181 réponses à ce sujet

[Melness]

Vit246 wrote...

I don't want some sort of "dominant personality" where I have to be all the way Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive all the time to everything. That's just one-dimensional to me. And I don't want the game to punish me by locking me out of certain dialogue options because it thinks I'm don't have enough Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive "points". Basically, I don't want the ME2 dialogue system.

That's not what happens. The game even encourages you to change your dominant personality by not blocking options and allowing easying things between arcs.

[In Exile]

Koiruoho wrote...

Yeah, I don't mean I was constantly hanging my head in shame or anything and I thoroughly enjoyed the voiced protagonist of the ME series and do prefer that over the mute Warden. Just that sometimes I'd choose some option that seemed like a bit of a 'no nonsense' option but instead Shepard sounded like he/she was 2 steps away from ripping Joker's head off. Although I sort of remember this particular episode happened with a femshep.

I think we see these moments rather when there is some action/decision. Like going south.

A 'charming' Hawke would say: "If the choices are south or die, I choose south." wheras 'diplomatic' Hawke says "The darkspawn have us boxed in. We go south."

Different flavours, to show a taste of what Hawke's "default" mindset is.

The idea being, if you're aggresive and push comes to shove, you're going to be aggressive.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I do have a concern with the dominant personality system. If there is an in-game event which dramatically and suddenly changes my character's view of something (like the KotOR revelation, or killing Connor), I would like his behaviour to shift immediately as well, and apparently that won't happen.

Actually, you can. Action choices are separate from "personality" choices and expression.

This makes sense. A particular event might shake your beliefs, but at least realistically, it will not change someone's personality wholesale.

So if you were to play a diplomatic and pragmatic Hawke, and maybe an NPC dies that you feel Hawke ought to care about, you could switch from a pragmatist to a sadism or naive hero (depending how much the game allows it). What doesn't change (except slowly) is how Hawke will express hismelf or herself.

[RPGamer13]

Melness wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

I don't want some sort of "dominant personality" where I have to be all the way Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive all the time to everything. That's just one-dimensional to me. And I don't want the game to punish me by locking me out of certain dialogue options because it thinks I'm don't have enough Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive "points". Basically, I don't want the ME2 dialogue system.

That's not what happens. The game even encourages you to change your dominant personality by not blocking options and allowing easying things between arcs.

I believe he's actually talking about what Stanley Woo posted in what was linked to: according to him, choosing the same tone 5 times in a row means if you encounter a dialog where that dominant personality gets a star, the star dialog will show up in addition to the normal options.  However, if you never choose 5 of the same tone in a row when presented, then a star will never show up for you.

And it sounds like the poster feels like he's being cheated that way and discourages him from playing how he wants if he wants to see any of the special dialog options

AyraWinla wrote...

If I understand this right...

A Diplomatic character picking an aggressive option might say: "Please leave now."
and an Aggressive character picking the same aggressive option might say: "Leave or I rip your head off!!"

Correct?

That's exactly how I would imagine it after Maria Caliban's insight.

Filament wrote...

So this is taken from a strategy guide, not the manual?

Yes, the strategy guide.  Manuals now adays seem to leave out information like this that I would find critical to put in a manual.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

This makes sense. A particular event might shake your beliefs, but at least realistically, it will not change someone's personality wholesale.

Hos personality?  No.  His demeanour?  Absolutely.

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote..
Obviously, tracking your dominant personality with each sort of faction (or even lumping every character into a specific faction) is more work, and not really a perfect solution, but it seems like it would help to avoid some of the pitfalls of the dominant personality system.

This would be more realistic. But aside from it being more work, I think a lot of people have a (mistaken, at least empirically speaking) intuition that people are the same re: their personality in all sitautions. In fact, situations moderate personality.

Of course, I'd prefer my character never have to rely on a dominant personality for things, but that's neither here nor there.

I like the system. It makes people more real, insofar as people are tied down by lots of cognitive weight (like a default mode of expression). This is the difference between someone who is naturally shy but works at standing up for themselves and someone naturally aggresive.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Hos personality?  No.  His demeanour?  Absolutely.

Right. But expression (i.e. defaulting to sarcasm or cooperation) is not a part of demeanour except in layman psychology. There is a significant amount of research that shows that personality and terperment are largely fixed and very difficult to change.

Now DA2 is unrealistic (as Valerion mentioned) in that real personalities are situationally expressed. So I might be confident in person, but shy on the phone (maybe because I cannot look someone in the eye) or in writing (because I am not confident in my writing skills).

