187 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

CreativePhobia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You going to stop me, internet tough guy? lol

No, but I'm going to grace you with another opportunity to humiliate yourself. Otherwise known as the reply button.

tyvm indeed.

Please continue the discussion.

You don't want balance because?

[CreativePhobia]

Skellimancer wrote...

CreativePhobia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You going to stop me, internet tough guy? lol

No, but I'm going to grace you with another opportunity to humiliate yourself. Otherwise known as the reply button.

tyvm indeed.

Please continue the discussion.

You don't want balance because?

I don't argue with idiots. I just make fun of them.

[DM Veil]

There's no need for balance in single player games, period. The goal is to beat the game and all classes and specs are able to do that so no real need to change anything. If all that matters to you is "owning face" as whatever spec and class your happen to be playing at the time then I'm sorry, you picked the wrong game to spend your money on, but fret not for there are many more games out there to play.

[Skellimancer]

CreativePhobia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

CreativePhobia wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

You going to stop me, internet tough guy? lol

No, but I'm going to grace you with another opportunity to humiliate yourself. Otherwise known as the reply button.

tyvm indeed.

Please continue the discussion.

You don't want balance because?

I don't argue with idiots. I just make fun of them.

Then you are the idiot.

I see you have nothing to add but "HURR DURR MY OPINION MATTERZ!!1!".

[Skellimancer]

DM Veil wrote...

There's no need for balance in single player games, period. The goal is to beat the game and all classes and specs are able to do that so no real need to change anything. If all that matters to you is "owning face" as whatever spec and class your happen to be playing at the time then I'm sorry, you picked the wrong game to spend your money on, but fret not for there are many more games out there to play.

Like counter strike? ammirite?

Same old arguments.

At least there are always mods.

[Zoe Dedweth]

2 weapon fighting is good for fast strikes and applying lots of conditions using paralyze runes. 2 Handed weapons are awesome for taking tough opponents to town. Golems, anything in heavy armor and of course dragons. You get skills that prevent knockdown and stun, and massive armor penetration. Different weapons for different situations.

[ByakuyaOne]

Skellimancer wrote...

DM Veil wrote...

There's no need for balance in single player games, period. The goal is to beat the game and all classes and specs are able to do that so no real need to change anything. If all that matters to you is "owning face" as whatever spec and class your happen to be playing at the time then I'm sorry, you picked the wrong game to spend your money on, but fret not for there are many more games out there to play.

Like counter strike? ammirite?

Same old arguments.

At least there are always mods.

It's people like you who will likely cause DA2 to be a rubbish game, where story comes second to game mechanics. Instead of complaining so much about 2H damage go play with the toolset and fix it yourself to your liking. That's what many have done for their personal experience.

Must be tough for some of the people in this thread crunching out DPS and figuring out max/mins and attack speed ratios. Then of course not realizing all of it is irrelevant since you're playing against AI and AI only.

It's this mod of thinking that's infecting games these days. I really hope Bioware devs totally ignore these types of complaints, least this game become WoW, where mechanics > game experience.

Modifié par ByakuyaOne, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:20 .

[Skellimancer]

ByakuyaOne wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

DM Veil wrote...

There's no need for balance in single player games, period. The goal is to beat the game and all classes and specs are able to do that so no real need to change anything. If all that matters to you is "owning face" as whatever spec and class your happen to be playing at the time then I'm sorry, you picked the wrong game to spend your money on, but fret not for there are many more games out there to play.

Like counter strike? ammirite?

Same old arguments.

At least there are always mods.

It's people like you who will likely cause DA2 to be a rubbish game, where story comes second to game mechanics. Instead of complaining so much about 2H damage go play with the toolset and fix it yourself to your liking. That's what many have done for their personal experience.

Must be tough for some of the people in this thread crunching out DPS and figuring out max/mins and attack speed ratios. Then of course not realizing all of it is irrelevant since you're playing against AI and AI only.

It's this mod of thinking that's infecting games these days. I really hope Bioware devs totally ignore these types of complaints, least this game become WoW, where mechanics > game experience.

