135 réponses à ce sujet

[rob_k]

I could have re-worded the thread title better, I guess.

[Ivolon]

I think the comparison stems from general focus. Like PST DA2 story focuses on the protagonist and his/her story rather then a big world ending event.

[Maelora]

There's nothing to be gained by arguing this, because it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Those who like talky RPGs are not intrisically better than those who want FPS or action games.

However... there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. So I'm always a bit sad when franchises that were RPGs move towards the casual, action gamers. There's a LOT of button-mashing games out there. But not so many dialogue-heavy RPGs. I guess I just dislike seeing games homogenised.

Modifié par Maelora, 03 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[rob_k]

Maelora wrote...

There's nothing to be gained by arguing this, because it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Those who like talky RPGs are not intrisically better than those who want FPS or action games.

However... there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. So I'm always a bit sad when franchises that were RPGs move towards the casual, action gamers. There's a LOT of button-mashing games out there. But not so many dialogue-heavy RPGs. I guess I just dislike seeing games homogenised.

Guess I agree in terms of arguing this. I never intended to actually compare the game's stories. Rather, I just wanted to try and give people a positive aspect to focus on and discuss (rather than argue) on the way to release.

So, I guess it may as well be locked.

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

P:T is a philosophical monster story wise, and just a wonderful book to read. DA is generic fantasy with silly 3D sex, lots of hack&slash and evil teh draggghhonns to slay. I enjoyed DA:O, but there is a humongous abyss separating those games, and with approach Bioware has for their games now, they will never achieve something like P:T.

[Cadaveth]

Maelora wrote...
However... there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. So I'm always a bit sad when franchises that were RPGs move towards the casual, action gamers. There's a LOT of button-mashing games out there. But not so many dialogue-heavy RPGs. I guess I just dislike seeing games homogenised.

DAO was step into the right direction although it wasn't quite what I would've wanted... I'd trade voice overs for more and better quality dialogue.

[Snowbug]

PhrosniteAgainROFL wrote...

The 6 choices with 2 rows of dialog each is terrible game design...

In my opinion, it was brilliant.

[Maelora]

I don't disagree with you, Rob_k. I see what you were trying to do.

But Planescape: Torment has a small number of very devoted fans who still hold that game in high esteem. For me, it's never been bettered, 12 years later. Some of us can get touchy about comparisons, I guess!

[Maelora]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...
P:T is a philosophical monster story wise, and just a wonderful book to read. DA is generic fantasy with silly 3D sex, lots of hack&slash and evil teh draggghhonns to slay. I enjoyed DA:O, but there is a humongous abyss separating those games, and with approach Bioware has for their games now, they will never achieve something like P:T.

Absolutely.

[rob_k]

Maelora wrote...

I don't disagree with you, Rob_k. I see what you were trying to do.

But
Planescape: Torment has a small number of very devoted fans who still
hold that game in high esteem. For me, it's never been bettered, 12
years later. Some of us can get touchy about comparisons, I guess!

I've never actually completed the game, Maelora. (A sin I know)

I've owned it for several years and as soon as I finish my DA: O playthrough, I'll try to begin and complete a game of PS: T before DA 2 arrives.

From what I played of it though, the writing was outstanding and I'm a writer myself so I can recognise good writing when I see it.

Right now, I'm thankful my copy still works on XP after installing it the other day.

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[Beerfish]

Maelora wrote...

They're pretty much polar opposites. Chris Avellone said of Planescape: Torment 'we wanted a powerful story, and we didn't want to be afraid of it being too deep for mass market'.

DA2 seems to have gone for anime action over story. Not one review so far has praised the ending.

By all means, BW can retcon their games for the button-masher/FPS crowd. That's their right. But please don't tell us it's as good as P:T.

How can you make such a statement we haven't played DA2, we have no idea how the story works out.  Your post makes no sense at all.

[Killyox the Defender]

For the love of all thats holy or w/e DO NOT COMPARE DA to PS:T.


PS:T was one of if not the greatest, RPG of all time along chrono trigger baldurs and few others.

I went through PST like 50 times since ts initial release and i still find its plot awesome.

