135 réponses à ce sujet

[da0Xeffect]

Maelora wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Maelora wrote...
and DA2 has half the diologue of Origins; fact. 

lolwut. Do you realise how stupid this comment is?

It's a fact.  They printed the stats recently, and Bioware themselves said that DA2 has about 40% of the words of Origins.

Please don't call people stupid without checking facts.

Actually I believe they said, in terms of dialogue, was about 2/3 the length of DA:O. The origins part did take up a good amount of the dialogue in the beginning.

[Skilled Seeker]

Maelora wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Maelora wrote...
and DA2 has half the diologue of Origins; fact. 

lolwut. Do you realise how stupid this comment is?

It's a fact.  They printed the stats recently, and Bioware themselves said that DA2 has about 40% of the words of Origins.

Please don't call people stupid without checking facts.

BS.

[Maelora]

Taleroth wrote...
If there was one thing I wish writers took from Planescape, it would be the power of themes. It'd be nice if DA 2 had a consistent recurring theme throughout that managed to also be inspiring. We'll see.

I totally agree, but I don't think DA2 will be as deep.

The emphasis seems to be more on 'how did Hawke become so awesome'.   They are aiming at a different market, I think, one that doesn't want complications and responsibility.

Though I could be pleasantly surprised.

[Maelora]

Oh all right, this was a good idea for a thread but now it's just degenerating into off-topic name-calling. I'm outta here. Thanks to those who did actually want to debate.

[AkiKishi]

Autolycus wrote...

Maelora...

Gotya...and no...I didn't like the comparison lmao Ye, also agree TNO 'did' feel like our character, despite him being a pre-determined character....writing the likes of we will never see again unfortuantely....

Rob....gotya...understand now.....and yes, I can see the direction it went in hehe.....but grats for the effort to make a good thread amidst the trash thats currently floating around.

Whether or not you felt a connection with him it's not really the same thing. There was nothing you could add to TNO because of the game structure. But because discovering what was there was so engrossing, it never really mattered.

Hawke is very 2 dimensional compared to TNO. It allows more people to identify with the character, but at the price of being somewhat "brick like" the same as Shepard.

[elearon1]

I like personal character stories, so I have no problem with that. And, while I honestly doubt the game will compare on a realistic level with PS:T - I as honestly hope it does ... I would love to play another game I could put on that same shelf and point to as an example of what other games should strive to be.

[rob_k]

Autolycus wrote...

Bluumberry

Would suggest if you can cope with the old infinity engine (though the widescreen mod helps considerably) you find a copy (just been re-released last year actually, so no more obscene prices for it)....truly is one of the best games ever made.

As for DA, I agree with the other poster than in 10 years time, very few ppl will look back on it with such fondness as they do other titles....because at their core, while enoyable, they are not 'great'.

GoG.com would be a good place to check.

[Kloreep]

Maelora wrote...

There are a lot of games which offer 'tighter stories', notably Final Fantasy type games.

Well, depends on your definition of "tighter story." Final Fantasy is hardly the quality of writing I'm looking for. I have to admit I have no experience with XIII, but I did play a significant amount of XII. The story was linear, yes, so I suppose it was tighter in that it had no trapdoors or forks through which I had to decide to go one way or another. But the writing did not impress me at all.

I suppose the kind of freedom I am looking for, to tie back in to the thread topic, is some opportunity to be truly confused about what I should be trying to do, not just which party in a binary I should choose to help me in do the unquestionable task of saving the world. That's one area where I hope DA2 can improve on DAO. DAO did succeed in having some tough choices, but they were all framed through that old "save the world" story.

I had the freedom to define my Warden's personality, sure; but at the same time, I didn't have much opportunity to define the Warden's role, and that restricted my Warden's actions quite a bit. That leads to some weird circumstances where my self-interested Warden had to do some fairly selfless things in the name of ending the blight, because going AWOL was never an option. (I guess even the evilest of characters is just supposed to accept the notion that no one else could possibly do the job?) Similar problems with my first Warden, really, who started out as a fairly upstanding person, but ended up making some pretty callous choices. She definitely did not take the journey I had initially pictured or intended for her, and did not end up being anywhere near the person I pictured when I did not realize how dark the game was going to go. I did enjoy the journey I did take, but I did not feel the game was leaving my characters within my control. The best I can say for it is that it often felt like it was the story that was forcing me to re-think my characters - or, more immersively, forcing my characters to re-think themselves - rather than options being cut off for no good reason.

