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[dirftglass]

Russalka wrote...

EDIT: Dirftglass, check my previous post as well.

No, that's fair.

I will give you that probabilistic argument as to the Hawke's family outlook. If you take someone from their world, and someone from a first world country in our's, they have a much higher chance of actually "meaning it".

I would still say that the game doesn't do anything (at least so far as the demo is concerned), to - to use an ironic paraphrase - "put it in stone" either way.

Modifié par dirftglass, 03 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[Russalka]

Like I said in my previous posts, it does not make sense in a world of medieval influences for people to be "modern atheists" or only invoke the Maker because it has become such common use. "The Maker has a sense of humour" is hardly the "OMGs" of the real world.

There is no substantial proof on either side of the spectrum that the other side is wrong. There could be a Maker, Gods, and the Chantry might be right, but there is a possibility of the opposite.

I believe that there are very few non-religious people in Thedas. Playing Hawke to be anti-religous because of real world influences or some general knowledge of how wrong the Chantry is, seems like metagaming to me. But it is anyone's free choice.

Modifié par Russalka, 03 mars 2011 - 01:49 .

[Irkalla]

In a world that people can shot lighting out of their fingertips and kill dragons everything is possible. My mage Hawkette will be pissed at the Maker for the injustice towards mages. He obviously created mages to ****** people off and gloat in the spectacle that follows. There should be a quest where you can go confront the Maker about this.

[Seladen]

Why do people seem to think that since you play a Mage its better to role play as a non-believer in the Maker.

SPOILERS



Bethany is a Mage and right before she dies in the Beta she ask the Maker to give her strength.




END SPOILERS



So its very possible for a Mage in the Hawke family to believe in the Maker.

Modifié par Seladen, 03 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[dirftglass]

Insom wrote...

They tried tons of regular magic on arl eamon and nothing. Why is it that only the ashes can cure someone from a coma?

Because obviously the ashes are more powerful than any of the other magic they had at their disposal.

"Andraste's ashes have better magic than your gang of wanderers" still provides no evidence to support what the Chantry has been saying though, other than their claims that Andraste's ashes are powerful.

It's like I came up to you, and I claim I created the moon, and I could travel in time, and I actually have 6 invisible heads, and I know what's in your pocket without looking.

If I then PROVE that I know what's in your pocket without looking, I did not just prove that I have 6 invisible heads.

One impressive trait does not make all my statements automatically true with impugnity - that's a logical fallacy.

Modifié par dirftglass, 03 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[dirftglass]

In fact, that's a common fallacy that con artists make use of, at the expense of the poor people they dupe.

Modifié par dirftglass, 03 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[Katreyn]

Because I like the way the story of the Maker and Andraste is laid out I try to at least be respectable of it. Even in Origins when I was playing a mage/elf/dwarf or a "bad" person. If there is any indication whatsoever that the Maker is in fact "real" then I don't want to be smited for being a total douche in the name of the maker.

Though because I am tolerable of the Chantry's religion, doesn't mean I like the way they run things...

[DJBare]

My characters have never believed in makers, but they have no problem lying in order to gain favor "Praise be the maker!!"

Here's what I would like to see "Your faith is not required only your help"

Modifié par DJBare, 03 mars 2011 - 01:54 .

[agaudio23]

My Hawke will believe that the people have misinterpreted the magical energy of the world as divine providence, and that the maker is actually magical energy in the universe that presents itself in different ways. Mages, Lyrium, elementals, and the like. Though I know this won't be a possible game choice its what I want to believe. So my Hawke will believe in the maker as he or she shes it. Not as a entity as the chantry does, but as a force that is neither good or evil, creative or destructive, on its own. Those who channel this power decide how it is used. More physics than God.

[Insom]

dirftglass wrote...

Insom wrote...

They tried tons of regular magic on arl eamon and nothing. Why is it that only the ashes can cure someone from a coma?

Because obviously the ashes are more powerful than any of the other magic they had at their disposal.

"Andraste's ashes have better magic than your gang of wanderers" still provides no evidence to support what the Chantry has been saying though, other than their claims that Andraste's ashes are powerful.

