer is low on mana/early on cooldown.

[DarkDolphin]

What about only Cun + Con and no Str?

Pros
1. For Aveline, the companion armor is auto-upgraded (companion has only 1 total armor -- no helm, boots, gloves) No need to worry for Str armor requirement.
2. Generate threat using talents / taunt / other parties redirecting to tank?
3. For knockdown resistence, due to lack of Str, use resilence passive.
4. Talents always hit but will do less damage, focus on stunning instead?

Cons
1. Works with companions only, player's character requires high str to equip better armor.
2. Dealing no damage from auto-attack.
3. Can lose threat generation, need more management.
4. When ran out of Stamina to use talents, 2 and 3 become more problematic.

Viable?

Modifié par DarkDolphin, 03 mars 2011 - 02:57 .

[JustS]

hah thats hard to say dark, but lots of the gear I believe requires STR from what I heard so you would be really hard pressed to go through with that build.

[DarkDolphin]

JustS wrote...

hah thats hard to say dark, but lots of the gear I believe requires STR from what I heard so you would be really hard pressed to go through with that build.

Nono if we use a companion tank (Aveline), all her armors including Body / Helmet / Boots / Gloves are in 1 piece and is auto-upgraded each level.

For player's character then I think it's not possible because of Str requirement, of course.

(edited the earlier post)

Modifié par DarkDolphin, 03 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

Well, I got bored, twiddled with the demo and the ability points the demo gives if leveled to 20, and built an excel sheet to get Effective Health values from differing values of Cunning/Constitution. I gave the character 40 Strength, as that was the point Attack chance was 100% versus normal (bare minimum according to most), and used Sabresandiego's method of calculating Effective Health. The interesting points for just Defense versus Health are:

Cun-11, Con-54; 5% Defense, 370 Health. EfH= 389.47
Cun-39, Con-26; 32% Defense, 230 Health. EfH= 338.24
Cun-40, Con-25; 50% Defense, 225 Health. EfH= 450.00
Cun-45, Con-20; 51% Def(vs Lt.), 200 Health. EfH(vLt)= 408.16

Interesting Notes:
-Above results use no buffs and no abilites.
-Effective Health continues to increase against normal rank up to 48 Cun/80% Def; EfH 925. Drops after this point.
-Effective Health against lieutenant and boss ranks continually increases. 53 Cun(max without dropping Str); 80/76/56%; EfH 800/666.67/363.64.
-Effective Fortitude ranges 46-67 (30 from Strength, rest=10% Health)
-While Sabre's method ( Health/(1-D%) ) is a sound formula for these purposes, it does not take into account the varying values of damage incoming (which is what makes avoidance luck-based). The formula expects the same constant value on every attack.
-At level 20 in the demo, you have 69 Ability Points to spend; 3 per level, additional 3 at 5, 10, 15, and 20.
-Defense Rating: 39 Cunning gives 1261 Rating; 45 Cunning - 2519; 53 Cunning - 6344. WTH amounts of stats are we going to see on level 20 gear!?

Things that can changes these values:
-Armor, Damage Resistance, Group Defense buffs: Either build direction will gain varying values from each of these that I did not take into account.
-Tweaks to attribute contributions (amount of Defense/Health/etc.)
-Gear: Stat requirements will force the character to either need certain amount of each stat, and/or stack specific gear for specific stats (to meet the higher stat requiring pieces of gear). This includes Strength.
-Bonus ability points from plot/tomes.


...TL:DR - Optimal balance/direction will not really be known until we know late-game stat requirements and what stats are on the equipment. Heavy constitution would be the safest route; Cunning could potentially get more bang for buck, but could also trash your character if gear requires roughly 26 or more Constitution.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 03 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

@DarkDolphin: Weapons and Shields have stat requirements as well. The idea of no STR hinges completely on finding high end gear without stat requirements, or DLC "auto-leveling" gear that either doesn't require stats or doesn't have increasing stat reqs.

[Coldest]

How do you guys get all the way to level 20 in the demo?