264 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

lx_theo wrote...

They should be self-governed at the very least.

Chantry sees them as evil, and hinders any sort of progress they wish for. A government would abuse the mage's power. It just needs a strong counter threat to make sure they don't get any thoughts of taking everyone else out and taking power.

They have, they're called the Templars.

[Xewaka]

If the former Tevinter Empire is any indication, Ruling mage caste would be worse.

Modifié par Xewaka, 04 mars 2011 - 12:42 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

If the former Tevinter Empire is any indication, Ruling mage caste would be worse.

Not for the mages.

[mesmerizedish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If the former Tevinter Empire is any indication, Ruling mage caste would be worse.

Not for the mages.

Indeed

Also, the debauchery and excess of Tevinter, I think, doesn't have much to do with the fact that they were mages specifically. It was just that they had the power, and they wielded that power to achieve dominance. The Chantry has done the same thing outside the Imperium. Any dominant group will do what it has to to maintain dominance.

[Xewaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
If the former Tevinter Empire is any indication, Ruling mage caste would be worse.

Not for the mages.

Even for the mages, unless part of the privileged caste. I'll have to recheck my facts to be completely sure, but as far as I recall, a non-magister mage was in a worse legal position than an Apostate.

[KallDay]

Xewaka wrote...

If the former Tevinter Empire is any indication, Ruling mage caste would be worse.

Even the Tevinterian ruins scattered around were more glorious than the dumpy Ferelden "civilization."

[phantomdragoness]

Any oppressed people will eventually rise up and think they can do better "ruling," but I think most Mages just want to be free of the Chantry and not rule over Thedas. Also, the Chantry sees Mages as one group of people practicing Blood Magic or fraternizing with demons. This prejudice gives them more reason to start a revolution. What happened in the Circle Tower in DAO was only the start. The Chantry had a right to crack down after the fall of Tevinter, but I do believe it has gone on long enough. Heck, the Circle Tower should be like Hogwarts. lol

[TheCreeper]

What we need is magicommunism.

[PPF65]

It wouldn't be better to have mages ruling instead of the chantry, because then the mages would have absolute power instead of the chantry.

The best solution would be to keep the government seperate and then create a kind of "nuclear deterant" kind of thing going on with the mages.

Create 2 different mage "schools", like the circle but not treated like monsters, and have them compete with one another for young prospective mages and political influence. Then, if one of the schools gets out of hand, the government and the chantry can convice the other to help out, and both mage schools know this. Therefore, the mages would avoid doing something that could harm people, knowing that the other schools would, temporarily, be given free reign to blast them into ashes with fireballs.

[Purgatious]

The thing is, if mages rested control from the templars and got together, there would be very little to stop them, unless you've got another maker-blessed holy messiah and an endless army of chasind/dalish/others to keep them in line.

[PPF65]

Purgatious wrote...

The thing is, if mages rested control from the templars and got together, there would be very little to stop them, unless you've got another maker-blessed holy messiah and an endless army of chasind/dalish/others to keep them in line.

Create 2 (rival) mage factions. If either one gets out of hand, side with the other.

Modifié par PPF65, 04 mars 2011 - 01:15 .

[Aesieru]

Ruling mage COUNCIL without evil intentions would probably work well.

[Tomark]

PPF65 wrote...

Purgatious wrote...

The thing is, if mages rested control from the templars and got together, there would be very little to stop them, unless you've got another maker-blessed holy messiah and an endless army of chasind/dalish/others to keep them in line.

Create 2 (rival) mage factions. If either one gets out of hand, side with the other.

that, and mages are squishy.

I mean, it's been pretty obvious mages can be killed relatively easily by pretty much any sufficiently powerful rogue or warrior, so it doesn't really matter.

The only difference is mage's power is "unseen", so it makes it scarier.

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...



How many people will likely die because the mages are going to fight to be freed from their oppressors? How many will needlessly die because there will never be a compromise between the templars and the mages? I don't honestly see why people address this "doom" scenerio of mass innocents dying if mages aren't virtually enslaved to the Chantry when it's very likely there will collateral damage in the inevitable war between the templars and the mages.

They should all be executed in that case.  If the mages are going to wage war and kill innocents because they want total freedom and with that freedom comes the kind of carnage that was apparent in the short period of time in DAO then a real Templar hunt would have to start and eliminate the problem.  But we've hads this discussion in multple threads and it always ends the same.  With the pro mage crowd saying 'trust me, nothing bad is going to happen.'

Modifié par Beerfish, 04 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[darklordpocky-san]

it really depends on how you look at it.

Mages on their own are not inherently evil, but there are things that are beyond their control, so they need proper guidance if they are to be raised in normal society, lest they become corrupted

The Chantry does keep most Mages in line, but they treat all Mages unwilling to live under their rules as criminals, and persecute them without evidence of wrongdoing.

While Mages are a threat when they are part of unjust causes, the Chantry are responsible for many Crusades that have been more than matching of that level of evil.

Really, the problem lies with a religious super-power controlling the Mages, as apposed to some rule by monarch or well-trained Mage council/society. The texts pretty much call Mages evil, and therefore, they are, from square one, treated as threats without any evidence to suggest it.

as they say; "the order dictates"

Modifié par darklordpocky-san, 04 mars 2011 - 01:25 .