Barely anyone will speak of DAO/DA2 in 5 years while plenty of people will remember PST

Modifié par Killyox the Defender, 03 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[Kloreep]

A comparison to Planescape Torment certainly gets my attention. But, I have to think his comment was probably just as passing as it sounds. "This game had a good story, we try to make good stories too." Planescape was a lot like a book at times. DA2 seems to be following along with the new Bioware model of being a lot like a movie at times. I hope DA2 will be good at its own thing, but I don't think it's even trying to do something similar to PST.

simfamSP wrote...

I am just GLAD Bioware have gone for a different approach to their stories. I guess I am just fed up with the save the world plot.

Agreed. "You won't be saving the world," or something to that effect, is probably the most exciting thing I've read about DA2.

Maelora wrote...

DA2 seems to have gone for anime action over story. Not one review so far has praised the ending.

I have seen some troubling rumblings about the ending, but there has also been some praise for the storytelling.

I'm not going to take what the reviews say about the ending to heart too much, as I don't know the reviewers' tastes. I am fine with "no, this is really the right place to end the story, because the core element ends here."

Cadaveth wrote...

I think that having 3 options with 3-4
words in each is terrible game design... It's pretty easy to read long
sentences and you know what your PC is saying in P: ST. If you have
ADD.

As I believe has already been discussed in another thread, most games that offer more than 3 options usually aren't really offering you more than 3 outcomes.

PST is actually one of the few examples I can think of that truly needed a ton of dialogue options at times. ("What can change the nature of a man?" ) But even in PST, most conversations had 3 or fewer real outcomes. Where more options were given, it was usually just to ask for information - which in ME/DA2 is handled with the Investigate menu.

Modifié par Kloreep, 03 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[Maelora]

rob_k wrote...
I've never actually completed the game, Maelora. (A sin I know)
I've owned it for several years and as soon as I finish my DA: O playthrough, I'll try to begin and complete a game of PS: T before DA 2 arrives.
From what I played of it though, the writing was outstanding and I'm a writer myself so I can recognise good writing when I see it.

All fair points.  And I'm up for debate - I just feel... defensive about P: T.

 It might better if you renamed the title something like: " 'Personal story' vs 'save the world' - which do you prefer?"

Modifié par Maelora, 03 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[rob_k]

I'm not comparing it, Kill. My thread title could have been written better I guess.

[PhrosniteAgainROFL]

Beerfish wrote...

Maelora wrote...

They're pretty much polar opposites. Chris Avellone said of Planescape: Torment 'we wanted a powerful story, and we didn't want to be afraid of it being too deep for mass market'.

DA2 seems to have gone for anime action over story. Not one review so far has praised the ending.

By all means, BW can retcon their games for the button-masher/FPS crowd. That's their right. But please don't tell us it's as good as P:T.

How can you make such a statement we haven't played DA2, we have no idea how the story works out.  Your post makes no sense at all.

Because this is what jaded old-school gamers like to whine about. Those games are like the dinosaurs. DEAD!

[Beerfish]

Maelora wrote...

There's nothing to be gained by arguing this, because it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Those who like talky RPGs are not intrisically better than those who want FPS or action games.

However... there are a LOT more of the latter than the former. So I'm always a bit sad when franchises that were RPGs move towards the casual, action gamers. There's a LOT of button-mashing games out there. But not so many dialogue-heavy RPGs. I guess I just dislike seeing games homogenised.

Button smashing has nothing at all to do with how good an rpg is becasue button smashing is a game mechanic.  PST has as many fetch quests and grinding combat as most other games out there, the spells were over the top but the lone character, excellent writing and storyline are what made it a great great game.  Combat mechanics did not make it a great game or rpg, just like button mashing won't make or break DA2 as an rpg, the storyline and chracter interaction will.

[AkiKishi]

Beerfish wrote...

Button smashing has nothing at all to do with how good an rpg is becasue button smashing is a game mechanic.  PST has as many fetch quests and grinding combat as most other games out there, the spells were over the top but the lone character, excellent writing and storyline are what made it a great great game.  Combat mechanics did not make it a great game or rpg, just like button mashing won't make or break DA2 as an rpg, the storyline and chracter interaction will.

