187 réponses à ce sujet

[Schyzm]

Skellimancer wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

Looks like you balanced it using alphabetical order.

so lawl I cried.

[macayle]

Evkun wrote...

I'm pretty sure 2H characters are balanced by having unique and powerful crowd control abilities. Anything that causes a mob to land on his butt is multiple free hits and also precious seconds that say a caster isn't flinging AOE doom at the party.

Now, the viability of runes on a given fighting style is another matter. I have yet to blow much cash on buying grandmaster anything, but I somehow get the feeling runes will be much more worthwhile on dual-wielding or sword/board characters than on 2handers. At least, the +damage ones. I forget if the max runes per weapon changes based on weapon type though. Well, at the very least it makes defensive runes a more efficient choice for 2H.

so far from what i can tell a 2hander  usually has more slots than a 1 hander of a similar tier.  Additionaly then tend to have more permanent buffs attached to them. ( this is only based on what i have seen ingame as i could have missed a weapon or two)

[mufuti7]

neverdavis2009 wrote...
Now there is a nice DEX hotfix from Bioware for daggers and bows. So I call for a hotfix that makes TH a bit stronger too.

The FIX is for FIXING a bug with the game that did not add the damage modifier you get from Dexterity (0.5 str, 0.5 dex for daggers).
So they did not just release a patch that daggers could do more damage, they just fixed a bug so the game can play the way it was intended. I' think two hand weapon damage is working as intended. I cannot believe how obsessed people are with the damage numbers in this game, you sure you did not want to post all those DPS discussion into the WoW forums?

macayle wrote...
so far from what i can tell a 2hander 
usually has more slots than a 1 hander of a similar tier.  Additionaly
then tend to have more permanent buffs attached to them. ( this is only
based on what i have seen ingame as i could have missed a weapon or
two)

Yes, that is true but you can equip two 1 handed weapons (obviously) thus more total runeslots. Also runes work
independantly of weapon speed which means, for example, + DMG runes scale a lot better with faster attack speeds. Not to speak of secondary effects like paralizing runes on two fast weapons (amazing!)

Modifié par mufuti7, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[macayle]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

I've heard intel that 2H is supposed to be more damage vs heavy armor & DW is supposed to be more damage vs light armor. Is at least this working? Or perhaps is the game too heavy on light armor foes?

No this is true.  My Rogue shreds weaker enemies while Sten tears down the tougher ones.  The difference is completely noticeable and he's been a very valuable member in my party on Nightmare.

I have noticed the same effects even 1 handers have more of an effect than my daggers  seems right to me.

[hexaligned]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

I'm sorry, but nothing TH has remotely balances the fact they do 3x less damage than DWing.  Maybe it had something initially that got wittled down in testing?  At the very least rune and weapon enchant (fire, ice) damage should scale with weapon speed, It still wouldn't put Th on the same level as DW, but it would make it at least somewhat viable to fill a char slot with it.

[macayle]

Fluffykeith wrote...

Oh, and are there any other battle-reenactment guys out there? How many of you have seen someone wielding a 2handed sword or axe as fast as a sword and shield? Sure, Katana's are fast (not that they're actually 2handers), but the 2handed weapons in DA:O are closer to European medieval 2handers, and those were big and SLOW, and hit hard.

me for one.  Been down this road before  people watch movies and belive that is how things were  which is why i get bugged at some of the supposedly 'period" movies that come out and are filled with mistakes.

[thisisme8]

Try using Sword and Shield, Dual Weapon, and Two Handed Weapon characters together. The results are astonishing. Get your SS in early to soak up the initial hits and grab the attention, have your 2H run in and debuff/knockdown (along with SS), then finish them off with your DW. Yes, DW is made for DPS, but he/she does much better DPS working alongside a 2H. Not to mention the damage mitigation from knocked down enemies.



In summary, ahem... 2H aren't made for massive DPS, although they can achieve it. 2H are more for utility, albeit bone breaking in its delivery.

