210 réponses à ce sujet

[BigJas]

Just thought I'd throw this in. The shield with the highest requirement needs 32 CON.

link

Edit: just noticed it's already been mentioned twice. Doh!

Modifié par BigJas, 03 mars 2011 - 07:26 .

[0rz0]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Level 6 Warrior

Strength

13..023..008..005
14..029..014..005
15..036..021..006
16..044..029..014
17..054..039..024
18..061..046..031
19..062..047..032
20..064..049..034
21..065..050..035
22..067..052..037
23..069..054..039
24..070..055..040
25..072..057..042
26..073..058..043
27..075..060..045
28..077..062..047



Cunning

10..005..005..005
11..005..005..005
12..007..005..005
13..009..005..005
14..012..005..005
15..016..005..005
16..020..005..005
17..023..005..005
18..026..006..005
19..029..009..005
20..032..012..005
21..035..015..005
22..038..018..005
23..041..021..005
24..044..024..005
25..047..027..007

Interesting, that's very different from the demo. Looks like it won't be as easy to get 100% hit rate  .

Edit: my brain lagged or something, I've no idea how I missed half an hour of posts...

Modifié par 0rz0, 03 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[KallDay]

Visiting the link above, it looks like a lot of tank gear has +attack, so reaching respectable percentages shouldn't be too much of a problem, even when not maxing Str.

[Itkovian]

Keep in mind that a cunning build tank will be very vulnerable to knockdowns compared to a con tank.

Even the ability to shrug off knockback does NOT protect against knockdowns.

So as long as you're taking lighter damage it won't impede you, but since cun-based tanks will have less hit points they will get knocked down more easily (and yes, turn the blade helps with that, but of course a con-based tank can take it too and have a much higher fortitude).

Also, keep in mind that there are likely attacks that ignore defense (fireballs and such).

Itkovian

[Rasputin]

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

In a vacuum, I see the argument of CON versus CUN. However, a good deal of this argument seems unnecessary since it appears that the better armors are going to require a commitment of STR and CON.

I see it as very unlikely that CUN provides a large enough bonus to outweigh CON + equipment bonuses.

this +1

[0rz0]

Eh you should have moved this discussion into Naitaka's thread, so we'd have all mechanics on one pile .

[Sabresandiego]

The new tables have settled the argument. Constitution is the primary stat for tanks.

[0rz0]

Though are you sure it's 5 hp per point still?

[Wissenschaft]

Well, this changes everything. Never mind, Str/Con is the way to go without doubt now. You need a lot of con just to get the best equipment and cunning reduction is a large flat -30% vs bosses. Never mind. LoL.

This doesn't mean defense is useless. With a base 5% defense, having both Battle Syngery and Heroic Aura, your tank will have 30% dodge. Thats almost a 1/3% chance to dodge attacks from a boss. Thats not bad at all.

So you'll still want to increase your defense but not by increasing your cunning (unless its with bonus points from equipment).

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 03 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[October Sixth]

0rz0 wrote...

Though are you sure it's 5 hp per point still?

That would spark a fresh round, wouldn't it?

[Kyosukedei]

bring on the monks from nw2, 60 ac immune to everything. Win.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Constitution as primary, yes. Cunning would still have it's uses, but there won't be any high flying ninja tanks going around.

@Wissenschaft: Not exactly. If I understand Peter's posts, Defense % is the greater of (Calc.Def%+Def%buffs-30%vBoss) or 5%, against bosses. That would mean you would need to have 13 Cunning or higher, with BS/HA up, to see Defense vs. Boss > 5% (would see 7% vBoss). (9%+28%-30%=7%)

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 03 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Wissenschaft]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Constitution as primary, yes. Cunning would still have it's uses, but there won't be any high flying ninja tanks going around.

@Wissenschaft: Not exactly. If I understand Peter's posts, Defense % is the greater of (Calc.Def%+Def%buffs-30%vBoss) or 5%, against bosses. That would mean you would need to have 13 Cunning or higher, with BS/HA up, to see Defense vs. Boss > 5% (would see 7% vBoss). (9%+28%-30%=7%)

Awww, thats suchs. That means high Def is only useful vs Normal Enemies. In which case, Damage Resistance and high con is far FAR more important.

