187 réponses à ce sujet

[Infiniteone2]

It really pisses me off to no end how any game that offers DW and 2H, 2h gets left in the dust. FFS 2H is cooler than DW by far for non-rogue type classes, why don't devs realize this? Have they not grown up watching the same movies and reading the sames book as I have? Someone please tell me where this DW love for non-rogues started so I can steal me a nuke and rid it from the Earth forever.

[MartinJHolm]

relhart wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

I'm sorry, but nothing TH has remotely balances the fact they do 3x less damage than DWing.  Maybe it had something initially that got wittled down in testing?  At the very least rune and weapon enchant (fire, ice) damage should scale with weapon speed, It still wouldn't put Th on the same level as DW, but it would make it at least somewhat viable to fill a char slot with it.

Seriously make an effort to get the point
 
2-handers have some added utility that you don't get otherwise - they might do less damage but that's not everything.

Just compare it to some degree with creation of entropy mages they don't do much damage but they add a lot of utility.

This game isn't all about pew-pew.

[IAGTTBleed]

Has everyone forgotten that this is a ROLE PLAYING game? It's not about which character does the most damage in a minute or how many times you can cast fireball in a row. It's about having fun playing a character. If I figured out the exact DPS for all types of characters and chose my character based on that only I would be missing the point of PLAYING a ROLE. Some of the most fun in RPG's can be had with the 'weakest' characters (halfling monk anyone?). Just because my Dwarf Warrior isn't the most destructive doesn't mean I'm not having alot of FUN cracking skulls with my enormous two-handed hammer.



C'mon people!

[Infiniteone2]

double post, these forums suck.

Modifié par Infiniteone2, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Trajan60]

It seems the DPS ass clowns from the WoW community made their way here.

[DragoonKain3]

As a note of bug fixing...



... the manual outright states that twohanding should give 50% more attribute modifiers.



And from what I read of the code, this is not the case at all. Sword/shield and twohanding gives the exact same damage from modifiers, at least if I'm reading Combat_Damage_GetAttributeBonus in core_h.nss correctly.



Same manual also states that dual wielding only uses half of STR modifier for an offhand weapon, which is actually implemented in said function of core_h.nss.



So twohanding not giving +50% attribute bonus is working as intended and the manual is wrong? Or the manual is right and its not implemented in-game? Or did I just royally screw up my code reading and the +50% attribute bonus is applied somewhere?



For some reason, I highly doubt the last one is true, since the damage from 2handing is nowhere near +25% of swordboarding, let alone the +50% it should be.

[rumination888]

A +50% modifier on 2-handers would be ridiculous to anyone that allocates their stats correctly.

2H only needs 1 stat: Strength
SnB and DW needs 2 stats: Strength and Dexterity

Strength adds to damage and accuracy.
Dexterity adds to accuracy.

If you want to see 2H do more DPS than DW, put all your points into strength and weild a maul(mauls give +25% attribute bonus).

[DragoonKain3]

Note that the way it currently is, it doesn't work that way.

Go look at my post in Discobird's rogue thread over at the gameplay section, for exact numbers how I came to these damage numbers.

A lvl 18 warrior axe/dagger hits with his t7 axe for 47.6 points of damage (accounting only weapon damage, attribute damage bonus, and level up damage bonuses), over 1.2 seconds, or 39.7 dps.

A lvl 18 warrior, wearing the same equips would hit with the same axe for 66.8 damage if he's using a shield, over 1.4 seconds. Or 47.7 dps.

A lvl 18 warrior, same as above but using a t7 Maul and with all his points in STR (56 vs 50), would do around 84.6 damage, but this is over 2.505 seconds, or 33.8 dps.

In other words, still a load of a toad's droppings, since its dps is still nowhere near the others. And this isn't taking into account bonus damage, in which the very slow attack speed of the 2hander gives them much less than the much faster speeds of the other wields.

Now if the game actually gave you +50% strength modifier like tha manual states, then things looks a bit better. A Chasind maul would then do 113.5 damage pet hit over 2.505 seconds, which is 45.33 dps.

See, isn't that much more fair?

[CalibanX]

As it stands now, I get a more visceral experience of wielding of pure, brute force from Shield Bash than I do from any of the 2H abilities. I think this is backwards.