[Darth_Shizz]

The argument shouldn't even begin to try and put any one class on par with another...it's fairly fruitless. The real test is how useful (or useless) any one class is when dealing with an enemy. Who cares that a 2-hander doesn't do as much dps as a dual-wielder, especially when you consider the game CAN be completed on nightmare with several 2-handers if you so choose to go down that road...



Now if you want to be silly, and argue that balance = giving you a reason to choose a 2-handed controller, over a dual-wielding DEE-PEE-ESSER, then you've failed from the word go -.-



As I stated on the last page, 2h DEFINITELY has its merits. At least assuming you choose to look a little deeper than "how much damage am I doing?". Seriously, this isn't Diablo 0_o

[ITSSEXYTIME]

relhart wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

I'm sorry, but nothing TH has remotely balances the fact they do 3x less damage than DWing.  Maybe it had something initially that got wittled down in testing?  At the very least rune and weapon enchant (fire, ice) damage should scale with weapon speed, It still wouldn't put Th on the same level as DW, but it would make it at least somewhat viable to fill a char slot with it.

Once again, DPS isn't everything.  A 2 hander has debuffs and high AP which helps a ton vs bosses with high resistances (and therefore can't be stunned)


2 handers are basically anti-bosses, lategame getting some crowd control stuff with Powerful Sweep.

[Darth_Shizz]

thisisme8 wrote...
 have your 2H run in and debuff/knockdown (along with SS), then finish them off with your DW. Yes, DW is made for DPS, but he/she does much better DPS working alongside a 2H. Not to mention the damage mitigation from knocked down enemies.

 

And assuming (very hard to tell as it is) Destroyer works off of activated abilities in the same way Stunning Blows does, that sweep will not only have a chance of stunning on top of the knockdown, but also plaster every enemy it catches with an armour debuff, in turn increasing the damage your dual-wielder is doing...yes my friends, this IS a good time to blow stamina on a dw-sweep and whirlwind

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[thisisme8]

This may sound crazy to some, but create a 2H, throw light armor on him and crank up his STR, DEX, and WILL... see how you like 'em.

[Tyrax Lightning]

Olmert wrote...

One thing that would be interesting would be to increase weapon speed as strength is increased. Obviously, the weapon weights are pretty much a constant, but the stronger a character is, the quicker he could wield a weightier weapon. So in the beginning, a 2h warrior would swing slowly, but as strength increased so would the speed of his attacks. It makes sense to me; whether it could be added to the game is something else...

I'm glad i'm not the only one that thought of this. I had a similar idea while reading a prior 2H discussion thread. (Wish I could find the dang thing again, I wasn't done lookin in on it, but it vanished on me, & I can't Search for it since Search still isn't ready to go.)

[thisisme8]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...
 have your 2H run in and debuff/knockdown (along with SS), then finish them off with your DW. Yes, DW is made for DPS, but he/she does much better DPS working alongside a 2H. Not to mention the damage mitigation from knocked down enemies.

 

And assuming (very hard to tell as it is) Destroyer works off of activated abilities in the same way Stunning Blows does, that sweep will not only have a chance of stunning on top of the knockdown, but also plaster every enemy it catches with an armour debuff, in turn increasing the damage your duel-wielder is doing...yes my friends, this IS a good time to blow stamina on a dw-sweep and whirlwind

God forbid your party members work together!

[GilgameshXD]

2h's are terrible.



Stop arguing about the debuffs, they last 10 seconds and are minuscule (aside from sunder armor, which is ok).



Knockdown immunity is useful in a couple of boss fights, and does not help much vs knockback at all vs dragons, i.e. you are still going to get knocked backed, often before you even get a swing in.



You also get lower dps than dual wielders, only slightly better then sword+board, and defense even mages are ashamed off.



Nothing scales like it does for dual wielders. Rune damage and Beserker+Blood Frenzy both benifit Dual Wielders more as they are static bonuses.



The attack animation in addition to looking terrible are hardly realistic.



I don't know if they need an talent that boosts attack speed though. What they need is the ability to actually do good damage. Have powerful swings scale with strength instead of being a crappy +5 damage buff. Increase the coefficient on 2h to .75 -1,00 or more, so that they actually do significantly more damage than sword+board, etc.