While that is true a game that tried to grab attention and be actiony to attract a certain crowd is very unlikely to be wordy for the same reason.

[Maelora]

PhrosniteAgainROFL wrote...
Because this is what jaded old-school gamers like to whine about. Those games are like the dinosaurs. DEAD!

Fine, fine, your side won. You can feel good about that.  The console model is the successful business model.

But do you have so little empathy for others that you don't see why other people might miss deeper games?

Bioware openly admit that ME and DA were changed deliberately to appeal more to the casual market, the fans of action games or FPS.  Do you understand that some people may not prefer that approach? 

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to restart the old/new school debate.  The topic was a comparison of PST and DA2 and I offered my reasons as to why these are completely different games aimed at completely different markets. 

Modifié par Maelora, 03 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Killyox the Defender]

BTW i still have my 12 years old original 4 cd packed CDs and in relatively good shape [they work!] Thats how much i appreciate the insane plot deep plot very emotional.


I was like WTF?!! when hawke went *sigh* when he/she lost its sibling.

[rob_k]

Maelora wrote...

rob_k wrote...
I've never actually completed the game, Maelora. (A sin I know)
I've owned it for several years and as soon as I finish my DA: O playthrough, I'll try to begin and complete a game of PS: T before DA 2 arrives.
From what I played of it though, the writing was outstanding and I'm a writer myself so I can recognise good writing when I see it.

All fair points.  And I'm up for debate - I just feel... defensive about P: T.

 It might better if you renamed the title something like: " 'Personal story' vs 'save the world' - which do you prefer?"

Re-worded it slightly, so it's clear I wasn't actually comparing the two 'stories'. If that still doesn't do it, then I'll rip PST out of the title altogether.

That defeats the thread's purpose altogether however.

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[PhrosniteAgainROFL]

Maelora wrote...

PhrosniteAgainROFL wrote...
Because this is what jaded old-school gamers like to whine about. Those games are like the dinosaurs. DEAD!

Fine, fine, your side won. You can feel good about that.  The console model is the successful business model.

But do you have so little empathy for others that you don't see why other people might miss deeper games?

I'm all for deeper games but from what I've seen in the past week, this forum is full of whinners who bi*ch and moan about little, unimportant things.

Didn't ME, ME2 and DA:O have awesome characters and worlds to explore? But people don't see that. What they see is, "OH, THEY DUMBED IT DOWN FOR THE CONSOLES. WHERE'S IS MY INVENTORY? WHERE IS MY LOOT? I WANT TO PLAY DRESS UP WITH MY CHARACTERS!"

[Maelora]

Fair enough Rob. Yes, I think BW could go for a very personal experience... but I just don't think that fits their new business model. They have said that casual gamers feel confused by choices, so they've 'streamlined' the talent trees and conversation options.

However, supposedly there will be some degree of personal experience, as (supposedly) Kirkwall is going to change based on the choices you make. However, I really don't think there will be deep or compelling plotlines in a game like this. The rather casual way they treated the sibling death suggests they're not going for deep immersion here.

[AkiKishi]

Killyox the Defender wrote...

BTW i still have my 12 years old original 4 cd packed CDs and in relatively good shape [they work!] Thats how much i appreciate the insane plot deep plot very emotional.


I was like WTF?!! when hawke went *sigh* when he/she lost its sibling.

One of the most negative things about this game design is that if you want to keep fooling people into thinking Hawke is their character his reactions have to be muted in general. People got into a tizzy when Shepard hugged Liara, claiming that "Their Shepard" would never do that.

In PST it was very clear that TNO was made for the game and the discovery was the roleplaying, not actually playing out a background.

[Killyox the Defender]

On a side note.

To me 6 options of 2 rows of dialogue is better then what DA2 offers.

For all i care you could scrap all voice covers for hawke and i wouldnt miss it. In PS;T it was ME who put voice over for char, i could say it a loud and in a manner that was fitting me personally the best.

Now in DA2 when i picked 2 word option i had NO IDEA what will the result be with voice over's extension of dialogue. It means i pick answer but dont know what i choose until i do so.THIS is poor design. Mass market... blehhh.

DAO was quite ok but the story was bland and execution of skill trees was very bad.

*save the world* gets old, its like watching US movies