It's a tough balance. The only games I can think of where I felt like my leash was truly invisible are PST and KOTOR 2. (Same Lead Writer, heh.) The Mass Effects have also done a pretty good job, although not perfect; but then, as you say, that's partly because it sets expectations lower to begin with.

No idea if DA2 will leave me feeling the same way. But in some ways, I'm happy to leave an expectation of full control at the door, if that means that the more limited control I do expect will actually be fulfilled.

[AkiKishi]

Kloreep wrote...
....

XIII is horrible,
XII Generic but good
X is brilliant
IX brilliant
VIII so/so
VII above average
VI brilliant
V average story best game system ever.
IV Spoony Bard ! story is ok
III Crystals
II Hated it , sorry can't say anything good about that.
I still fun.

VII is where the "cinematic" experience starts to become the norm.

Tactics actually has a really good story come to think of it.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[rob_k]

Kloreep wrote...
Well, depends on your definition of "tighter story." Final Fantasy is hardly the quality of writing I'm looking for. I have to admit I have no experience with XIII, but I did play a significant amount of XII. The story was linear, yes, so I suppose it was tighter in that it had no trapdoors or forks through which I had to decide to go one way or another. But the writing did not impress me at all.

I suppose the kind of freedom I am looking for, to tie back in to the thread topic, is some opportunity to be truly confused about what I should be trying to do, not just which party in a binary I should choose to help me in do the unquestionable task of saving the world. That's one area where I hope DA2 can improve on DAO. DAO did succeed in having some tough choices, but they were all framed through that old "save the world" story.

I had the freedom to define my Warden's personality, sure; but at the same time, I didn't have much opportunity to define the Warden's role, and that restricted my Warden's actions quite a bit. That leads to some weird circumstances where my self-interested Warden had to do some fairly selfless things in the name of ending the blight, because going AWOL was never an option. (I guess even the evilest of characters is just supposed to accept the notion that no one else could possibly do the job?) Similar problems with my first Warden, really, who started out as a fairly upstanding person, but ended up making some pretty callous choices. She definitely did not take the journey I had initially pictured or intended for her, and did not end up being anywhere near the person I pictured when I did not realize how dark the game was going to go. I did enjoy the journey I did take, but I did not feel the game was leaving my characters within my control. The best I can say for it is that it often felt like it was the story that was forcing me to re-think my characters - or, more immersively, forcing my characters to re-think themselves - rather than options being cut off for no good reason.

It's a tough balance. The only games I can think of where I felt like my leash was truly invisible are PST and KOTOR 2. (Same Lead Writer, heh.) The Mass Effects have also done a pretty good job, although not perfect; but then, as you say, that's partly because it sets expectations lower to begin with.

No idea if DA2 will leave me feeling the same way. But in some ways, I'm happy to leave an expectation of full control at the door, if that means that the more limited control I do expect will actually be fulfilled.

While I've only responded to a small portion of the post here, I wanted to say it was a good post in its entirety.

When it comes to DA: O and DA 2, I loved DA: O. But I didn't feel it did enough in terms of making you feel the consequences of your actions throughout the game.

I'm hoping that changes with DA 2 and we actually have to think and ponder what the correct choice is.

With the game being split into acts now rather than having you tackle the main quest in any order, we should be able to feel the weight of our decisions. (I hope anyway)

I know some people criticise DA: O as well for still having good and evil choices, but I thought they did a good job of adding shades of grey also with the choices. Add that to DA 2 with what I mentioned above and I do have high hopes for the game.

Modifié par rob_k, 03 mars 2011 - 05:11 .

[da0Xeffect]

Honestly, I have hard time connecting with any character, be it the Warden, Hawke or any character (never played PS:T). I just enjoy the characters and being able to determine what they say is just fine with me.

[Gloriana]

Maelora wrote...

They're pretty much polar opposites. Chris Avellone said of Planescape: Torment 'we wanted a powerful story, and we didn't want to be afraid of it being too deep for mass market'.

DA2 seems to have gone for anime action over story. Not one review so far has praised the ending.

By all means, BW can retcon their games for the button-masher/FPS crowd. That's their right. But please don't tell us it's as good as P:T.

Seriously, knock it off with the anime crap. Saying it's an "anime" is like saying that DA is simply "fiction" -- it's a genre. It's a very diverse genre like anything else, with (sometimes) heavily stylized cartoons. The people who compare the two have very obviously never seen any anime beyond Adult Swim.

[AkiKishi]

One of the odd things about DA2 when I think about it... We are supposed to make the choices, but at some point either Hawke runs away or disapears so it's not like you have to live with them.

