325 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

In general, one can believe in a god without believing that the "official" church of that god has the correct answers, or should hold any sort of power.

[Zalocx]

Apostate Hawke will believe in the maker, because he is a human from Ferelden and the VAST majority of them are Andrasteans. He does not like the Templars for obvious reasons but starting out has a favorable view of the Chantry writ large. Hell not liking organized religion does not magically make you not believe in a god. Anders, Jowan, and Bethany are all apostates who have a professed belief in the Maker and Andraste but are no friends of the Chantry.

[Satyricon331]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Russalka wrote...
Some pot of ashes standing around in a mountain full of lyrium can become a wonderdust after a few centuries, I imagine.

How come Lyrium doesn't impart insane magical properties on ashes of other people then?
Lyrium has been around for centuries....
If just placing things near lyrium gave things insane magical properties, someone would notice by now.
That explanation never really fit.

It's obvious there's something rather specia labout Andraste's ashes. An lyrium doesn't cover it. That doesn't prove the existance of the Maker tough.

I've wondered if the veil is thin there.  All those spirits there were probably summons rather than spirit-migrants who decided to take up shop, but summoning too many spirits can tear/weaken the veil, as (I think) happened with Avernus.  Also, we don't know whether Andraste was just a human mage; she might have become something more before she died.  Or, given how spirit healers draw on spirits to heal, and given how many spirits are bound to the site, perhaps someone bound her ashes to healing spirits in some way.  I don't think anything's conclusive on the matter.

[Russalka]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How come Lyrium doesn't impart insane magical properties on ashes of other people then?
Lyrium has been around for centuries....
If just placing things near lyrium gave things insane magical properties, someone would notice by now.
That explanation never really fit.

It's obvious there's something rather specia labout Andraste's ashes. An lyrium doesn't cover it. That doesn't prove the existance of the Maker tough.

They left it ambiguous so that everyone can interpret it as he or she pleases. Oghren's explanation did seem a bit too brief and random to explain anything, but it was enough to make the whole deal at least a bit implausible.

But it is not like we know everything about lyrium either.

[GunClubGirl]

A supreme being? Yes. Organized religion of any kind, including the Chantry? NO!

[The Archon]

I believed in the Maker in Dragon Age: Origins, but since that's a different character, I won't believe in the Maker as Hawke. However, I won't be siding with the Mages because my Hawke just likes to leave things as is.

[Flopsi]

Actually my mage Hawke will be the writer of The Maker Delusion.

[dirftglass]

Insom wrote...
Andraste was just a regular human like everyone else.

Unsubstantiated Claim.

Insom wrote...

I don't believe there's anyone else with magical ashes

Assertion without evidence.

Insom wrote...

If she is not some divine figure then how do they explain that? .

Ok, so where are we so far?

1) You make the assertion that she was an ordinary human, with nothing to back this up.

2) You make the assertion that "you think" that no-one else has magical ashes, something you cannot demonstrate, as I'm assuming you were not keeping tabs of the magical properties of everyone's ashes.

3) You that take Unsubstantied Claim #1, combine is with Baseless Assertion #2, and argue what we will call Claim #3 - that ONLY "Divine" entities can have magic ashes - again, something that I'm going to go ahead and assume you have no reasonable argument for, since we know of many other magic items.

4) You are then IMPLYING that with Unwarranted Claim #3, backed up by Unsubstatited Claim #1 and Baseless Assertion #2, we can then arrive at our end Inference, that everything the Chantry says is true.

Again, I made no claim that in the Dragon Age story she definitely wasn't - but if you really think that PROVES that she was, I would urge reconsideration of your standards of proof and logical process, as they seem to need some more rigour.

Insom wrote...

The most
powerful tevinter magister ashes do nothing to cure anyone, yet this
woman who supposedly talked to the maker and is worshipped by people
does.

"No black man has ever become president before, but this man who eats strawberries and who people say has magically strawberries did."

Therefore -> Barack Obama has Magic Strawberries.

There's a reason why these kinds of assertions do not work in a courtroom - they're not logically backed, they're emotionally backed and then look for happenstance to imply "their truth".

Modifié par dirftglass, 03 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Gebert]

My first Hawke will probably start believing in the Qun. Second will be an Atheist, and the third will believe in the Maker, though I'm not sure if he/her will align herself with the Chantry.

[dirftglass]

Re:Insom

Look, I can tell that you really want to believe this - and that's fine, you can. No one will judge you for that. Heck, I wasn't even arguing that you were definitely wrong.

However, if you make the claim that it is clearly true, then ... well, let's just say it makes you seem silly.

Modifié par dirftglass, 03 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Russalka wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How come Lyrium doesn't impart insane magical properties on ashes of other people then?
Lyrium has been around for centuries....
If just placing things near lyrium gave things insane magical properties, someone would notice by now.
That explanation never really fit.

It's obvious there's something rather specia labout Andraste's ashes. An lyrium doesn't cover it. That doesn't prove the existance of the Maker tough.