[GoodApollo83]

Really glad I came across this topic. I was planning on doing my DA:O strategy of mostly Dex, min Str requirements and a little Con. When I played the demo I saw that Cunning was the new Defense stat so I planned on focusing on Cunning... which I now know would have blown.

Great job!

[Zhel_Ryn]

Not necessarily blown, but a cunning build is highly dependent on having as many +Def% buffs as possible. With the above named Defense buffs and numbers (BS+TtB+HA=38), Cunning would beat pure Constitution at 14 Cunning by 2 Effective Health; both with the same buffs, against a boss, with 21 Strength, 19 Con, 14 Cun. This Difference would increase as you move more Con to Cun. Granted, you still run into the issue of needing Con for gear, and now you add the need to have multiple sustains running. Is it worth it? Up to the player I guess.

These numbers do better fit with Peter's STR/CON with some CUN Aveline build mentioned in TGS thread though.

Curious though, is Battle Syngery really 20% with everyone nearby? You technically will only have 3 companions near your character/warrior, so shouldn't it be 15%?

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 03 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Sabresandiego]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Not necessarily blown, but a cunning build is highly dependent on having as many +Def% buffs as possible. With the above named Defense buffs and numbers (BS+TtB+HA=38), Cunning would beat pure Constitution at 14 Cunning by 2 Effective Health; both with the same buffs, against a boss, with 21 Strength, 19 Con, 14 Cun. This Difference would increase as you move more Con to Cun. Granted, you still run into the issue of needing Con for gear, and now you add the need to have multiple sustains running. Is it worth it? Up to the player I guess.

These numbers do better fit with Peter's STR/CON with some CUN Aveline build mentioned in TGS thread though.

Curious though, is Battle Syngery really 20% with everyone nearby? You technically will only have 3 companions near your character/warrior, so shouldn't it be 15%?

Your math doesnt make sense to me. Going pure cunning gives you 7% vs boss meanwhile pure con has 5% vs boss. The difference being that the con build has a ton more health. Con is always better vs bosses, even if you go full cunning. All defense buffs like heroic aura and battle synergy can be used by anyone regardless of build.

Cunning is absolutely worthless against bosses. If you plan on having the most effective tank (one who can tank bosses like the high dragon) you should invest 0 into cunning and everything into constitution, with just enough strength to hit your enemy reliably.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[Peter Thomas]

Here are some numbers from a lategame Aveline.

285 Health
25% Defense (cunning and equipment)
+15% Turn the Blade
+7.5% Heroic Aura

Effective Health:
537 vs normal (47%)
390 vs lieutenant (27%)
306 vs boss (7%)


If she had all her points put into Constitution instead of Cunning. (402 Health)
522 vs normal (23%)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)


This build was slightly better against normal enemies (Critter/Normal) who are the vast majority of enemies, and weaker against lieutenants and bosses. This was also not a build built optimally for Defense. I didn't have Arcane Wall, I didn't build around Battle Synergy, and I didn't install possible Defense runes.

Here's the same version, but with Arcane Wall and Defense runes.

Cunning:
1133 vs normal (76%)
618 vs lieutenant (56%)
425 vs boss (36%)

Constitution:
705 vs normal (43%)
522 vs lieutenant (23%)
423 vs boss (5%; default)

The higher your Defense is, the more benefit you'll gain from each flat % increase. Going from 90% to 80% is better than going from 100% to 90%. The problem is that you have to constantly be putting more into Defense to keep it up, as well as the reserved Stamina/Mana from the extra abilities.

Defense caps at 80%, but that's done after all calculations including rank modifier. Having a Defense that is effectively 110% would mean that you have 80% vs normals, 80% vs lieutenants, and 70% vs bosses.

[Sabresandiego]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Here are some numbers from a lategame Aveline.