What I'd like to see with 2H abilities is more knockdowns and sending enemies flying with the two handed, mighty swings of my huge, heavy weapon. It doesn't need to inflict any more damage, but one should have the feeling that using a 2H weapon involves more power and force at the expense of fewer strikes. To me, this translates best into knocking opponents off their feet in some dramatic fashion.

[Grovermancer]

Fluffykeith wrote...
Oh, and are there any other battle-reenactment guys out there? How many of you have seen someone wielding a 2handed sword or axe as fast as a sword and shield? Sure, Katana's are fast (not that they're actually 2handers), but the 2handed weapons in DA:O are closer to European medieval 2handers, and those were big and SLOW, and hit hard.

I know bunches of guys who do (full contact stuff, not the nerf Darkon stuff)

I also know a LOT of world-class and (literally) Olympic caliber sports and strength trainers.


2 points:

1.  Historically speaking, heavy 2-H weapons almost always cause internal damage if they hit anywhere on the torso, no matter the armor the opponent is wearing; they're pretty much incapacitated, and the fight is over (ie, 2-H should also have a passive injury threat)

2.  The stronger you are, the faster you are, especially at large-scale body movements.  Like strongman, powerlifting, MMA, track and field, and swinging big-ass mauls and battle axes.  Strong muscle is fast muscle.  (and vice-versa, sprinters are strong/powerful, despite the common misconception) 



So balance issues aside, power athletes WOULD gradually swing a maul/great sword/battle ax faster and faster as their strength goes up.

Even though I did just fine with my 2-H Dwarf Berserker, I do think his speed should have slowly increased as his strength did.

3.  Oh, the the passive stun seems unrealistically low, too

Modifié par Grovermancer, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[WillieStyle]

I don't understand this "utility" argument.

What utility does a 2Handed specced warrior bring?

[Loetek]

I think attack speed should scale up alot faster with two handed weapons buy the amount of strength you have... seriously... if you get a rediculous amount of strength why are you still swinging soooooooo sloooooow

[jivebeaver]

WillieStyle wrote...

I don't understand this "utility" argument.
What utility does a 2Handed specced warrior bring?

I believe they have ~2% chance to stun per hit

[Jhegan]

My 2h warrior controls the battlefield. Pump most points into strength, a decent amount into willpower for more stamina (could always use more stamina), and whatever else you want into con for a few more hp (not hugely important). Loaded with the Blood Dragon Armor I hardly take damage unless it's from ranged or mages. If surrounded, Two-Handed Sweep will knock them down and possibly stun them. Pommel strike is awesome against casters or anybody activating an ability. Powerful Blow or Critical strike do a great deal of damage, almost always stun when they connect, and are faster than auto attack (so engage your abilities immediately after an attack connects or misses). The Sunder abilities hit twice on activation and are extremely useful for debuffing. I always leave Indomitable active so I can never be knocked down or stunned by some surprise fireball. Haven't found it necessary to activate Powerful Swings or Threaten.

Now I'll admit, at lower levels I was worried about the effectiveness, but after I got Two-Handed Sweep, everything turned around and it just got better as I finished off the Two-Handed tier and at about the same time the top row of the warrior tier.

[EDIT] To admit, I'm playing on Hard and I have yet to play any DW characters and find Alistair's S&B less effective overall.  I have found a party of two mages to be more effective at CC but that's in conjunction with my 2h warrior, not opposed to it.  I rely on manual control for my 2h main character and leave everyone else on tactics for the most part.  On my second play through I'll likely be using a DW main and Sten for the 2h abilities.

Modifié par Jhegan, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[F-C]

dont ask a question or look for the answer if you cant accept the reality of it when its given.

[Slayer D]

I went mostly str on my 2h dwarf and found that just about everything else in my party was more USEFUL. Damage is quite useful. Would you rather your target be knocked down or dead? I think dead is a bit better.

My 2h dwarf looked like he had no clue how to wield a 2h weapon and he supposedly was a master. Short of using special attacks, it simply looked like he could barely lift the thing. SERIOUSLY? He's strong as all hell and he can barely swing his weapon? That's when I decided to roll up a DW dwarf. And now nightmare is quite easy.

Not sure why anyone says 2h is better on yellows and oranges, they clearly have not played both. My DW warrior is womping oranges WAY easier than before and I'm on nightmare with my DW, was only normal with my 2h. 2h can't hardly hit an orange, let alone hurt one faster than a DW. I have berserker on both of my warriors and it benefits my DW WAY more. DW has a stun and a knock down. It also has cripple. In short, DW has plenty of utility, perhaps slightly less than 2h. But least they don't take 1/3 of your stam just to use one.