Still, at least prima facie the DA2 system will allow us to switch from, say, naive (let the slavers go) to ruthless (kill them all) if we encounter a particular lifechanging event.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I like the system. It makes people more real, insofar as people are tied down by lots of cognitive weight (like a default mode of expression). This is the difference between someone who is naturally shy but works at standing up for themselves and someone naturally aggresive.

Given players direct control would allow them to keep their characters "more real" by your standard, or by any other standard they happen to prefer.

If my character is consistently choosing one dialogue type for a reason BiOWare didn't foresee, this dominant ysstem might badly misjudge my character.

At some point I'm sure I'll try to break it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Right. But expression (i.e. defaulting to sarcasm or cooperation) is not a part of demeanour except in layman psychology. There is a significant amount of research that shows that personality and terperment are largely fixed and very difficult to change.

Recall the KotOR revelation.  My first character through that was generally cooperative with the jedi, though he wasn't very trusting generally.  But he was pleasant and polite, because that's just the sort of person he was.

And as soon as the revelation happened, he saw the jedi as his enemy, and the enemy of all free people.  He could not contain his vitriol (which wasn't new to his personality, but there'd been no opportunity to exhibit that behaviur previously).  In an instant, he was nothing but violently belligerent toward them.

And that the game allowed that to happen is the biggest reason why I think it was a great game.  If DA2's dominant personality system mitigates that change at all, that could be a significant problem.

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote..
Obviously, tracking your dominant personality with each sort of faction (or even lumping every character into a specific faction) is more work, and not really a perfect solution, but it seems like it would help to avoid some of the pitfalls of the dominant personality system.

This would be more realistic. But aside from it being more work, I think a lot of people have a (mistaken, at least empirically speaking) intuition that people are the same re: their personality in all sitautions. In fact, situations moderate personality.

I'm not really sure how people can think that, but I'm not denying that they do.  I'd think most people would just have to think how they act around their parents, for example, and how they act when their parents aren't around, to see how situation effects personality.

Of course, I'd prefer my character never have to rely on a dominant personality for things, but that's neither here nor there.

I like the system. It makes people more real, insofar as people are tied down by lots of cognitive weight (like a default mode of expression). This is the difference between someone who is naturally shy but works at standing up for themselves and someone naturally aggresive.

Like I said, my objection to it is that I'm worried that it will cause me to behave incorrectly towards certain people/groups of people.  We'll have to see when the full game comes out, but if my mage Hawke who blames Templars for his father's death and his family's situation, but is generally a nice guy, starts being pleasant to Templars, it's going to be a seriously character-breaking moment.

[Maria Caliban]

Vit246 wrote...

I don't want some sort of "dominant personality" where I have to be all the way Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive all the time to everything.

Then don't be.

And I don't want the game to punish me by locking me out of certain dialogue options because it thinks I'm don't have enough Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive "points".

You will sometimes get extra dialogue based on your dominant personality. These don't do anything, however. It's not a case where you can't convince Miranda and Subject Zero to stop fighting because you're not diplomatic enough. It's not that you need X level of aggressiveness to convince Wrex to stand down.

Humorous Hawke will sometimes have a joke available that diplomatic and aggressive Hawke don't have.

Basically, I don't want the ME2 dialogue system.

It's not. It's quite a bit different.

[panamakira]

I want Lady Hawke to be humorous and charming but I also want her to a bit more diplomat. Hmmm~

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

Still, at least prima facie the DA2 system will allow us to switch from, say, naive (let the slavers go) to ruthless (kill them all) if we encounter a particular lifechanging event.

The dialogue options control your tone. Other aspects of your personality, like whether you kill slavers or not, is something totally different. It's not switched because it's never set.

[Vicious]

Wow really? I read stuff like

I want Lady Hawke to be humorous and charming but I also want her to a bit more diplomat.

Nothing is stopping you from doing that. In fact, you lose absolutely nothing except some dialogue option that might pop up, in which case you'll get a different option instead.


People are acting like this shoehorns them the way Paragon/Renegade does. It doesn't, it just changes your dialogue and if your character intimidates/charms/persuades his way through stickier situations.

It seems to me the main problem people have is they want to have ALL the options available. I can understand that, but it's not a horrific loss.

[GameBoyish]

Please please please Varric will have a fling achievement-less romance...

[Melness]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Right. But expression (i.e. defaulting to sarcasm or cooperation) is not a part of demeanour except in layman psychology. There is a significant amount of research that shows that personality and terperment are largely fixed and very difficult to change.