Maker forbid that a class should be enjoyable.

How does using a mod make a sequel rubbish?

You guys make me sick.

[Aspar_Hruk]

I don't quite agree with the idea "the game doesn't need to be balanced as it's single player".

Sorry, but no matter what Bioware devs say, i don't buy into it and i will say why.

1. Probably the most important thing in an RPG is immersion and impersonating of the player with his character. Choosing a class that you know is somewhat gimped in effectiveness to some other class, no matter how you build it doesn't contribute to feeling the "hero of the day" and that's what every single RPG since they exist strives for.

2. DPS is not everything in this game. I also don't buy into this, becase DPS IS almost everything in a game where you have to kill your opponents. The greatest feature so far i find in a mage and his brutal power is that the mage has tremendous dps on quick demand - hex - frost/lightning - enemy dead in a matter of seconds, even before his swing is over. So what would i preffer, to control this enemy, stun/knock him down, or just eliminate him from the field? Design rule number one - implementing an ability for the sole purpose of HAVING the ability implemented is a fail and i see several of those in the 2h warrior tree.

3. I (personally) am seriously tired and bored with the lore in every single RPG these days saying "mages are most powerfull". That is getting so LOTResque that it's getting really boring. Even in LOTR where the mages are really powerful and central figures in the plot, the warriors are quite powerful too and questionably even more effective at killing things than the wizards, which are as general more...influencing the battlefield characters with special abilities, but we all remember the raw power of the dwarf, the human and the elf and their efficiency at killing stuff (i mention LOTR because truly this game reminds of it alot...).

4. I don't where that idea sprang from but really...stop making 2h weapons look like you are trying to fight with a 10 ton rail in your hands. In truth 2h swords were quite well balanced, not at all that heavy and fighting with 1h + Shield was really sometimes much more cumbersome and harder than with a 2h. A 2h style allows for some very fluid and connecting one with another movements. Being done by a really strong person, those are quite devastating to EVERY type of armor, not only heavy.

This is a game, not reality of course and it's up to the devs to decide but every game must have some connection with reality to be immersive. A 2h warrior should be amongst main brutal killing powers on the battlefield and not just some waving a big sword "Hello...i am here, don't you see me...doh...i will go cry in the corner" addition to the game.

All that being said, every PC plays better than any AI controlled char and with proper playing and char development i do believe a 2h warrior can be very effective. I currently play one and invest every single point into str and some in willpower, at lvl 13 my warrior has close to 70 str and is literally ripping apart everything with massive damage but i can understand some ppl, to be very effective a 2h warrior needs careful planning and playing unlike mages for example.

It just plays harder and probably that leaves a lot of ppl with the impression it's a gimped class/build.

[DM Veil]

At the end of the day rogues and warriors rely on physical strength and speed to achieve their goals, mages do not. In the setting of Dragon Age magic is very powerful so you'll just have to settle for that fact. Either live with it, mod to fix it for your liking, or stop playing. Already there are mods out there to weaken mages and to respec your companions so that you don't have to use the "gimped" specs if you don't want to.



In the end it doesn't matter if you finished the fight in 10 seconds or 30 seconds so long as you're alive. In my play through I hardly used Morrigan and I still managed to beat the game as a warrior (shocking I know).

[Skellimancer]

DM Veil wrote...

At the end of the day rogues and warriors rely on physical strength and speed to achieve their goals, mages do not. In the setting of Dragon Age magic is very powerful so you'll just have to settle for that fact. Either live with it, mod to fix it for your liking, or stop playing. Already there are mods out there to weaken mages and to respec your companions so that you don't have to use the "gimped" specs if you don't want to.

In the end it doesn't matter if you finished the fight in 10 seconds or 30 seconds so long as you're alive. In my play through I hardly used Morrigan and I still managed to beat the game as a warrior (shocking I know).

I also beat it on nightmare with a warrior, doesn't mean the game is balanced.

But yeah, i know it never will be balanced without mods.

