264 réponses à ce sujet

[Underoath]

First thing,please stay civil.......you can go on a crusade against the chantry in the game it appears so relax and answer with temperance.

Now before you all start going off (which inevitably some of you will despite my plea for temperance) about how the chantry is full of religious zelots who persecute everyone, do not have the capacity to reason, and are unreasonable fools who should go die in a cold forgotten corner let me explain more fully what I'm asking.

I want to know what would keep the mages in check (not enslaved) from enslaving/killing just as many people as the chantry. You could of course just go with the mages b/c of an "anything has to better than the chantry" view, but that doesn't seem to be very, ahh, reasonable.

And as people ruled by reason surely we'd want to make the calm, cool, collected, logical, and reasonable choice despite our feelings if we are given such a choice in the game, yes?

Basically, I want to know what will keep the mages from ending up right where the chantry is. You may like mages better than the chantry (I know I certainly do), but that doesn't make the enslaving/killing any more right if that is what mages do.

Modifié par Underoath, 03 mars 2011 - 09:42 .

[Sarielle]

Well...it depends on whether you're a mage or not, doesn't it? 8) Whether you consider it better?

Modifié par Sarielle, 03 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[Taleroth]

I don't consider FUD an argument for violations of human rights. YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WON'T is not a position. It's fearmongering.

It's also historically absurd. Freeing the oppressed has pretty much never ended up turning the tables with the oppressed as the oppressive dictators.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 07:38 .

[Rawgrim]

The chantry are religious freaks. You need only look at our own history to see how it goes when people like that get enough power.

[Iberius]

Sarielle wrote...

Well...it depends on whether you're a mage or not, doesn't it? 8) Whether you consider it better?

I would agree with this. But I mean I doubt you'll get a choice if the chantry falls or not. The demo makes it look like it has already fallen.

I do see your point though the mages could just take over and be as bad as the chantry but that would make for a rather lame story imo. I would question whether either ever gets into "total power".

[SgtElias]

Taleroth wrote...

I don't consider FUD an argument for violations of human rights. YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WON'T is not a position. It's fearmongering.

It's also historically absurd. Freeing the oppressed has pretty much never ended up turning the tables with the oppressed as the oppressive dictators.

This.

[Vicious]

And as people ruled by reason

I lol'ed. A person may be ruled by reason. People never are.

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

Sterilize all mages reducing their numbers then take chantry out

Proper solution is listed above

[dam0dred]

Mages can police themselves. There will always be people like Irving and Wynne around to keep the trouble makers in order.

Death to the chantry.

[Rasputin]

Right now the Chantry only over-sees the Mages (with the Templar)... I guess in DA2 we are going to get DEEP into this subject... but the opression I saw in DA:O seemed to stem from the Lords/Nobles against the serfs/indentured servants/elves...

In DA:O it seemed like a necessary evil put in place due to the crazy history of mages weilding so much power and ruling.... There is a fatal flaw in the Chantry's logic because if they believe power currupts, they should also be sending Templars to over-see Noble rule as well - I'm sure that would go over well with the Nobility of each area...

EDIT: Also, its a moot point because everyone knows now that mages only bring ham....

Modifié par Rasputin, 03 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[Purgatious]

Mages are superior being. Its not like the chantry can keep them in a cage forever.

[Eveangaline]

The mages don't really have a reason to enslave anyone. Yes, the tevinter imperium did, but that was more because their culture said that power meant you could rule other places, and magic was power. Orleis did the same thing, only without magic, when they controlled ferelden.

The dalish aren't enslaved by mages, despite not having the chantry. They do just fine. There's no reason their methods wouldn't work for humans as well.

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

dam0dred wrote...

Mages can police themselves. There will always be people like Irving and Wynne around to keep the trouble makers in order.

Death to the chantry.

would wynne be like that if the chantry had not been there to teach her the dangers of blood magic?

For every wynne protecting 5 mages there is an Uldred killing 100 along with 1000 innocents.

[M-Taylor]

Rawgrim wrote...

The chantry are religious freaks. You need only look at our own history to see how it goes when people like that get enough power.

You can't apply real life situations into a very non-real life scenario. It doesn't work. I mean, when Religion was the authority in the real world, was there mages running around that could very easily destroy a village should s/he want too?