Also, the main reason for this huge discrepancy, aside from unimpressive str interaction with 2h's, is momentum. All things considered, all weapon talent families are mostly filled with crap, aside from a few really good talents. Momentum is one such talent, that is easy to keep on at all time and providing an almost +50% boost to dps just like that.



Meanwhile, sword+board and 2h's have nothing comparable to being so good.

[rumination888]

Another topic about 2-handed weapons?
If anything they should buff DW for warriors.
Seems like the majority of people I've seen make a DW warrior by putting points into Str and Dex.
Then, when they go and try a 2H warrior, they have this idea that if they dump points on Dex and Con that their 2Hander is supposed to deal as much DPS as a DWer.

I think itd be better if people learned the gameplay mechanics before they complain that 2H is worse than DW.

[thisisme8]

Stop arguing about the debuffs, they last 10 seconds and are minuscule (aside from sunder armor, which is ok). 

On a stunned enemy with his armor 'sundered,' 10 seconds is all a DW backstabbing rogue needs.

Also, there are very few dragons, so they would be the exception, but there are plenty of yellows and oranges running around where a 2H comes in very useful...  especially if a rogue just happens to be sneaking up behind him once my 2H has softened him up.

[Darth_Shizz]

I'm pretty sure most people aren't even sore over 2-handed warriors, merely the lack of Bioware hand-holding over combat mechanics. Couple that with a lack of combat logs, and you're bound to hear a lot of crying and ill-perceived "balance" fixes

[CreativePhobia]

VeeVito wrote...

These threads are odd to me...as someone who is playijng the game as a two handed warrior, it sometimes makes me feel like either:

A) I'm playing a completely different game and thus I check to see what forum i'm on, or

...well, i don't know...

My guy has great skills and damage output. Do I have a bugged game? Because i'd love to experience this "two hander sucks" game that you guys keep talking about..

More than likely its a crowd of "I cast magic missle" players who don't know up from down about stat allocation, because I feel the same way as you.

I can't imagine a dual weilding warrior doing anything close to a 2h one when it comes to a target with heavy armor. This has nothing to do with activated skills either. It's all about armor penetration and strength modifier. All the same, Sten has been able to consistently 1-shot whites for the past 8 levels. That's all the convincing I need that this argument is garbage, because 2h has the advantage on the higher ranks anyway.

Modifié par CreativePhobia, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[forgottensun]

I could really care about "DPS". My biggest gripe is the lack of worthwhile abilities. The tactics involved include...Run Indominable and auto attack or use 2 special abilitys and then auto attack. This makes my warrior a very boring character to play.  Much like BG and NWN a melee character with  will be auto-attacking 95% of the time.
 
I had hoped for alot more tactical choices ( for melee)  with Dragon Age but I was let down in this department. Some of this could be contributed to playstyle and leveling choices on my part. I am not a meta-gamer so I might not have "the build" and I dont care to have it. The bottom line is, Dragon Age is alot of fun and Ill be finishing my second play through soon.  But I feel the choices for melee combat were a little stale. 

On a side note... where are the polearms?

[addiction21]

forgottensun wrote...

I could really care about "DPS". My biggest gripe is the lack of worthwhile abilities. The tactics involved include...Run Indominable and auto attack or use 2 special abilitys and then auto attack. This makes my warrior a very boring character to play.  Much like BG and NWN a melee character with  will be auto-attacking 95% of the time.
 
I had hoped for alot more tactical choices ( for melee)  with Dragon Age but I was let down in this department. Some of this could be contributed to playstyle and leveling choices on my part. I am not a meta-gamer so I might not have "the build" and I dont care to have it. The bottom line is, Dragon Age is alot of fun and Ill be finishing my second play through soon.  But I feel the choices for melee combat were a little stale. 

On a side note... where are the polearms?

I have the scoop on that. They will be added in a future DLC but instead of points or dollars they will be asking for your first born and a pound of flesh.

[thisisme8]

forgottensun wrote...

I could really care about "DPS". My biggest gripe is the lack of worthwhile abilities. The tactics involved include...Run Indominable and auto attack or use 2 special abilitys and then auto attack. This makes my warrior a very boring character to play.  Much like BG and NWN a melee character with  will be auto-attacking 95% of the time.
 