Just gotta wait.

[HawkStrife]

I think 2H has the lowest DPS.

But the best active combat skills (Warrior).



So its balanced.

[ByakuyaOne]

Skellimancer - My first sentence was referring to these types of threads, demanding the Devs be the ones to waste their time balancing classes opposed to crafting the game experience. I was not addressing mods. As for all classes being enjoyable, that's really never going to happen. What you call a perfect balance isn't going to be the same for everyone, in fact these types of threads are likely to ruin another players experience.



I find the game as it is pretty much fine, I'd naturally prefer if AI was alot tougher and if they removed forcefield, but hey at suggestion from another player I used the toolset and changed the AI around. I also don't use forcefield at all by choice.



Aspar_Hruk - My rogues and warriors do more damage then my mages at high level (20+) on NM difficulty due to resistances. I also added a mod that increases innate resist of all NPC monsters by 25% because it was still abit to easy. But ya, in end game Lelianna was able to take down orange mops in seconds with assassinate and death hex.

[0mar]

ByakuyaOne wrote...

It's people like you who will likely cause DA2 to be a rubbish game, where story comes second to game mechanics. Instead of complaining so much about 2H damage go play with the toolset and fix it yourself to your liking. That's what many have done for their personal experience.

Please, the lore in this game is not even consistent.  You should not be able to use blood mage abilities willy-nilly and have no consequence for this.  To be consistent with the lore, the following would have to happen to any mage, but especially blood mages.

1.  Whenever you camp, there's a chance that a demon breaks through the veil, possess your character and ends your game.

2.  Whenever you camp, 50 templars show up and holy smite your mage into oblivion.

3.  After you use blood mage abilities, all the good-aligned characters should immediately leave and actively work to destroy you.

4.  After constant use of lyrium potions, you should be reduced to a blubbering idiot due to lyrium addiction.


Then the game would be consistent with the lore with respect to mages.  After all, if mages being overpowered is in the lore, then their downsides should be as well.  Will it make for a fun game?  I doubt it.

Secondly, the point of balance is not to make everyone equal but for everyone to contribute to a battle in an equal manner.  If a mage is built for damage, he/she should not be able to crowd control or heal as efficiently.  It doesn't work that way, because a mage can built for all 3 major roles in this game.  Every class/specialization should have a role in battle.

Modifié par 0mar, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:57 .

[Fluffykeith]

"I know bunches of guys who do (full contact stuff, not the nerf Darkon stuff)

I also know a LOT of world-class and (literally) Olympic caliber sports and strength trainers.


2 points:

1.  Historically speaking, heavy 2-H weapons almost always cause internal damage if they hit anywhere on the torso, no matter the armor the opponent is wearing; they're pretty much incapacitated, and the fight is over (ie, 2-H should also have a passive injury threat)

2.  The stronger you are, the faster you are, especially at large-scale body movements.  Like strongman, powerlifting, MMA, track and field, and swinging big-ass mauls and battle axes.  Strong muscle is fast muscle.  (and vice-versa, sprinters are strong/powerful, despite the common misconception)  "

Yes. I was talking about full contact stuff, not LARP, since LARP weapons can't be compared to real ones in terms of weight or momentum. I was meaning more like the Dawn Duelists re-enectment team here in Edinburgh, who have been known to go at each other with battle-axes at displays and so on.

I like the idea of the passive injury threat....nice idea....

Thing is, looking at the greatswords in this game, they look a lot like germanic Zweihanders to me, and if i remember right those had to be wielded using specific stances, Swing, reset stance, swing, reset stance, swing....etc. We're talking about a weapon that was roughly 6 feet long. Thats going to have a lot of momentum. Im no power athlete, but having been shown the use of one, one thing I know is that a lot of your strength goes into preventing that momentum from swinging the damn thing too far and throwing the user off balance.

"I don't understand this "utility" argument.