It's like I came up to you, and I claim I created the moon, and I could travel in time, and I actually have 6 invisible heads, and I know what's in your pocket without looking.

If I then PROVE that I know what's in your pocket without looking, I did not just prove that I have 6 invisible heads.

One impressive trait does not make all my statements automatically true with impugnity - that's a logical fallacy.

Andraste was just a regular human like everyone else. I don't believe there's anyone else with magical ashes. If she is not some divine figure then how do they explain that? The most powerful tevinter magister ashes do nothing to cure anyone, yet this woman who supposedly talked to the maker and is worshipped by people does.

[Russalka]

Some pot of ashes standing around in a mountain full of lyrium can become a wonderdust after a few centuries, I imagine.

[Zabaniya]

My Hawke? He'll start off like any other Fereldan. Believes in the Maker, and an Andrastian to boot. Simply because I'm playing by pretending that I had never played Origins and that I do not know the inner workings of the Chantry already, except that they don't approve of Hawke's father and Bethany. Now, whether or not he holds onto those beliefs down the road is something we'll have to see. Because personally (no offense to anyone), most of the posts I see here say, "oh we've already seen what the Chantry is capable of; let's apply this knowledge, along with OUR personal biases in real life and metagame with it."

Modifié par Zabaniya, 03 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[PinkShoes]

maybe one or two, like one or two wont :3 all depends

[Lotion Soronarr]

dirftglass wrote...

Russalka wrote...
The
Hawke family still seems to be rather religious though. They did allow
Wesley to say that prayer and even Bethany talked about the Maker having
a sense of humour.

While the Hawke family certainly COULD be, trust me, talking about "The Maker" is no indication of level of belief in it.

Einstein didn't believe in "a God", even calling the idea foolish and getting in trouble with some members of the Jewish community, but he certainly did talk about about physics using that kind of language. "God doesn't play dice with the universe".

It's a position typically called Pantheism.

Stephen Hawking has also thrown around the term "God" alot. "If the standard model is correct, we may know the mind of God." Likewise, he too doesn't actually believe in "A God" - in fact there's a whole section of a book
he wrote in which he argues that the idea of a human-like thinking-entity "God" is now "unnecessary".

In our world "God" is such a powerful word, that we all tend to use it regardless of our level of belief, because we like to kind of steal alot of the linguistic associations the word has. I certainly don't believe that all of existence was created by a very complex and specific entity resembling myself somehow "existing outside of existence" (no offense intended towards those who do), but watch me stub my toe hard enough, and then take a guess at the kind of language I'll use immediately afterward.

Oh God.. Not this.
This is the part where you preach your atheism and how religion is stupid and illogical and blah, blah, blah...
Guess what? Do..not..care.

The topic is about Hawke you paly will belive in the Maker..NOT if you belive in God nad what you think of religion. Keep this thread clean pls.


And to be on topic. Hawke. Given that he's human and lives in a family of believers. Yes. After all..THE ORDER DICTATES!

[Russalka]

Zabaniya wrote...

My Hawke? He'll start off like any other Fereldan. Believes in the Maker, and an Andrastian to boot. Simply because I'm playing by pretending that I had never played Origins and that I do not know the inner workings of the Chantry already, except that they don't approve of Hawke's father and Bethany. Now, whether or not he holds onto those beliefs down the road is something we'll have to see. Because personally (no offense to anyone), most of the posts I see here say, "oh we've already seen what the Chantry is capable of; let's apply this knowledge and metagame with it."

Could not have said it better myself.

[MKDAWUSS]

I thought Hawke introduced people to their Maker.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, since the Chantry spreads the word of the Maker, and also is responsible for hunting apostates... I'm going to go ahead and say that my apostate Hawke thinks it's a load of crap. It's more reasonable to believe in his own power and the power of demons and spirits, both of which he would know exist from first hand experience (in the Fade). Pretty much the same conclusion my mage Wardens came to... why side with the folks who want you either dead, subservient, or tranquil?

