210 réponses à ce sujet

[Peter Thomas]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Peter, earlier you had stated that abilities and sustains that give you +10% defense (like turn the blade) give it to you across all categories. (meaning norma, leuitenant, and boss). That means with turn the blade you would have 15% normal, 15% leuitenant, 15% boss. Was the information you gave earlier inaccurate? Or did you calculate effective health without respect to the auras.

I posted that about 2 hours in this thread saying that I had given incorrect information and gave the actual formula.

[Peter Thomas]

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Is constitution not a flat +5 increase? If it is, I'm struggling with how you got to 402 HP.

Equipment.

[Sabresandiego]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

@Sabre: You're forgetting that without a Defense % (before buffs) above 5%, parts of those defense buffs is not being given. (Calc.Def% +Def%Bonus) or 5%, whichever is greater.

For that example. 14 Cunning has 5% vs Boss (due to it being greater than 12-30= -18%). Plus the 38% from buffs (with the numbers posted earlier, not necessarily what they'd actually give), that would be 20% defense versus bosses. 11 Cunning, full Con? They would get less Defense vs boss (5%+38%-30%= 13%vs boss). Using the same formula for EfH, I did 20%Def, 195 health; 13% Def, 210 health. Comes out to ~241 EfH for pure Con, ~243 for 14 Cun.

Peter's numbers seem to point in that direction. The more +Defense Buffs you can get into the mix, the better a Cunning build would do vs. Constitution with same buffs.

When you say 14 cunning, are you referring to 3 points invested into cunning, or 14 invested.

Edit: I just noticed Peters new formula for ranked creatures.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[Peter Thomas]

0rz0 wrote...

How come Arcane wall/defense runes give 29% to Cunning version (47->76) but 20% to Constitution version (23->43)?

Arcane Wall adds a flat percentage. Defense runes add to the non-percentage Defense stat, which is not linear.

[manneger]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Peter Thomas wrote...

Here are some numbers from a lategame Aveline.

285 Health
25% Defense (cunning and equipment)
+15% Turn the Blade
+7.5% Heroic Aura

Effective Health:
537 vs normal (47%)
390 vs lieutenant (27%)
306 vs boss (7%)


If she had all her points put into Constitution instead of Cunning. (402 Health)
522 vs normal (23%)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)
423 vs lieutenant (5%; default)


This build was slightly better against normal enemies (Critter/Normal) who are the vast majority of enemies, and weaker against lieutenants and bosses. This was also not a build built optimally for Defense. I didn't have Arcane Wall, I didn't build around Battle Synergy, and I didn't install possible Defense runes.

Here's the same version, but with Arcane Wall and Defense runes.

Cunning:
1133 vs normal (76%)
618 vs lieutenant (56%)
425 vs boss (36%)

Constitution:
705 vs normal (43%)
522 vs lieutenant (23%)
423 vs boss (5%; default)

The higher your Defense is, the more benefit you'll gain from each flat % increase. Going from 90% to 80% is better than going from 100% to 90%. The problem is that you have to constantly be putting more into Defense to keep it up, as well as the reserved Stamina/Mana from the extra abilities.

Defense caps at 80%, but that's done after all calculations including rank modifier. Having a Defense that is effectively 110% would mean that you have 80% vs normals, 80% vs lieutenants, and 70% vs bosses.

Peter, earlier you had stated that abilities and sustains that give you +10% defense (like turn the blade) give it to you across all categories. (meaning norma, leuitenant, and boss). That means with turn the blade you would have 15% normal, 15% leuitenant, 15% boss since 5% normal, 5% leiutenant, 5% boss is default. Was the information you gave earlier inaccurate? Or did you calculate effective health without respect to the auras.

He posted a little while ago that you add all bonuses and THEN subtract the lieutenant/boss figure to reach a total, that is then rounded up to 5% if it goes below that.

[Sabresandiego]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Peter, earlier you had stated that abilities and sustains that give you +10% defense (like turn the blade) give it to you across all categories. (meaning norma, leuitenant, and boss). That means with turn the blade you would have 15% normal, 15% leuitenant, 15% boss. Was the information you gave earlier inaccurate? Or did you calculate effective health without respect to the auras.

I posted that about 2 hours in this thread saying that I had given incorrect information and gave the actual formula.

I didnt see that post. You lied to me Peter and mislead me, how could you! Haha just kidding, looks like cunning may have some value after all. Gonna have to redo all the math now with the new formula.

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Sabre: 14 total, investing 3 into Cunning. I'm figuring 21 Strength (8 invested) for gear, leaving 10 to play with, so using a spreadsheet I just add to Cunning, reducing Constitution. With the 38% defense buffs someone mentioned before my post, the numbers I posted are what's in that row.

Cunning build gets slightly better boss numbers ONLY (really, only) if there's a good stack of defense buffs. Without any defense buffs, Cunning is as you say, good against normals, worthless against bosses.

Since gear requires CON and not CUN, I'd follow suit with the 'primarily CON build,' dabbling in cunning as you get spare points.