What utility does a 2Handed specced warrior bring? "

Pommel Strike - Knockdown,
Indomitable - bonus to damage, immune to stuns and knockdowns
Stunning Blows - Passive chance to stun per hit
Critical Strike - Auto-crit attack that also autokills non-boss mobs if theyre on 20% or less health
Sunder Arms - Normal damage and attack debuff, doesnt interrupt auto-attack so you get 2 swings in effect
Sunder Armour - Normal Damage and Armour debuff, doesnt interrupt  auto-attack, just like Sunder Arms
Destroyer - Passive chance to debuff armour oer hit
Mighty Blow - Autocrit.
Two Handed Sweep - AOE attack that does normal damage and can knockdown

Um...there you go...thats a lot of utility right there. If you have an ounce of sense and remember to put point into Willpower so you actually have some stamina, a 2hander can dominate a melee with those abilities. I play a melee focused group (My 2hander, Alistair, Wynne and either Leliana or Oghren at present), and I never worry if Im getting attacked 2 or 3 to 1, because I know that most of those mobs will spend most of their time on their arses, debuffed or getting critted in the face.

[GODzilla]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

If the game was balanced purely by DPS, that might be true - albeit it is not.

True, the game is not balanced and it shouldn't be, because it's an RPG, not an RTS or RTT game. "Roleplaying" sometimes means that you play a role simply for the fun of it, although knowing it is not as strong as other roles.

For instance you could say that mages in this game are WAY overpowered. Morrigan rose up from about 10% party damage to 32%. She already left behind my main character, who started with 46% and then droped to 31% due to Morrigans "rising".

But this is absolutely okay. Or would someone ask for most for her spells to be weakened with a coming patch? No, but instead one can "roleplay", meaning the player can decide whether to use her powers, or not.

Things start to get funny though when people say they cannot control themselves. Well, good luck in the real world then.

[Skellimancer]

ByakuyaOne wrote...


I find the game as it is pretty much fine, I'd naturally prefer if AI was alot tougher and if they removed forcefield, but hey at suggestion from another player I used the toolset and changed the AI around. I also don't use forcefield at all by choice.

AI mods would be welcomed. :happy:

Forcefield duration is way to long, yes. There are a lot  of unbalanced spells such as Mana Clash which make templers pointless.

I am not after seeing Mages gimped, but at least give other classes some goddamn feeling of usefullness.

Oh and i have Leiana use Arrows of Slaying mixed with stealth Pretty awesome.

[hexaligned]

You people act like the story in this game is a work of literary art or something. It's generic but entertaining enough to keep me interested, and that's about it. Believe me I would LOVE if the story was actually as complex and worthwhile as some of you seem to think it is. I don't see why if thats all you are interested in, you wouldn't just read an actual well written book.



I havn't seen anyone arguing that they want balance in the game so they can "OMGPAWN" it, they want it so that the combat can't be reduced to such a trivial state a well trained monkey could beat it. That's not a unreasonable expectation to have, especially seeing how this game was touted as a tactical masterpiece.



If instead Bioware had come out and said "Yeah.. you can just throw talent and stat points willynilly and still faceroll the hardest difficulty" Those of us who actually enjoy challenges in our hobbies would have prob just found something else to spend our 60 bones on.

[ByakuyaOne]

0mar wrote...

Please, the lore in this game is not even consistent.  You should not be able to use blood mage abilities willy-nilly and have no consequence for this.  To be consistent with the lore, the following would have to happen to any mage, but especially blood mages.

1.  Whenever you camp, there's a chance that a demon breaks through the veil, possess your character and ends your game.

2.  Whenever you camp, 50 templars show up and holy smite your mage into oblivion.

3.  After you use blood mage abilities, all the good-aligned characters should immediately leave and actively work to destroy you.

4.  After constant use of lyrium potions, you should be reduced to a blubbering idiot due to lyrium addiction.


Then the game would be consistent with the lore with respect to mages.  After all, if mages being overpowered is in the lore, then their downsides should be as well.  Will it make for a fun game?  I doubt it.