I had hoped for alot more tactical choices ( for melee)  with Dragon Age but I was let down in this department. Some of this could be contributed to playstyle and leveling choices on my part. I am not a meta-gamer so I might not have "the build" and I dont care to have it. The bottom line is, Dragon Age is alot of fun and Ill be finishing my second play through soon.  But I feel the choices for melee combat were a little stale. 

On a side note... where are the polearms?

A couple of questions, is your 2H also your tank?  If not, what type of armor are you using?  Do you put any points in WILL?

[Inarai]

thisisme8 wrote...

forgottensun wrote...

I could really care about "DPS". My biggest gripe is the lack of worthwhile abilities. The tactics involved include...Run Indominable and auto attack or use 2 special abilitys and then auto attack. This makes my warrior a very boring character to play.  Much like BG and NWN a melee character with  will be auto-attacking 95% of the time.
 
I had hoped for alot more tactical choices ( for melee)  with Dragon Age but I was let down in this department. Some of this could be contributed to playstyle and leveling choices on my part. I am not a meta-gamer so I might not have "the build" and I dont care to have it. The bottom line is, Dragon Age is alot of fun and Ill be finishing my second play through soon.  But I feel the choices for melee combat were a little stale. 

On a side note... where are the polearms?

A couple of questions, is your 2H also your tank?  If not, what type of armor are you using?  Do you put any points in WILL?

Gameplay forums are the place to go if you need that sort of help.

[0mar]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

The game is not balanced, period.  Warriors/Rogues are just there to basically provide banter for the player to hear.  With two decently spec'ed mages, the game is a complete breeze on nightmare.  This is contrasted with my (poorly-built) 2-hander who had difficulty with a single mob on hard.  On nightmare with my mage, I can easily aggro two or three groups and finish them off in half the time.  What took me close to 20 minutes per floor on the Circle quest, I can do in less than 5.  So yea, warriors/rogues need a desperate buff or magic needs to get toned down.

[Seclus]

i dunno i think 2h is bugged



critical strike seems to miss 50% of the time when i use it. in my inventory screen my stats state 110 as my to hit chance. and yet I seem to miss 30% of the time. if I am doing something wrong with my 2h warrior let me know but I can not one shot a white name as a PC. I feel like my PC never has enough stam to be effective at doing anything other then auto attacking for dps. I feel something needs to be looked at but thats just me. I like 2h but they seem less benifical then a DW or a S&B warrior. I think it just a problem to to hit and they should add runes the would help a 2hander more like + to critical stike damage. this would give 2h that little ooomf to make them as viable as the other specs. but this is all opnion if any one has advise on how to improve what I have done on my 2h send me a msg.

[Darth_Shizz]

forgottensun wrote...

I could really care about "DPS". My biggest gripe is the lack of worthwhile abilities. The tactics involved include...Run Indominable and auto attack or use 2 special abilitys and then auto attack. This makes my warrior a very boring character to play.  Much like BG and NWN a melee character with  will be auto-attacking 95% of the time.
 

This is pretty easily solved:

Run in, let your first swing count. Now, Depending on the enemies you have around, either
  
 a)  Hit a disabler with a knockdown, then throw out a sunder arms/critical strike followed quickly by a sustainable of your choice for no activated stamina loss.

Hit a group of clustered disablers with sweep, sundering their armour and hopefully stunning them in the process, then throw out a sunder arms/critical strike (at increased damage) followed quickly by a sustainable of your choice for no activated stamina loss.

c) Go straight into your activated damage abilities without incapacitating beforehand. I have to stress the importance of knowing your enemy though, as you really DON'T want to waste stamina activating a talent that fails to come out due to being stunned.

The real beauty of this method, is that sustainables like precise striking and powerful swings have a tiny amount of frames. Essentially, you can hit with say, weapon sweep, then cancel that into a sustainable and come out swinging an auto-attack without much (if any) delay...all with no stamina cost, bar the roof it puts on your pool.

Having rejuv. available to you comes in fairly handy too, though it's  definitely not essential.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:53 .