[Beerfish]

darklordpocky-san wrote...


The Chantry does keep most Mages in line, but they treat all Mages unwilling to live under their rules criminals, and persecute them without evidence of wrongdoing.

"

The problem is with the amount of damage one mage can do.  By the time you get evidence of wrong doing you end up with a redcliffe situation.  A young mage with a good heart doing what he thought was right and cauing the deaths of many.  This is why mages are singled out and dealt with so vigilantly, not that one might turn like any other person in the world but that when one turns major disaster can follow.

[Riona45]

Underoath wrote...

First thing,please stay civil.......you can go on a crusade against the chantry in the game it appears so relax and answer with temperance.

I just want to point out that it's bad form to plead for your presumed "opponents" to relax, be civil, and not go on a tirade before they've even had a chance to say anything.  It makes you look insincere.

[Underoath]

darklordpocky-san wrote...

it really depends on how you look at it.

Mages on their own are not inherently evil, but there are things that are beyond their control, so they need proper guidance if they are to be raised in normal society, lest they become corrupted

The Chantry does keep most Mages in line, but they treat all Mages unwilling to live under their rules as criminals, and persecute them without evidence of wrongdoing.

While Mages are a threat when they are part of unjust causes, the Chantry are responsible for many Crusades that have been more than matching of that level of evil.

Really, the problem lies with a religious super-power controlling the Mages, as apposed to some rule by monarch or well-trained Mage council/society. The texts pretty much call Mages evil, and therefore, they are, from square one, treated as threats without any evidence to suggest it.

as they say; "the order dictates"

So did the chantry originally consider mages inherently evil? I still don't remember anything saying that all mages are automatically evil.
 
I've always been under the impression mages are enslaved not b/c they are considered evil but b/c they are feared due to the fact that evil can possess them. If mages themselves were considered inherently evil would they not be killed as soon as they showed magical abilities??

Modifié par Underoath, 04 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Panpsychist]

If I were a mage I would demand my freedom a a rational self interested being. If I were a normal I would demand that the practice of magic at the very least be heavily regulated as a rational self interested being. That is the issue, because yoiu have to watch out for whoever is in power lest they become corrupt.

Modifié par Panpsychist, 04 mars 2011 - 01:41 .

[elfdwarf]

i think elves ,qunari or dwarves make better ruler then humans
i believe circle should be school not prison and templar should be mage police not personal army of chantry and executioner of rogue mages
tranquil will be mage judge and lawyer.

[Tereval]

What you have is a situation of pure economics. Magic is a resource, but unlike most natural resources it is somewhat unpredictable and has its own agency. Mage lines will generally produce mages but non mage lines may also do so. Following the core assumption that people would object to the subjigation of other free people they make mages an "other" provide fear mongering and stir the pot.

In a fantasy kingdom magic is the most valuable of all resources, magic armors, magic soldiers, mobile artilary, magic potions, all of these things are incredibly valuable and can make or break battles, politics, medicine, etc. Left on their own mages would profit and guide their own behaviours, in some cases for better, in some cases for worse. What the chantry provides is a channel through which mages can be oppressed indirectly by the ruling cast, they become second class citizens in a manner very similar to elves (its an easy comparison, former rulers with arcane knowledge now fallen and enslaved).

Modifié par Tereval, 04 mars 2011 - 01:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

They should all be executed in that case.

I'm not a fan of genocide, especially when it involves people who haven't done anything wrong.

Beerfish wrote...

If the mages are going to wage war and kill innocents because they want total freedom and with that freedom comes the kind of carnage that was apparent in the short period of time in DAO then a real Templar hunt would have to start and eliminate the problem.

You mean if they wage a war to free themselves from their oppressors - the Chantry and its templars.

Beerfish wrote...

But we've hads this discussion in multple threads and it always ends the same. With the pro mage crowd saying 'trust me, nothing bad is going to happen.'

That seems to be the same response everyone tells the mages when the mages are brought into the toxic enviornment of the Circle.

[ALVIG824]

( I apologize in advance if this has been said already)

BEACUSE WE WOULD GET TO SHOOT LIGHNING AT FOOLS!!!! 

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I see no reason to assume that emancipating the mages would only lead to genocide.

Freedom for the mages in demonstrably unfair to "norms." They pose a danger to them that is not present in "norms" themselves. So the "norms" have it in their best interest to restrict the mages. If the mages refuse to agree to this, the most likely outcome will eventually be war. As the mages have been shown to be leaning toward emanicapion it can be conjectured that they are leaning toward conflict, which means war, and mostly likely some for of genocide is on the horizon.

Why would the mages not being oppressed be unfair to normal people? I'd imagine that nobody had a problem when the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi used his abilities to save their lives. I don't think anyone had a problem when the Circle of Magi was the edge against the Qunari invaders and their magic was an advantage against the advanced technology the Qunari had. Had more mages been avaliable at Ostagar instead of only seven, I'd imagine we wouldn't have even had to deal with the Blight destroying the south of the nation.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or they would be freed from the Chantry to avoid an all-out war, because I doubt the Libertarians and the other groups of mages who seek their freedom will accept anything else.

A "norm" that has an interest in freeing mages has an interest in self destruction.

That must explain those mage tolerant societies that have stood for centuries.