285 Health
25% Defense (cunning and equipment)
+15% Turn the Blade
+7.5% Heroic Aura

Effective Health:
537 vs normal (47%)
390 vs lieutenant (27%)
306 vs boss (7%)


If she had all her points put into Constitution instead of Cunning. (402 Health)
522 vs normal (23%)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)


This build was slightly better against normal enemies (Critter/Normal) who are the vast majority of enemies, and weaker against lieutenants and bosses. This was also not a build built optimally for Defense. I didn't have Arcane Wall, I didn't build around Battle Synergy, and I didn't install possible Defense runes.

Here's the same version, but with Arcane Wall and Defense runes.

Cunning:
1133 vs normal (76%)
618 vs lieutenant (56%)
425 vs boss (36%)

Constitution:
705 vs normal (43%)
522 vs lieutenant (23%)
423 vs boss (5%; default)

The higher your Defense is, the more benefit you'll gain from each flat % increase. Going from 90% to 80% is better than going from 100% to 90%. The problem is that you have to constantly be putting more into Defense to keep it up, as well as the reserved Stamina/Mana from the extra abilities.

Defense caps at 80%, but that's done after all calculations including rank modifier. Having a Defense that is effectively 110% would mean that you have 80% vs normals, 80% vs lieutenants, and 70% vs bosses.

Peter, earlier you had stated that abilities and sustains that give you +10% defense (like turn the blade) give it to you across all categories. (meaning norma, leuitenant, and boss). That means with turn the blade you would have 15% normal, 15% leuitenant, 15% boss since 5% normal, 5% leiutenant, 5% boss is default. Was the information you gave earlier inaccurate? Or did you calculate effective health without respect to the auras.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 09:05 .

[CubbieBlue66]

Is constitution not a flat +5 increase? If it is, I'm struggling with how you got to 402 HP.

[October Sixth]

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Is constitution not a flat +5 increase? If it is, I'm struggling with how you got to 402 HP.

I'd like to know this as well. I'm also curious why Battle Synergy isn't included there.

[0rz0]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Here are some numbers from a lategame Aveline.

285 Health
25% Defense (cunning and equipment)
+15% Turn the Blade
+7.5% Heroic Aura

Effective Health:
537 vs normal (47%)
390 vs lieutenant (27%)
306 vs boss (7%)


If she had all her points put into Constitution instead of Cunning. (402 Health)
522 vs normal (23%)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)


This
build was slightly better against normal enemies (Critter/Normal) who
are the vast majority of enemies, and weaker against lieutenants and
bosses. This was also not a build built optimally for Defense. I didn't
have Arcane Wall, I didn't build around Battle Synergy, and I didn't
install possible Defense runes.

Here's the same version, but with Arcane Wall and Defense runes.

Cunning:
1133 vs normal (76%)
618 vs lieutenant (56%)
425 vs boss (36%)

Constitution:
705 vs normal (43%)
522 vs lieutenant (23%)
423 vs boss (5%; default)

The
higher your Defense is, the more benefit you'll gain from each flat %
increase. Going from 90% to 80% is better than going from 100% to 90%.
The problem is that you have to constantly be putting more into Defense
to keep it up, as well as the reserved Stamina/Mana from the extra
abilities.

Defense caps at 80%, but that's done after all
calculations including rank modifier. Having a Defense that is
effectively 110% would mean that you have 80% vs normals, 80% vs
lieutenants, and 70% vs bosses.

How come Arcane wall/defense runes give 29% to Cunning version (47->76) but 20% to Constitution version (23->43)?

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Sabre: You're forgetting that without a Defense % (before buffs) above 5%, parts of those defense buffs is not being given. (Calc.Def% +Def%Bonus) or 5%, whichever is greater.

For that example. 14 Cunning has 5% vs Boss (due to it being greater than 12-30= -18%). Plus the 38% from buffs (with the numbers posted earlier, not necessarily what they'd actually give), that would be 20% defense versus bosses. 11 Cunning, full Con? They would get less Defense vs boss (5%+38%-30%= 13%vs boss). Using the same formula for EfH, I did 20%Def, 195 health; 13% Def, 210 health. Comes out to ~241 EfH for pure Con, ~243 for 14 Cun.

Peter's numbers seem to point in that direction. The more +Defense Buffs you can get into the mix, the better a Cunning build would do vs. Constitution with same buffs.