They left it ambiguous so that everyone can interpret it as he or she pleases. Oghren's explanation did seem a bit too brief and random to explain anything, but it was enough to make the whole deal at least a bit implausible.

But it is not like we know everything about lyrium either.

I don't think I'd go to Oghren for accurate explanations of complex phenomena.

[ColdbringeR]

My Hawke won't believe in the maker, but he'll act like he does.

[Emzamination]

I can't speak for others but my mage hawke wants nothing to do with the chantry or its damn templars.I would've turned ol wesley to ash had I been given the option dictating his chantry drivel to me...pffft <_<. 

[Weltea]

I find it way more realistic if Hawke does indeed belief in the Maker  -or some other omnient,powerful being - afterall the setting is a medieval world,who created it if not the Maker?I doubt they have any other possible explanations. And (since there seems to be historical proves that Andraste did excist) he also believes in her to some extend. Still,my Hawke won't be super religious,it's not a big deal for him,just something in the back of his mind...And he very much does not like the Chantry!

@dirftglass
I very much enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. Without wanting to insult anyone else,yours seem to be at the highest intellectual level here

[Drowsy0106]

If by a maker you mean Hawke's mom, i am pretty sure he doesn't believe hes adopted. If u mean some supreme intergalactic being that isn't more then one or doesn't fly super cool starships, then no.

[AkiKishi]

This is interesting.

While dense, opaque games like Ultima steered BioWare toward gentler entry points, games like Planescape: Torment guided writer David Gaider as he started drawing out the story and characters of Dragon Age II. Unlike Origins, whose protagonist is malleable blank slate, DAII features Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, complete with his own backstory and character arc.

Note backstory. What makes that different from an Origin story?

[dirftglass]

Weltea wrote...

@dirftglass
I very much enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. Without wanting to insult anyone else,yours seem to be at the highest intellectual level here

Flattery will get you everywhere.

[A Turkey Frog]

He will believe in the Maker and will acknowledge that it exists, and will also have good morals. With that said my mage Hawk will not be a religious fanatic, or support the chantry.

[SnakeHelah]

Nah, My Hawke gonna believe in elephants

[aluanira]

My Hawke won't believe in a Maker or Makers of any kind, not the first play-through at least. I'll probably try the belief angle for another play-through though.

[Generatio]

Much like my mage warden, my mage Hawk will believe in the Maker and despise the Chantry. I would love for my Hawk to go all Martin Luther on the chantry. :innocent:

[The Big Nothing]

My human noble was a firm believer in the Maker and the Chantry, as he was taught.
My mage Hawke will believe in the Maker, but on his own terms. A "The Chantry does not speak for the Maker" attitude.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 03 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Zeroed55]

My first character (Mage, Lawful) will believe in the Maker and be cordial towards the Chantry.

That does not mean he likes Templars, however.

[Itkovian]

Russalka wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How come Lyrium doesn't impart insane magical properties on ashes of other people then?
Lyrium has been around for centuries....
If just placing things near lyrium gave things insane magical properties, someone would notice by now.
That explanation never really fit.

It's obvious there's something rather specia labout Andraste's ashes. An lyrium doesn't cover it. That doesn't prove the existance of the Maker tough.

They left it ambiguous so that everyone can interpret it as he or she pleases. Oghren's explanation did seem a bit too brief and random to explain anything, but it was enough to make the whole deal at least a bit implausible.

But it is not like we know everything about lyrium either.

Let's face it, the fact is that Fade Spirits love to manifest our desires, certianly in the Fade (it's what dreams are), and perhaps in Lyrium rich places like the temple of the sacred ashes.

Ultimately, you could make a convincing case that all of Thedas' religions are born of visions and manifestations of Fade Spirits trying to assimilate some beliefs some people had, and these events served as catalysts that led to the birth of entire religions.

Let's face it, in the REAL WORLD we have religions that started from con artist, and people who mistake hallucinations as religous experiences and turn to a religious life because of it. Just imagine how strong the religious experiences must be when there actually ARE Spirits in the Fade who go around trying to make people's deeply held beliefs a reality.

All you'd need is a seed, like people believing that a great leader (Andraste for example) is a divine emmisary, and before long that very belief would prompt fade spirits to make it manifest (through dreams, or apparitions).

This is damning for anyone holding a religious view in Thedas, as in reality EVERYTHING is suspect. Any divine experience could just be a spirit doing its thing. I imagine that's something the Divines of the Chantry try not to contemplate too much.

BUT, the fact is that very few people actually understand this, and even learned and rather skeptical scholars such as Brother Genetivi still believe in the Maker and the divine "nature" of Andraste (I call him skeptical due to his writing... he clearly isn't afraid to question Chantry Dogma and seek the truth) .  Given this, I find it extremely unlikely that any of our characters would be full-on atheists, or even not believe in the Maker at all.

Until Thedas undergoes the Enlightenment, I'm going to have to stick to playing characters who believe in the Maker or follow the Chantry (or whatever is the appropriate religion for their culture). Unless I am playing a mage, that is... in which case their greater understanding of the Fade offers a explanation as to why such a character might doubt the veracity of the Chantry's claims.

Itkovian