264 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Riona45 wrote...

Underoath wrote...

First thing,please stay civil.......you can go on a crusade against the chantry in the game it appears so relax and answer with temperance.

I just want to point out that it's bad form to plead for your presumed "opponents" to relax, be civil, and not go on a tirade before they've even had a chance to say anything.  It makes you look insincere.

^This
I went on a tirade anyway 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

But we've hads this discussion in multple threads and it always ends the same.  With the pro mage crowd saying 'trust me, nothing bad is going to happen.'

Is that really how they end, or are you creating a straw man?

Because that's a terrible argument.  A stronger argument in favour if free mages would be, I think, that individual freedom is worth the risk.  Each mage is asking not to govern the world, but to govern himself.

Will bad things happen if the mages are set free?  Absolutely they will, but if the mages are oppressed then a bad thing is happening all the time.  Oppression is a bad thing.

[Underoath]

Emzamination wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Underoath wrote...

First thing,please stay civil.......you can go on a crusade against the chantry in the game it appears so relax and answer with temperance.

I just want to point out that it's bad form to plead for your presumed "opponents" to relax, be civil, and not go on a tirade before they've even had a chance to say anything.  It makes you look insincere.

^This
I went on a tirade anyway 

Nahh I just know that I've seen similar threads closed b/c of the tirades people go on; hence the over exaggeration of "reason" and "temperance". And yes I was being rather insincere......some of the threads have been pure insanity of late.

Also I don't really consider people on a forum my "oponents". My main goal was to get people to discuss without being jerks to other people. I could care less if they rant off about me.

As to an earlier post saying I have an unhealthy attachment to reason and Richard Dawkins.......lol lets just say Richard Dawkins really does think I should go die in a corner

As for my opinion on the mages/chantry, I haven't stated my personal opinion to be honest......I disagree with the chantry using lyrium to control the templars and by extension the mages, but I also have problems with the mages. What I will do in DA2 if given the choice, I have not decided. In truth I do not have an opinion. Don't let my post fool you.

Modifié par Underoath, 04 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Medhia Nox]

Ahh - myopic people are talking about religion again I see.

The mages in Dragon Age are like the psykers of Warhammer. They're a danger to themselves and to the world around them. There is no "I have enough control." They are ALL prayed upon - all the time - by demons. Look at Conner? An entire bannorn (am I choosing the correct term?) is nearly destroyed because a little boy makes a deal with a demon.

I'd love for it to be revealed that magic really did pervert "heaven" and create the Black City - and this is coming from an avid mage player. An avid mage player who would support Templar control of the mages - because I would not trust mages to govern themselves.

As for the chantry - it's interesting. Do you people also want the Ferelden government destroyed? They keep elves in a frigg'n ghetto. Depending on the story - the new tyrne (sp?) of Denerim is a confirmed elf hater.

The dwarves don't have a religion - but they do have a caste system. Yet is anyone cranky about the castless? How about the surface dwarves? How about the fact that the dwarves are backstabbing - double dealing - mobsters who fight family battles for prestige? ((BTW - I LOVE the dwarves of Dragon Age.))

How about the Tevinter freak'n Imperium? Not only do they have a quest chain connected to slavery - but they create a plague to hide the slave trade. ((Okay, it's not a plague - but there are sick elves all over the place. They created "something".)) Those are mages - psychotic, evil mages.

What I love SO much about the Dragon Age world (Thedas I believe) is that nobody is innocent - nobody is all good, all bad. There are noble members of the Chantry - or at least followers of Andraste. Greagor is NOT a bad man - he actually has empathy for what is going on at the Tower (I actually think him and Irving have a "thing" actually).

It's amazing how personal bias (a trait that actually is very far from "reason") clouds people's perceptions of games without even looking at what the game suggests about a group.

[Naitaka]

It seems that quite a few people have made the argument that mages wouldn't have resorted to blood magic if it weren't for the Chantry's oppression.

The problem with that line of thought however, is that Blood Magic isn't simply a mean to an end, it's more of a shortcut to power. It's often human nature that people will not be satisfy with their lot in life, what we have is never enough and we will always strive for more, be it power, fame or money. If the mages were to remain free, there would be a million other reasons for them to abuse blood magic, even when they have good intention.

Even so, I don't find this to be enough of a justification to treat mages less than human as the Chantry seem to do. Imho, if the Circle Towers were a system seperated from religious belief, alot of the problem wouldn't have existed in the first place. However, with the way things stand as it is now, I can't see a non-violent solution to the conflict between the Chantry and mages.

Modifié par Naitaka, 04 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[Kmead15]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Ahh - myopic people are talking about religion again I see.

The mages in Dragon Age are like the psykers of Warhammer. They're a danger to themselves and to the world around them. There is no "I have enough control." They are ALL prayed upon - all the time - by demons. Look at Conner? An entire bannorn (am I choosing the correct term?) is nearly destroyed because a little boy makes a deal with a demon.

I'd love for it to be revealed that magic really did pervert "heaven" and create the Black City - and this is coming from an avid mage player. An avid mage player who would support Templar control of the mages - because I would not trust mages to govern themselves.

As for the chantry - it's interesting. Do you people also want the Ferelden government destroyed? They keep elves in a frigg'n ghetto. Depending on the story - the new tyrne (sp?) of Denerim is a confirmed elf hater.