Secondly, the point of balance is not to make everyone equal but for everyone to contribute to a battle in an equal manner.  If a mage is built for damage, he/she should not be able to crowd control or heal as efficiently.  It doesn't work that way, because a mage can built for all 3 major roles in this game.  Every class/specialization should have a role in battle.

I totally agree with you. Mages are far to powerful and effectively a 'jack of all trades'. However since this is a single player game then couldn't you tailor your own experience to reflect only 1 role? For instance going full DPS and not picking up the CC skills. Just because a class CAN be built in a certain way doesn't mean you HAVE to build it. Eg. I don't use paralyze or forcefield at all with my mages. 

On a personal note though, I would really have loved to see real consequences for picking Blood mage. Like the Circle trying to hunt down my char for using it etc. Hence why I would prefer Devs to focus on the experience not on the class balancing.

[Bahanime]

2H talents do not add anymore utility than archery, s/s or DW. They all get their CC moves being stuns or knockdowns. DW & s/s actually gets a stun + dmg move whereas 2H has a knockdown that does no dmg and is slow to execute delaying the next hit. Does it matter in singleplayer? Not really, you can beat the game regardless. So bioware isnt going to bother rebalancing the game. Mages and DW will remain OP.



If you dont like it, that's what my mod is for.

http://social.bioware.com/project/852/

[Skellimancer]

Bahanime wrote...

2H talents do not add anymore utility than archery, s/s or DW. They all get their CC moves being stuns or knockdowns. DW & s/s actually gets a stun + dmg move whereas 2H has a knockdown that does no dmg and is slow to execute delaying the next hit. Does it matter in singleplayer? Not really, you can beat the game regardless. So bioware isnt going to bother rebalancing the game. Mages and DW will remain OP.

If you dont like it, that's what my mod is for.
http://social.bioware.com/project/852/

:happy: Will give this a try!

[Suron]

neverdavis2009 wrote...


Now there is a nice DEX hotfix from Bioware for daggers and bows. So I call for a hotfix that makes TH a bit stronger too.

while I agree 2h needs some tweaking...the dex HOTFIX was put in because of a BUG...2h, at least as far as we know, is working as intended...there is no such thing as a HOTFIX for something that's working...

that said..2h does seem to be a hair too slow...speed that up a HAIR...and, as a personal preference, I think the animations need changed on normal swings...those animations are ok for Mauls...but not all 2h weapons (actually most don't) weigh 200lbs (obviously an exxageration but you get the point) and our toons shouldn't look like they're swinging something that's 3x their weight...actually most 2h weapons can easily be HELD in one hand without issue (with it's weight).but are 2h cause you need 2h to properly use it cause they're so bulky...greatswords for example could weigh as little as 7lbs..but they're bulky

[FFTARoxorz05]

How are you people beating the game without sunder arms and pommel strike? I could care less about "dps" since this isn't WoW, its a strategy game.

[Itkovian]

While the attack speed for 2h weapons is indeed very slow compared to RL, fact is that's the case for every single weapon style in the game anyway (which goes for a more cinematic approach than realistic - in reality, only drunk fighters swing like in the movies *grin*), so that point is irrelevant (since everything is on an equal footing, as it were).

That said, as has been said before two handed weapons are not strictly about DPS, but also debuffs and CC, for which they excel. However, they ARE a DPS build when it comes to fighting armoured opponents. With their higher armour penetration and armour debuffs, a lot more of their potential damage makes it through their target's armour, compared to 2w style (which is less efficient, as their total DPS is reduced by armour twice).

When taking these factors into consideration, no, 2h weapons don't need fixing.

I must admit though, I do find it amusing when I see "rebalancing" threads on these forums - it all looks like posts you'd find on the WoW forums or the likes.

Itkovian

[FFTARoxorz05]

I must admit though, I do find it amusing when I see "rebalancing" threads on these forums - it all looks like posts you'd find on the WoW forums or the likes.

Yeah it is weird, people act like A. the game is hard and B. that theres some sort of competition involved.  I'm probably bumping the game up to Hard so I can quit destroying encounters without any input.