210 réponses à ce sujet

[Zhel_Ryn]

I'm not thinking that far below on CON, but that is true, extremes to either end would affect what gear you can wear, whether you can make up some of that difference with con-stat jewelry/etc. or not.

As for the happy medium, best I can come up with is 16 CUN (1/level) with one warrior sustain (BS or TtB), and both Mage sustains (HA and AW).

21 Strength, 10 points to distribute
Cun..Con...vNm...EfHvN...vBs...EfHvB
11....22.....18%...254.....5%...221
16....17.....48%...352....18%...224
21....12.....78%...711....48%...304

Notes
11Cun/22Con: No self-defense sustains for above, giving free reign for regen cap/dps sustains; 1 self-defense sustain vs. normal=311EfH; boss EfH stays same no matter sustains.
16Cun/17Con: 1 self-defense sustain active; frees one sustain for dps (bravery), magic resist (aegis), spec sustains, or regen cap.
21Cun/12Con: Both self-defense sustains active. Armor stat reqs. likely not met.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 03 mars 2011 - 11:15 .

[JSLfromBx]

the problem is not the str requirement on weapon it's the armor requirement, with 2 point/level in cuning you can get 23 str/con by end game, you might as well be runing around naked

a word on rogue it's an idea, maybe workable for a normal playthrough but there is some problem:
first, you do have an aoe taunt but you can only redirect threath on someone else. However if you do you have two rogue, let say Isabella, well then Isabelle can transfert mobs threat onto your ninja tank.

second, a rogue tank won't have acess to shield wall and lacking a 50% damage reduction is not nice. It's also a HUGE issue for cun tank, how can someone be runing Battle synergy, turn the Blade, Shield Wall and still have some stamina left

[Adhin]

Yeah my current line of thinking is +2 str, +1 con to lvl 15, then at 16 swap that so I have 42 str at 16. Afterwhich its 3 points in Con. Its 375 hp base (not counting equipment) at lvl 25. Though I'd love to find out if theres some kinda good, medium 2H sword I can just rune up with con based stuff and keep str requirement around 32, if I can that'd be even better but I doubt I'll need to do that. I'll probably have around 500 hp with equipment either way with that current progression, 60-80% Armor rating should really let that HP work its self out slowly.

[upsettingshorts]

...no Cunning? Sorry, I haven't been following the thread.

[JSLfromBx]

Actually Aveline is my biggest balance issue with the game because she looks like quite the cheater. If she get some armor rating everylevel "for free" because she's a companion and can't equip proper armor , then there will be some issues.
If that's the case then Why would anyone ever use a tanking Hawke? Yu could give Aveline 3point/level of cunning and she would still enjoy the same armore damage reductionas as an Hawke tank who put all her point into con and str. I have a bad feeling about this, a really bad one.

[Sabresandiego]

JSLfromBx wrote...

Actually Aveline is my biggest balance issue with the game because she looks like quite the cheater. If she get some armor rating everylevel "for free" because she's a companion and can't equip proper armor , then there will be some issues.
If that's the case then Why would anyone ever use a tanking Hawke? Yu could give Aveline 3point/level of cunning and she would still enjoy the same armore damage reductionas as an Hawke tank who put all her point into con and str. I have a bad feeling about this, a really bad one.

she still has to meet requirements for shields, although technically you could outfit her with an awful weapon and awful shield and just pump 3 into cunning every level. She could probably end up hitting 80% vs normal and leuitenants and 50% defense vs bosses that way, making her quite the juggernaut.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 11:18 .

[Adhin]

Kinda depends on what your goal is Mr.Shorts. But you basically need about 32 str/con just to equip high end heavy armor end game to begin with so, that doesn't leave much for cunning. And that doesn't count for 42 str just to equip a good end game weapon. Which ultimately eats away at more of it. But that said for tanking, probably not as big of a concern so.. going low 30 in each seems viable by 20.