I also trained alistair in DW. Throw my main, him, and zev in the front line and 3 dual sweeps. Everything is dead. My mage just heals and does a crushing prison now and then.

Modifié par Slayer D, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:47 .

[Knut Are Mykland2]

2 handlers can be much better then dualwielding.

1. 2 handlers benefit more from haste, dps wise.

2. 2 handlers are much better vs arcane warriors and other heavy armor targets.

3. 2 handlers usually have much more damage per hit, and usually more HP.

4. 2 handlers really only need strength and constitution and thus are usually better vs damage spells.



Dual wielding is better if you are a rogue, or when you reach level 12 and get to use dual maces.

daggers are currently bugged in that they only give half there stat modifyer to damage.

there dex modifyer is gone.

Dualwielding as a rogue is much better if you are the PC(story quest stat bonuses)



mostly dualwielding is better overall, but 2handled weapons are better vs heavy armor and if you get haste.



Imo rogue/bard/duelist archery is king though, in this game range really does matter.

Range is what really makes mages shine. But imo arcane warriors and mages would be very weak if this game had pvp(4vs4). This game has so many anti mage buff spells/abilities.

All bioware needs to do to nerf mages is to add more templars/mages with dispel.

[Torias]

My two handed weapon using warrior absolutely kicked ass, I'm not sure what problems you guys are complaining about...

Maybe you're doing it wrong?

My definition of "right".

1) Massive Strength and Willpower scores (around 50 strength and 40 willpower near the end).
2) Wear the best armor you can, with lots of bonus stamina and stamina regen.
3) Carry two different weapons, preferably a maul and a either a greatsword or greataxe. Use them on lightly (not-maul) vs heavily (maul) armoured targets if possible.
4) Have Indomitable turned on always, as your only permanent sustainable ability. It's simply fantastic to be have 100% immunity to stun and knockdowns. It means you are in the battle for EVERY second.
5) Have leianna singing the third bardsong with a massive cunning bonus
6) Maybe have shale is "stone soul" support mode.

Start battles with the following process:
1) Click on an enemy to attack, this will unsheath your weapon as you run towards them.
2) After your weapon is unsheathed, change the order to a MOVEMENT order to put them in a spot either next to the most dangerous target, or in the middle of a huge clump.
3) Once you are in position, pause and click to activate Perfect Striking.
4) Double tap the space bar to unpause and re-pause as quickly as possible (Perfect Striking activates instantly)
5) click to activate Precise Striking.
6) Double tap the space bar to unpause and re-pause as quickly as possible (Precise Striking activates instantly)
7) If you are ever in a clump of enemies, choose Two Handed Sweep. unpause the game and pause again as soon as it lands.
8) pick the most dangerous target close to you, unleash the following sequence:
a) Sunder Arms (it does normal melee damage twice in quick sucession)
Sunder Armor (I THINK it does normal melee damage twice in quick sucession)
c) Mighty Blow
d) Critical Strike
e) Sunder Arms (AGAIN, with a 10 second cooldown, you're likely to have it ready again near the end of this sequence)
9) At some point in that sequence of 4 you'll have knocked the enemy down to very low health. Once they are on low health, switch your target to the next enemy and have your archer or wizard or other quick auto-attacking party members target the very low health enemy as a kind of "clean up crew". The two handed warrior needs to make every strike count, so there's no point hitting an enemy on only 10% health, let someone else take them out and focus on taking off 40% health from a healthy target.
10) While your abilities are cooling down, start turnning on your non-instant activated sustains (in any order really):
a) Powerful Swings
Rally
c) Berserk
d) Threaten
e) The Warden's Keep sustained ability for warriors.
11) you'll probably only have time to activate one or two of them before some of your abilities have cooled down again, start dishing out your activated abilites as they become available again.
12) Consider using auto-attacks once you've got all the sustained abilities activated, and let your activated abilities cool down to be ready for when Perfect Striking is ready again. You want to have as many activatable abilities ready for use once Perfect Striking is triggered for the SECOND time in the fight.
13) After that second triggering, you'll be on very low stamina, so settle in for the long slog of auto-attacks.. make sure every one of them counts, by targetting the enemies with high enough health that you wont be "overkilling" them... let your cleanup crew deal with the low hp enemies.
14) Also, time your Health Potion popping to ideally be done while you're waiting for activatable abilities to cool down... you want to use Sunder Arms as OFTEN as you can, to really milk the double attack in quick sucession.