I think people take against the Chantry for the simple fact that the Western World abhours dictatorship. However, the Western World does not have to factor in humans with abnormal powers. I think the Chantry is a needed system simply because of this fact.

[Iberius]

Taleroth wrote...

I don't consider FUD an argument for violations of human rights. YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WON'T is not a position. It's fearmongering.

It's also historically absurd. Freeing the oppressed has pretty much never ended up turning the tables with the oppressed as the oppressive dictators.

I would agree with you about our world's history. However, our world has never had a magically oppressed people freed. Mage have lots of power. Call it fearmongering if you will but the poster is making a viable point.

[SnowHeart1]

dam0dred wrote...

Mages can police themselves. There will always be people like Irving and Wynne around to keep the trouble makers in order.

Death to the chantry.

This is basically my feeling. Mages will police themselves and, if they fail (as did the Tevintir Imperium) the people will rise up in revolution. Thedas has basically gone from one extreme to another. Neither extreme is good and there's a false dichotomy that it has to be one or the other in terms of who is ruling.

The only thing I would change is the Death to the Chantry part... Many and perhaps most members of the Chantry are probably well-intention, "good" people. I just find the institution and what it does to elves and mages to be evil. So, I would remove it from power, but not kill its followers (not all of them, anyway).

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 03 mars 2011 - 07:48 .

[Covi]

They should be policed by an organization that doesn't see them as inherently evil for having magical talent. You can't ignore the danger, though.

[Insom]

The chantry is the lesser of two evils. Hate them all you want but they cannot make multiple peoples blood boil inside of them at the snap of their fingers.

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

dam0dred wrote...

Mages can police themselves. There will always be people like Irving and Wynne around to keep the trouble makers in order.

Death to the chantry.

This is basically my feeling. Mages will police themselves and, if they fail (as did the Tevintir Imperium) the people will rise up in revolution. Thedas has basically gone from one extreme to another. Neither extreme is good and there's a false dichotomy that it has to be one or the other in terms of who is ruling. 

What if the people don't have the force to lead a revolution?mages aren't push overs. And blood magic is more powerful than any other giving them the advantage over good mages.

What if in a last ditch effort the Mage overlords decide to summon demons to destroy everything rather than give up power?

100 enslaved mages>1000000 Enslaved innocents.

[frostserpant]

The main difference is that the chantry would descriminate against mages and non believers and the mages would not descriminate against anyone.

[SnowHeart1]

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

What if the people don't have the force to lead a revolution?mages aren't push overs. And blood magic is more powerful than any other giving them the advantage over good mages.

What if in a last ditch effort the Mage overlords decide to summon demons to destroy everything rather than give up power?

100 enslaved mages>1000000 Enslaved innocents.

Except they did. Thedas history and the revolution against the Imperium shows that they did. 

[Canadish]

Yeah...comparing Mages to real life minorities does not hold up under scrutiny.
Oppressed minorities do not have the ability to brain control the rest of the population.
Hell, even shooting fire balls from fingertips is enough.
That's the reason the matter is much more Grey then it would be in a real life situation.
Do you Oppress a small number in order to protect the Masses from Oppression?

[Drowsy0106]

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

100 enslaved mages>1000000 Enslaved innocents.

My Warden would give up her best shoes to witness such a magnificent event 

[Taleroth]

Iberius wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

I don't consider FUD an argument for violations of human rights. YOU DON'T KNOW THEY WON'T is not a position. It's fearmongering.

It's also historically absurd. Freeing the oppressed has pretty much never ended up turning the tables with the oppressed as the oppressive dictators.

I would agree with you about our world's history. However, our world has never had a magically oppressed people freed. Mage have lots of power. Call it fearmongering if you will but the poster is making a viable point.

They apparently don't even have enough power to free themselves.  Conquering the world is a bit harder.

The number one problem with this thinking is treating them as a coherent group.  The same things that can oppress a people can be used to keep them in line.  Freed mages does not mean that the knowledge to create Templars and that mages sympathetic to the needs of non-mages go extinct.

[Kolos2]

what you need is an organisation like Cowled Wizards in BG2.

Same role as the Chantry, "to find and destroy "deviant" wizards and sorcerers," but since thy work separate from an religious or an gouverment organisation and thy are in fact magic users it gives them a degree of objectivity
And prison is rather a better punisment that death

and a ban of any harmfull spells within countrys borders

Modifié par Kolos2, 03 mars 2011 - 07:56 .