Then just focus all your item runes into Defense boosts. And then maxed Turn the Blade (upgraded to 15%), all Mage +party Defense stuff to get the total to 28% which will nullify all buy 2% of a bosses -30% vs your Defense rating letting you go at them with whatever your base is before buffs.

It's viable, but kinda bleh to me. I originally planned to focus on Str/Con for RP reasons and, now I just got more mechanical reasons to only focus on str/con.

[Adhin]

Yeah make her a Juggernaut who hits like a de-clawed kitten. I know taunt will transfer threat but that'll only last for so long you know? Have to use Battle Synergy and keep everyone basically hugging her the whole time. Which would work...still I'd try to avoid that.

[Trefecka]

Thing is, if you're trying to max out defense with all the possible + defense sustains, then you will want your party to be hugging the tank anyways for the +defense from battle synergy. Then you could use Aveline solely as a tank and rely on your on Hawke+2 others for damage/threat

Modifié par Trefecka, 03 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[JSLfromBx]

Ok so you guys miss the point completly.

Hawke have to chose

either you go heavy str and con for armor and mitigation.
Or you go heavy in cuning for max avoidance

you either  (simplified for comprehension sakes) 80% mitigation with 0% avoidance OR you can get 0% mitigation with 80% avoidance. It's a choice you have to make, but you can't get both.

Aveline is a companion and that mean she can never equip armor and since she's supposed to a tank it is very VERY likely that Bioware made it so she simply get an increase in her armor rating everytime she level up for free.
It mean that by the time she is level 20 she will have the same damage reduction from armor as a Hawke character using the best armor in game and she doesn't have to use a single attribute point for it.

If you use those attritude point on cunnings then you will get a tank with 80%mitigation AND 80% avoidance, thus completly breaking the game and making sword and shield hawke completly useless.

[AgenTBC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Yes peter said he went 1 str, 1 cun, and 1con but he never said it was a good build. The stats clearly tell us that it is a bad build.

This scares me quite a bit.  Because Nightmare difficulty is supposed to require you to play all the characters optimally.  But it has been stated that the way they determined how hard Nightmare should be was "Can Peter Thomas beat it?".  If Peter was using a really crappy build without even knowing it, that tells us that Nightmare is not going to be hard enough if we use good builds.  I hope I'm misinterpreting.

[-Skorpious-]

Do you think I could build a tank for nightmare and still have plenty of room for the Templar spec? I've been scratching my head for days trying trying to figure out how to allocate my points, but alas, it always ends with me investing 17+ talents in Hawke's primary chains (thus leaving no room for growth in the Templar chain).

Can anyone help recommend a viable tanking build for nightmare (lets assume 20 points will be the max) that is both effective and leaves about 5 points to spare for specializations?

[Sabresandiego]

40 hours is long enough for a game. If you only play 1 hour per year, it will take you 40 years to finish the game. Thats long enough.

[Sabresandiego]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Do you think I could build a tank for nightmare and still have plenty of room for the Templar spec? I've been scratching my head for days trying trying to figure out how to allocate my points, but alas, it always ends with me investing 17+ talents in Hawke's primary chains (thus leaving no room for growth in the Templar chain).

Can anyone help recommend a viable tanking build for nightmare (lets assume 20 points will be the max) that is both effective and leaves about 5 points to spare for specializations?

You will have to make sacrifices. I dont think there are enough ability points to get everything you want.

[Graunt]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

If anybody has seen the unique warrior weapons guide from http://social.biowar...1/index/6324829, looks like the strength/con requirements are quite high for the best gear in the game. Without revealing any spoilers, 32 con and str is the minimum for what appears to be the best shield in the game and 42 str is the minimum for the best 1H weapon in the game.

This isn't really that off from Origins Massive is it?  Well, I suppose you only needed STR for that, but that's no big deal.  It just means that STR/CON should theoretically be the way to go for a generalist type of tank now that the "new DEX" has shown to be pretty much worthless for anyone other than Rogues...which is what I had already claimed before this thread.