[ruleonecardio]

I'm not sure, it's something my character flirted with in Origins. If magic didn't exist in the world, yet the maker and its chantry did, probably not. Yet the use of magic and the existence of the fade (to my character) means that the maker in some form exists (not necessarily as an omnipotent god). It's something I walk the line with in game. THE ORDER DICTATES INDEED!

[Sydelle]

My Hawke will believe in the Maker but be against the injustice the mages suffer by the Chantry

[Lotion Soronarr]

Russalka wrote...

Some pot of ashes standing around in a mountain full of lyrium can become a wonderdust after a few centuries, I imagine.

How come Lyrium doesn't impart insane magical properties on ashes of other people then?
Lyrium has been around for centuries....
If just placing things near lyrium gave things insane magical properties, someone would notice by now.
That explanation never really fit.

It's obvious there's something rather specia labout Andraste's ashes. An lyrium doesn't cover it. That doesn't prove the existance of the Maker tough.

[Stargatesam]

Lirea Dragonage wrote...

My Hawke will probably not care much about the Maker. Even if the Maker exists it's probably quite likely that the Chantry have twisted "his" writings to suit their own needs (eg. mages are evil) if he even spoke to Andraste at all ... In my opinion the Urn of Sacred Ashes is a pretty big indication that Andraste DID exist, but she may well have just been crazy or decided to stage a revolution using religion as a lever.
The whole "The Maker will forgive us and return if the chant is spread everywhere" is just another way of saying "it's not the Maker's fault it's because you're not praying hard enough!"
I hope the Chantry is less benign than they seemed to be in DA:O, I want to hate them! lol

Just a note the Chantry was created about 200 years AFTER Andraste was burnt alive.

Also it seems a lot of people (on these forums at least) don't seem to like a chantry very much, seeing it as a black-or-white "For us or Against Us" type of instuation (which is fine this is the internet and all) instead of the imperfect grey instuation it is.

The Chantry is corrupted, The Mages (As their history within Thedas has shown) are a danger to others has much as theirselves, and the Qunari will invade and make you submit to the Qun and their way of thinking or be destoried by it. All have Pro's and Con's. And No choices is better then the other in the end because as history, real world and in Thedas has shown Power corrupts the ones on the top will always fall and one tyranny replaces the other.
ranny

[LiquidGrape]

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

I hope not because I sure don't.

I'd hope so considering it's a videogame character.

Eh, since we're talking about fiction either way, it's basically the theological equivalent of Alien vs. Predator.



As for Hawke, if possible, mine won't.

[Itkovian]

Generally, yes.

Despite being a gnu atheist in RL, I find it hard to justify an atheistic character in a world where the supernatural and magic is undeniably real, especially when in a medieval setting (where even brilliant critical thinkers would tend to be theistic anyway).

So yes, I would say my Hawke will believe in Andraste and the Maker, though he will dissagree with Mages being denied their freedom (since he has apostates in his family). He will not be anti-chantry however, and will understand the purpose and usefulness of the Circle and the Templars... but he will not agree with Mages being essentially kept as prisoners (surely there is a way to have some oversight on Mages, to safeguard against abominations and blood magic, without having to lock them up in a tower all their lives).

Where he will fall in the mage/templar conflict will very much depend on what happens in the game. If the "rebel" mages turn out to be extremists who resort to any means necessary to secure their freedom, he may very well side with the Templars. Similarly, if the Templars start slaughtering innocents in their quest for control, he will oppose them.

It will all depend on how things work out.

Either way, he is an Andrastian, and would not wish to destroy the Chantry or anything of the sort (indeed, aside from a Mage character, I find it very unreaslistic to have a character who is not an Andrastian given Hawke's origin in a deeply Andrastian medieval country).

Thank you.

Itkovia

[wcholcombe]

Sense I am roleplaying and Hawke is raised by a very religious mother, then yes I will be religious. Just because players have their own opinion about chantry doesn't mean you get to ignore the world your character grew up in.

[Lilunebrium]

Victia wrote...
My Hawke will believe in the maker but not be a devout Andrastian, she will think that the chantry has distorted Andraste's teachings for their own ends

^