Recall the KotOR revelation.  My first character through that was generally cooperative with the jedi, though he wasn't very trusting generally.  But he was pleasant and polite, because that's just the sort of person he was.

And as soon as the revelation happened, he saw the jedi as his enemy, and the enemy of all free people.  He could not contain his vitriol (which wasn't new to his personality, but there'd been no opportunity to exhibit that behaviur previously).  In an instant, he was nothing but violently belligerent toward them.

And that the game allowed that to happen is the biggest reason why I think it was a great game.  If DA2's dominant personality system mitigates that change at all, that could be a significant problem.

I wouldn't worry so much about that, the guides directly claim that such changes are encourage in-between arcs (which should be where 'revelations' happen, I suppose).

[Emzamination]

Smart mouthed hawke all the way bay bay. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Melness wrote...

I wouldn't worry so much about that, the guides directly claim that such changes are encourage in-between arcs (which should be where 'revelations' happen, I suppose).

I think they'd be more dramatic if we could react immediately, but that will ultimately depend on how they're written.

[GameBoyish]

I like doing a combo of aggressive and humourous. I did stack a combo in the demo. Started with aggressive then proceeded to snark. I LOVE IT! Only certain situations call for green/blue. Like Mum Hawke and Aveline... UGH CAN'T WAIT

[hekalite]

I don't like the sound of this.  I don't think it's too unreasonable to be nice to some people, diplomatic with others and even aggressive to some.  Why should that make my Hawke act like a schizophrenic freak?  With only three basic personality choices and no opportunity for shades of gray, why not just pick one at the start of each chapter and let Hawke talk for you.  I know we can't have endless choices, but to me it just seems to remove the last remaining illusion of choice that you aren't just along for the ride.

[IRMcGhee]

Saibh wrote...

It seems to me this list is a tad inaccurate. I would not have described the diamond option as Charming as it was seen in the demo. The gavel, to me, seemed serious and pragmatic, not "Direct".

I'd have went with Hard for the diamond and Practical for the hammer myself, from what I heard in the demo. Whatever. I don't care what they call them as long as I know which tone the game intends them to be, which is clear enough. 

[IRMcGhee]

hekalite wrote...

I don't like the sound of this.  I don't think it's too unreasonable to be nice to some people, diplomatic with others and even aggressive to some.  Why should that make my Hawke act like a schizophrenic freak?  With only three basic personality choices and no opportunity for shades of gray, why not just pick one at the start of each chapter and let Hawke talk for you.  I know we can't have endless choices, but to me it just seems to remove the last remaining illusion of choice that you aren't just along for the ride.

How is it removing choice ? I don't really get what you mean by that. All it's really doing is making the dialogue outside of conversations consistent with how you've been playing your character. You're still free to pick any tone you like in conversation. Picking a couple of lines diametrically opposed in tone to what you've been generally picking, if you deem it appropriate, isn't suddenly going to make your character change it's dominant personality.

[IronVanguard]

That bit on personality and tone actually sounds rather cool. I can't wait to see it in action.

[Sylvius the Mad]

IRMcGhee wrote...

How is it removing choice ? I don't really get what you mean by that. All it's really doing is making the dialogue outside of conversations consistent with how you've been playing your character.

It's consistent with how I've been playing the character according to BioWare.  If I happen to disagree, I'm out of luck.

And the removal of choice is clear in how you just described it.  Yes, they're making an effort to keep dialogue that falls outside of conversations consistent with the options you've actually chosen, but the best way to ensure that would be not to have any dialogue fall outside conversations, and just give us control of all of it rather than having the game guess.

Picking a couple of lines diametrically opposed in tone to what you've been generally picking, if you deem it appropriate, isn't suddenly going to make your character change it's dominant personality.

That won't, no, but what if the game misidentifies the dominant personality?  If I'm selecting dialogue options based on some criterion the writers didn't foresee, the game can't possibly accurately predict which tone I would want in some unrelated situation.  "Being nice" or "being sarcastic" isn't much of a personality description.  As Vaeliorin points out, I might be consistently nice to one group of people and consistently aggressive toward another - and do both of those for the same reason.  If the game makes my character behave incorrectly at either group, the game has failed.

This is why the game shouldn't ever have my characters act without my explicit direction.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[Wintersbreath]

If I am diplomatic and a Templar killed Bethany and I chiose the aggressive option, it'd better not come out as "Leave this instance!" instead of "I'll kill you, bastard!"