Using that approach, my two handed warrior basically dominated the battle field... The key is playing to the strengths, making every swing count, using the activatable abilities as much as possible.

Modifié par Torias, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:16 .

[CreativePhobia]

0mar wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

The game is not balanced, period.  Warriors/Rogues are just there to basically provide banter for the player to hear.  With two decently spec'ed mages, the game is a complete breeze on nightmare.  This is contrasted with my (poorly-built) 2-hander who had difficulty with a single mob on hard.  On nightmare with my mage, I can easily aggro two or three groups and finish them off in half the time.  What took me close to 20 minutes per floor on the Circle quest, I can do in less than 5.  So yea, warriors/rogues need a desperate buff or magic needs to get toned down.

Since when does the game need to be "balanced," and who are you to make that call?

Why should a 2h warrior be considered on a level playing field as a mage? This game has no PVP element. Hell, it's not even multiplayer. Mages are glass cannons. Of course they're supposed to be powerful. Warrirors, however much STR you might want to give them, are distraction elements and cc harriers intended to close distance and pressure casters. This is pretty much tactical analysis 101 of any fantasy setting rpg.

If you want to go and outfit your mage with the largest amounts of stuns, freezes, general debuffs, armor buffing powers, et al, then more power to you. You're certainly not the only one doing it. But don't play the comparison game just because your warrior didn't turn out to be Conan the Barbarian no matter how hard you tried. Doesn't sound like you tried very hard, either.

For the record, I don't agree with "balance" in PVP situations either. Balance is nothing more than an illusion. You're comparing apples to oranges and expecting them to taste the same. Isn't going to happen. That being said, a properly speced Templar/Barbarian can use a 2h and still easily duo the tower with Wynne no matter the difficulty setting.

Modifié par CreativePhobia, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:36 .

[ItmustBeDONE]

I looked at the talent tree for 2h and laughed my ass off at how pathetic it is compared to the others...

Why wouldn't it get a skill to attack faster?

[Skellimancer]

CreativePhobia wrote...

Since when does the game need to be "balanced," and who are you to make that call?

Since a lot of us feel the same way.

Don't worry your precious AW will be safe.

We will just have to wait for modders to fix the "lesser" classes.

[CreativePhobia]

Skellimancer wrote...

CreativePhobia wrote...

Since when does the game need to be "balanced," and who are you to make that call?

Since a lot of us feel the same way.

Don't worry your precious AW will be safe.

We will just have to wait for modders to fix the "lesser" classes.

You're an idiot by presuming I have an AW. Try some reading comprehension.

I'll make this quick for you. I have no problem with AW as it is, because if you want to play the game to be on a power trip, go for it. I'll prefer to sticking to what I feel like playing in the moment rather than rolling something I can dur-hur-hur over being all powerful for a few hours of fantasy a day.

AW is good. Deal with it. Roll one yourself. Revel in it. Do whatever. But don't **** here just because your warrior or rogue can't give you the same experience.

[Skellimancer]

CreativePhobia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

CreativePhobia wrote...

Since when does the game need to be "balanced," and who are you to make that call?

Since a lot of us feel the same way.

Don't worry your precious AW will be safe.

We will just have to wait for modders to fix the "lesser" classes.

You're an idiot by presuming I have an AW. Try some reading comprehension.

I'll make this quick for you. I have no problem with AW as it is, because if you want to play the game to be on a power trip, go for it. I'll prefer to sticking to what I feel like playing in the moment rather than rolling something I can dur-hur-hur over being all powerful for a few hours of fantasy a day.

AW is good. Deal with it. Roll one yourself. Revel in it. Do whatever. But don't **** here just because your warrior or rogue can't give you the same experience.

You going to stop me, internet tough guy? lol

[CreativePhobia]

Skellimancer wrote...

You going to stop me, internet tough guy? lol

No, but I'm going to grace you with another opportunity to humiliate yourself. Otherwise known as the reply button.

[ByakuyaOne]

Yay another thread on a topic already answered by Devs.



They've already said they don't care if two-handed isn't 'balanced' because this is a single player game.



Seriously, why should their be class balance when there's 4 characters controlled by a player at any time. Furthermore you can beat this game using 4 melee on NM/Hard if you really wanted to, this game really isn't so tough that people need to always be whining about 2handed damage.