Finished Killzone 3 not long ago and the ending hit me for six. I'd just finished the game, taken down the threat and was all ready to whoop it up. And then well, lets just say it's one that really got you thinking about everything you did. Even though it had to be done and I'd still do the same thing. I never felt good about it.

And that's from an FPS.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[rob_k]

BobSmith101 wrote...

One of the odd things about DA2 when I think about it... We are supposed to make the choices, but at some point either Hawke runs away or disapears so it's not like you have to live with them.

Finished Killzone 3 not long ago and the ending hit me for six. I'd just finished the game, taken down the threat and was all ready to whoop it up. And then well, lets just say it's one that really got you thinking about everything you did. Even though it had to be done and I'd still do the same thing. I never felt good about it.

And that's from an FPS.

I've not played KZ 3, but let me guess, left you pondering the acts you commit and whether it was all necessary etc.?

[Kloreep]

Beerfish wrote...

Yes, just like PST. The Nameless one is certainly not our character.

I agree with Maelora, I thought it did a pretty good job of making TNO the player's character. It did so through the amnesiac excuse that is by now such a cliche, of course, which is how it gave TNO so much rich history without putting any restrictions on the player's own take on the character.

DA2 is not taking that easy way out, though so we'll have to see just how restrictive Hawke's past history ends up being. Like I said, I thought KOTOR 2 did a great job with that: it defined your character's past, but then left it to you to decide how that past informed your present-day character - and it did it simply with good, well-paced writing, without having to do the old amnesia story.

Edit: Hopefully DA2 follows suit. Hawke is somewhat young at the opening, I believe, so for DA2 this writing challenge may apply more to the time shifts than to any backstory that exists at the very opening of the game.

Modifié par Kloreep, 03 mars 2011 - 05:18 .

[AkiKishi]

rob_k wrote...

I've not played KZ 3, but let me guess, left you pondering the acts you commit and whether it was all necessary etc.?

More like WTF did we just do...

It was absolutely necessary but the outcome was completely unforseen and "bad". For an FPS the storytelling and characterisation impressed me a lot.

[Raphael diSanto]

By all means, BW can retcon their games for the button-masher/FPS crowd. That's their right. But please don't tell us it's as good as P:T.

"good" is 100% subjective. 

[aries1001]

If you look closely at the 6 responses given to you in PS:T, you'll notice that they fall into three groups a) two of the answers are probably fighting words two of the answers are more diplomatic words and 3) two of the answers are somewhere in between. DA2's response system works exactly like that, except for the fact that it is more 'hidden', both in form of what you'd say and in form of what you're able to see of your answers.

PS: Torment shines in another departmen altogether; the courage to topsey-turvey (look it up) everything. Rats became intelligent, zombies in the mortuary were non-aggressive, and every convention in the D&D book went, as I said, topsey-turvey (again, look it up).

And dying actually meant something, some of the quests in the game were only available to you after you had died two or three times. Every time you died in PS:T, you'd wake up in the Mortuary - the bonus was that you'd remember more of your past everytime, you died. (The Witcher seems, at least in part, to have been inspired by this way of handling death - Geralt's memory seem to be coming back little by little).

This is, so far, the only game that have dared to to defy the D&D conventions, and gotten away with it, PS:T, that is. Sad it is that it didn't sell well (about 500,000 copies, last time I checked...) I especially liked the idea of making rats very intelligent and smart and somewhat strong enemies in PS:T - normally in D&D, rats are often used as a way to ease people and players into the story and the combat.

Not so in PS:T...

I'm not sure, if DA: Origins or DA2 have ever done the same....with rats, I mean, or turned (some of) the concentions all topsey-turvey...

[Kloreep]

As the writers themselves have said, I think the DA universe is trying to subvert D&D in another way. Rather than turning everything "topsey-turvey" they are taking everything seriously and at face value - and then attempting to take it to its logical conclusion. Hence mage control/persecution, the fight to control the lyrium trade, etc.

[AlanC9]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Hawke is very 2 dimensional compared to TNO. It allows more people to identify with the character, but at the price of being somewhat "brick like" the same as Shepard.

How'd you manage to play DA2 already?

[AllThatJazz]

DarthCaine wrote...

Comparing DA2 and PS:T is more of an insult to PS:T

Errr, sorry to nitpick, but isn't that bit of dialogue from Durlag's Tower in BG:TotSC? 

[AkiKishi]

AlanC9 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Hawke is very 2 dimensional compared to TNO. It allows more people to identify with the character, but at the price of being somewhat "brick like" the same as Shepard.

How'd you manage to play DA2 already?

It's hardly a pre-requisite for figuring that out.