40 hours is long enough for a game. If you only play 1 hour per year, it
will take you 40 years to finish the game. Thats long enough.

While I agree that 40 hours is plenty long (even though Origins hit just 38 hours for my first playthrough), your comparison doesn't make any sense. No one is going to play one hour a year, and you may as well be saying "one hour is long enough" if you were to only play a minute every ten years.

Modifié par Graunt, 04 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[KallDay]

Sabresandiego wrote...

40 hours is long enough for a game. If you only play 1 hour per year, it will take you 40 years to finish the game. Thats long enough.

I like how you think. That math-e-matical wizardry is paying off for you in all sorts of ways.

[JustS]

Amazing information as always everyone And thank you Peter for your input and statistics. They do help us outside the demo for sure.

Lots of things have been made clear in this post and has allowed me to avoid some potential mess-ups.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I think magic damage is so high that putting points into Magic is a waste, as much of an oxymoron as that sounds. 

Health has always been the tank stat. It's the only thing that will constantly deal with incoming damage, 100% of the time. 

I haven't looked at the skills, as I don't want to spoil myself before getting to play the game myself, but in Origins I always made my tank a 2-her, as the anti-stun was invaluble. If there is no such skill in the game again, I imagine Str will be my second priority over health. 

Cunning is likely pointless, as I don't make a tank to deal damage.

Dex...it depends. If it affects your melee hit chance like in Origins, you're going to have to put points in this. Not being able to hit anything makes you useless. If they simplified things so Str does it for warriors instead, then it can be ignored.

Willpower was sort of my guilty pleasure/hate in Origins because with no real way of regaining stamina outside of some food, your starting stamina pool could sometimes be very important. That said, stamina (and mana) seem to regenerate very, very, very, very fast in DA:2. And there are stamina/mana pots in case that regeneration isn't fast enough for you as it is. I don't see Willpower being important at all this time around unless they specifically made skills/spells use more stamina/mana than the default Wisdom can handle.

So, I will likely always put a point into str and con. That third point will alternate between Dex and Str/Con depending on whether or not I find the need for more hp or more stun resistance to be more important.

[ShadowBurdus]

Perhaps I am mistaken and it is stated somewhere that this is no longer possible, but can't you use the stats on gear to equip better gear like in DAO?

For example you didn't need 42 strength to equip Corruption. Helm of Honnaleth (sp?) gave you +2, Key to the city gave you +2 and depending on what rings you had available there was another +2 or +4.

So in reality you really only needed 36-38 strength. Assuming you are able to do this in DA2 this alliviates some of the strength requirements for top end gear.

[hekalite]

 I am so confused.  There are so many reasonable sounding (and yet conflicting theories) in this thread I can't decide what to try first.  I don't think I have enough information yet to decide.  For instance, how many books (or similar) oportunities will we have to boost stats?  Can you find gear which would help you boost STR and/or CON to meet an armor requirement.  

My instincts tell me that not getting hit at all is the best way to tank, but some of the numbers posited in this thread suggest otherwise.  The way I see it though, the amount of hit points you get per point of CON still equate to a limited resource.  And every point of damage you take brings you closer to having to use another resource (i.e. heal spell or potion) if the combat continues long enough.  With a high avoidance percentage it's the gift that keeps on giving.  So on average if the combat ends before your high CON tank has to heal then that would likely be more cost effective, but if combat stretches on for a long time then you are just shuffling the cost somewhere else.  But then again, if you are taking tons of damage from other sources like magic you may be screwed either way.

hmm...decisions decisions...

[Jacobuskatt]

@hekalite To summarize what I'm seeing as the temporary conclusions of this thread (thanks to some mathematically gifted individuals), there are essentially 2 builds that seem like they offer the best experience for a tank.