[Sabresandiego]

From the math, it looks like ignoring constitution completely and going all cunning is very strong if you go for every single defense buff available. The reason for this is that each point of defense is worth more, the more you get.

50% defense = 2x effective health
66% = 3x
75% = 4x
80% = 5x

As you can see here, the value of 1% defense (between 75% and 80%) is worth roughly 10 times the value of 1% defense (between 0% and 50%). That means the higher you bump cunning, the more valuable each point in cunning becomes, and all of your defense auras and abilities become.

This leads me to conclude that if you want to be an avoidance tank who gets the most out of turn the blade, battle synergy, heroic aura, and arcane wall you need to invest heavy into cunning with just enough into constitution to wear equipment. Equipment stat requirements may make a pure cunning tank better off wearing poor armor to maximize defense and ignoring constitution altogether.

My conclusion is the following:

Versatile Tank: Mix of Str, Cun, and Con. Good throughout the game but not ideal vs bosses
Min/Max Avoidance Tank: Heavy Cunning for becoming nearly invulnerable to normals and leiutenants
Versatile Boss Tank: Heavy Constitution with no cunning

A few notes:

1. The avoidance tank relies heavily upon sustains and auras to reach insane levels of survivability against normal monsters which a constitution tank just cannot match. However, being an avoidance tank requires consistant investment into cunning every level, and the constant use of sustains which take away from stamina available for abilities.

2. The constitution tank can diversify stats much more without losing effectiveness. The constitution tank is significantly less effective against normal enemies, which is the majority of the game, however is equally effective against bosses and can diversify stats more allowing for higher damage output. The consitution tank can also forego the use of stamina hog sustains against bosses, giving him more stamina for active abilities.

-In my opinion, its clear that the strongest tank in the game is an avoidance tank who is dedicated to invest 2 points in cunning per level and also maximizing defense with turn the blade, battle synergy, arcane wall, and heroic aura. However this build requires dedication to cunning leaving little points for strength, constitution, and willpower.

-A versatile tank is good for most of the game, but is not min maxed and weaker against bosses then a pure constitution tank or pure cunning tank. Might be the best tank overall since normal enemies are the majority of the game.

-A pure constitution tank is good against bosses without having to invest so heavily like an avoidance tank, leaving more stamina for abilities and is not tied into having to invest points per level in order to maintain health, leaving more attribute points available to invest into strength, willpower, etc.

So it comes down to player preference. 

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 10:02 .

[mokponobi]

^^

Not sure about the avoidance tank, you would still need to invest enough into STR and CON to wear the best armor and wield the best swords...It may be the best at end game but from lvl 1 to then it may just die all the time cause the hello reload screen.

Modifié par mokponobi, 03 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[Sabresandiego]

mokponobi wrote...

^^

Not sure about the avoidance tank, you would still need to invest enough into STR and CON to wear the best armor and wield the best swords...It may be the best at end game but from lvl 1 to then it may just die all the time cause the hello reload screen.

I am personally not putting anything into cunning and going for constitution instead. Even though a min/max cunning tank is probably the best overall tank, I personally dont like using sustains and like having all of my stamina free for active abilities. 

[Siven80]

In my opinions all these maths forget about armor% reduction and damage resistance %.

Im leaning towards more Con than Cunning, but still a good amount of Cunning as avoidance is good. With armor and damage resistance, you will be taking significantly less dmg from normal mobs.

[Sabresandiego]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

I am personally not putting anything into cunning and going for constitution instead. Even though a min/max cunning tank is probably the best overall tank, I personally dont like using sustains and like having all of my stamina free for active abilities.

That's because you're the 2H tank/Vanguard.

If you're building Aveline as a tank, what would you do? I say give her tons of sustainables and leave Taunt as the only active, so you can completely leave her alone and micro the other squad members. I'm hesitating between a versatile hybrid tank and a cunning tank.

I won't give aveline any cunning either. My reasons being that her bodyguard ability is a damage transfer, and I dont think cunning helps that meanwhile constitution does, because she has a larger healthpool to transfer damage to. Second, because Im playing on nightmare, I would hope that added con may prevent her from being 1 shotted by me (although it probably wont help in that regard). Finally, I wont be using her in my party, since my 2 handed warrior will be the tank. A str/con tank with no cunning. I plan to kite alot rather then stand in place and take damage.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Siven80: The damage reduced by armor and damage resistance would be the same %/proportion no matter cunning or constitution, if cun/con were the only differences in the build. Yes, more damage would be reduced due to armor/resistance in the con build, but it still would be the same % change to the effective health of each build.

@iOnlySignIn: I know the feeling, currently trying out various amounts of defense buffs to see if there'd be a happy medium between no sustains/no defense and ninja defense/no stamina. Not having any luck lol.

@m14567: At least for me, the math stuff is fun to fiddle with while waiting, and it helps to have a better idea about the mechanics so I won't be going into nightmare (not going to change that for first play) blind. My build plan hasn't changed yet, but mainly because I was clueless on how I wanted to stat attributes anyway. Hopeful for an avoidance tank, but not at the cost of dps/stamina (defeats the purpose of a TH tank!).