1. A standard strength/constitution tank. They rely on having enough health to withstand a beating and enough strength to maintain a high to-hit %. Another benefit of this build is that it is flexible in that you can invest as much in constitution as you want, but you can throw in other things like willpower if you feel you need more mana. Another thing that makes this a reliable build is you are almost guaranteed to be wearing the best armor as soon as possible because all of the armors have high strength and constitution requirements.

2. A strength/cunning build. The idea behind this build is to use a high cunning score to keep your avoidance high. This will also require you to take all of the high defense skills as well (ie Turn the Blade). As I understand it, the way defense via cunning works is on a bell curve, so that you can't just invest a few in cunning and hope to benefit. You must continue to invest about 1.5 cunning per level for it to continue to be a good payoff. From the math i've seen, this build does offer a slight edge in fighting the majority of enemies (the normal ones), whereas the constitution tank slightly favors boss fights. Late game, this tank could avoid almost all damage from normal enemies. [There recently has been some discusion about cunning taking on a flat % increase for defense, so figuring out how exactly the cunning will work will be important.]
A few drawbacks are that you must always put lots of points into cunning, thus, low flexibility. Also, you can always get unlucky and take a few big hits and go down, whereas a constitution tank is going to offer fairly reliable protection. Furthermore, it will be almost impossible to get into late game gear with a cunning tank. (although, it may be possible for Aveline to get her gear upgraded without requirements for constitution, which could really help her work as a cunning tank).

Personally I'm pretty positive that I'll go for a constitution tank because it will be reliable, only slightly less good against normal enemies, and I know i'll be able to wear good gear with ease, and still have room to take enough mana to use a few good abilities. Maintaining aggro is so big for a tank, because if you can't keep aggro, you're just a big dude lumbering around the battlefield without helping.

Modifié par Jacobuskatt, 04 mars 2011 - 08:14 .

[colejossart]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

DA2 is a much different game stat wise then DA:O. You no longer gain stamina or HP at level up. Also, healing is a lot harder to do.

Defense is going to be a lot more important in this game. So your going to want to increase cunning for your tanks to up your defense. The less hits you take, the longer you can tank. You want a defense above 50% at all times. A good distribution for a tank might be 1 str, 1cun, 1 con. Make use of a sustainable (or use a teammate with a party buff) that boosts your defense and you should be good.

You are totally contradicting yourself. Have you even looked at the stat tables in the attribute thread? You cant expect to maintain 50% defense by investing in 1 cunning per level. Heck you wont even have 30% vs bosses if you invest 2 cunning per level. Constituion is flat out better for a main tank. Tanks should invest 0 in cunning.

Its what the dev has said he used on his tank on nightmare so I assume it can work quite well. There are other ways to boost defense. Equipment + party buffs, maybe one of the warrior sustanables that buff defense. These should boost you up to 50% dodge vs mobs. I'm worried purely about normal grunt mobs.

Vs a boss a tank should focus on increasing damage reduction. Mage spells like Barrier, and the various warrior abilites that increase damage resistance should be used. This is where a S&S warrior will really shine since shield defenses +25% damage reduction is HUGE.

50% dodge would only apply to the normal enemies (i.e. fodder). That defense rating becomes much smaller when you face LTs and bosses. You want mitigation and you can achieve it best by dumping points into Con.

I'm still fairly certain the most optimal build for tanks on Nightmare will be alternating 1str/2con and 2str/1con per each level. I would most likely stop putting points into strength once it was high enough and put the rest into Willpower instead. Theres quite a few sustainables that are worth using that consumes quite a bit of stamina (Turn the Blade, Bravery, etc).

^^^^  This.  Strength and Con until I have a high enough strength to use massive armor and then investing in Willpower.  My tank is probably not going to do a lot besides taunt and the occaisonal shield bash early in the game due to Bravery, Shield Defense, and Elemental Aegis. (Which will eat up 60% of my stamina).