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 03 mars 2011 - 10:12 .

[Sabresandiego]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

I wouldnt give aveline any cunning either. My reasons being that her bodyguard ability is a damage transfer, and I dont think cunning helps that meanwhile con does, because she has a larger healthpool to transfer damage to. Second, because Im playing on nightmare, I would hope that added con may prevent her from being 1 shotted by me (although it probably wont help in that regard).

Actually I don't think the damage transfer ability requires any Con investment in Aveline, because Hawke will still take the majority of the damage (75%) when only 25% is transferred to Aveline. So unless Hawke has significantly higher health than Aveline, Hawke will die just as fast and long before Aveline is close to dying from the damage transfer.

Especially the way I build Hawke, with lots of Cunning, the damage transfer will happen very rarely.

The primary reason to put lots of Con/Str to Aveline is simply to let her equip gear. The requirements are pretty high for the top-tier shields and 1-H swords (up to 32 Con for shields, and 42 Str for 1-H swords). That means at least 1 Con 1 Str per level to Aveline, no matter what else you do, just so that you can enjoy most of the content.

It might not be the optimal way to play combat-wise, but it's much better from a RP perspective. I'd hate it if Aveline complains to a weapons dealer: "No, I cannot use that because Hawke makes me do ninja training with her every day, instead of lifting weights. I love lifting weights damn it!"

bodyguard is 25% damage transfer
elite bodguard is another 25%
her friendly passive is 5%
heroic synergy is 25%

She can absorb up to 80% of the damage which Hawke takes. If I pump her with nothing but constitution it makes these abilities more useful whereas cunning doesnt do anything for them.

[Sabresandiego]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

@Siven80: The damage reduced by armor and damage resistance would be the same %/proportion no matter cunning or constitution, if cun/con were the only differences in the build. Yes, more damage would be reduced due to armor/resistance in the con build, but it still would be the same % change to the effective health of each build.

@iOnlySignIn: I know the feeling, currently trying out various amounts of defense buffs to see if there'd be a happy medium between no sustains/no defense and ninja defense/no stamina. Not having any luck lol.

@m14567: At least for me, the math stuff is fun to fiddle with while waiting, and it helps to have a better idea about the mechanics so I won't be going into nightmare (not going to change that for first play) blind. My build plan hasn't changed yet, but mainly because I was clueless on how I wanted to stat attributes anyway. Hopeful for an avoidance tank, but not at the cost of dps/stamina (defeats the purpose of a TH tank!).

Let me know what you figure out.

[JSLfromBx]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

@Siven80: The damage reduced by armor and damage resistance would be the same %/proportion no matter cunning or constitution, if cun/con were the only differences in the build. Yes, more damage would be reduced due to armor/resistance in the con build, but it still would be the same % change to the effective health of each build.

@iOnlySignIn: I know the feeling, currently trying out various amounts of defense buffs to see if there'd be a happy medium between no sustains/no defense and ninja defense/no stamina. Not having any luck lol.

@m14567: At least for me, the math stuff is fun to fiddle with while waiting, and it helps to have a better idea about the mechanics so I won't be going into nightmare (not going to change that for first play) blind. My build plan hasn't changed yet, but mainly because I was clueless on how I wanted to stat attributes anyway. Hopeful for an avoidance tank, but not at the cost of dps/stamina (defeats the purpose of a TH tank!).

I am sorry to be rude but that's a load of bullcrap! damage reduced by armor is the same the SAME?????

A con warrior walking around the best armor in the game with 70% damage reduction versus physical damage is the same as cuning warrior with 2% physical damage reduction because he can't wear anything but the noobs chainmail he got at the start of the game?

Massive armor  require  heavy str and con. A rogue armor require heavy dex and cun.  A full cuning warior you can wear neither

edit:spelling

Modifié par JSLfromBx, 03 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[Adhin]

Well you need about 32 str/con right? 13 base str, 12 base con, thats +19/20 into each to equip the best armor, weapon is almost an afterthought for a tank. Think that's why putting at lvl 20 that leaves you with 18 to put into Cunning, not a lot actually. To go that level of cunning you'd have to sacrifice your armor and, if that's 'really' what your doing, might as well just go all out and just max cunning like a mad-man. Probably go with 20-30 str, ignore Con, I think Medium armor only requires str.

But definitely wont be in the best heavy armor, not if its 32/32 str/con requirement anyways. Which means a weaker shield, and weaker armor for Defense.

[Sabresandiego]

Technically, if you want to be a cunning tank you might as well play a rogue. Then you can use all the weapons/armor/gear and only have 30 less hitpoints then a warrior. Not only that, but cunning is awesome for traps, crit damage, etc. Dual wield rogue has many abilities which auto crit, making cunning a great stat.

Rogue ninja tank anyone?

[October Sixth]

Adhin wrote...

Well you need about 32 str/con right?

42 Str, but as you said not having the VERY best weapon isn't going to break a tank

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[October Sixth]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Rogue ninja tank anyone?

I think the biggest problem with that is the inability to taunt. Maybe for a second/third playthrough...