The dwarves don't have a religion - but they do have a caste system. Yet is anyone cranky about the castless? How about the surface dwarves? How about the fact that the dwarves are backstabbing - double dealing - mobsters who fight family battles for prestige? ((BTW - I LOVE the dwarves of Dragon Age.))

How about the Tevinter freak'n Imperium? Not only do they have a quest chain connected to slavery - but they create a plague to hide the slave trade. ((Okay, it's not a plague - but there are sick elves all over the place. They created "something".)) Those are mages - psychotic, evil mages.

What I love SO much about the Dragon Age world (Thedas I believe) is that nobody is innocent - nobody is all good, all bad. There are noble members of the Chantry - or at least followers of Andraste. Greagor is NOT a bad man - he actually has empathy for what is going on at the Tower (I actually think him and Irving have a "thing" actually).

It's amazing how personal bias (a trait that actually is very far from "reason") clouds people's perceptions of games without even looking at what the game suggests about a group.

We're not claiming that all those things are okay, but the mages being oppressed is terrible. In fact, I'd guess that most people who support equality for mages would support equality in those systems as well. However, this thread happened to be about the mage issue and not those other ones.

Also, I totally agree that the issues not being black and white makes the setting more interesting. I'd not mind if it was revealed that the mages created the Black City either. I don't argue for mage freedom because I want to see it in game, but because I think it's right.

[The Night Haunter]

There is nothing better to mages ruling than Chantry ruling. Both systems have pros and cons. However our society values individual freedom, so people tend to support innocent until proven guily. Which means they prefer mages being free!!

[Medhia Nox]

Also - don't get me wrong, I wanted to smack that "Mother Superior" (can't remember their name) in the face at the very beginning when she tells Uldred of all people to basically behave like he's a dog. Yes - they're a touch drunk with the power of ruling, but I think the mages clearly need to be governed, and not "self-governed". They're trying "self-governance" in the Tevinter Imperium - and look how well that turned out.

And mages didn't turn to blood magic because of the Chantry. They used blood magic before Andraste even shows up on the seen - way before mages were controlled. How do you think they turned the Black City into what it is now? Since the Black City does exist in the game - the only question is, was is the "Seat of the Maker" prior.

Edit: Also - Alistair doesn't know why lyrium is used for Templars. Sadly - I did not play Awakening so unless something enlightening popped up there, Alistair (the only templar source i know of) doesn't answer that question completely. While an addiction is implied - he also says that lyrium makes Templars MUCH more powerful.

So - if governing mages is wrong, is having dangerous mages turned into Tranquil also wrong? The mages don't even seem to argue this point in the game. Jowan escaped "control" and look at all the stupid crap he pulls - and that's just one incompetent mage.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 04 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Naitaka]

To be fair, Jowan would have been incompetent even if he weren't a mage, what happened to Connor really didn't involve magic on his part. Also, he actually turn out pretty well if you release him.

[The Night Haunter]

Naitaka wrote...

To be fair, Jowan would have been incompetent even if he weren't a mage, what happened to Connor really didn't involve magic on his part. Also, he actually turn out pretty well if you release him.

except for the piles of corpses he leaves behind. (All the zombies you fight were once living people + castle guards + redcliff citizens that died b4 u got there)

[Kmead15]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - don't get me wrong, I wanted to smack that "Mother Superior" (can't remember their name) in the face at the very beginning when she tells Uldred of all people to basically behave like he's a dog. Yes - they're a touch drunk with the power of ruling, but I think the mages clearly need to be governed, and not "self-governed". They're trying
"self-governance" in the Tevinter Imperium - and look how well that turned out.

And mages didn't turn to blood magic because of the Chantry. They used blood magic before Andraste even shows up on the seen - way before mages were controlled. How do you think they turned the Black City into what it is now? Since the Black City does exist in the game - the only question is, was is the "Seat of the Maker" prior. 

Technically it isn't confirmed that the Chantry's version of events is true, but I'll bite. Those were the actions of a small group of power-hungry fools who lived hundreds of years ago. It should not be blamed on all mages any more than the current Chantry can be blamed for the previous Exalted Marches.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Edit: Also - Alistair doesn't know why lyrium is used for Templars. Sadly - I did not play Awakening so unless something enlightening popped up there,  Alistair (the only templar source i know of) doesn't answer that
question completely. While an addiction is implied - he also says that lyrium makes Templars MUCH more powerful.

Addiction is not just implied; Alistair outright says: “The Chantry keeps a close reign on its templars. We are given lyrium to help develop our magical talents, you see... which means we become addicted.” As for lyrium’s effectiveness, we get: “You don't need lyrium in order to learn the templar talents. Lyrium just makes templars talents more effective. Or so I was told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.” Of course, one can always assume Alistair is being paranoid, but the addiction is pretty much fact.

Medhia Nox wrote...

So - if governing mages is wrong, is having dangerous mages turned into Tranquil also wrong? The mages don't even seem to argue this point in the game. Jowan escaped "control" and look at all the stupid crap he pulls - and that's just one incompetent mage.

I’d say it's wrong. Even Stalin-era USSR eventually declared lobotomy “contrary to the principles of humanity.” I’d hate to be less humane than them.

Edit: fixed strange spacing/code error. Not sure what happened.

Modifié par Kmead15, 04 mars 2011 - 07:44 .

[Vukodlak]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - don't get me wrong, I wanted to smack that "Mother Superior" (can't remember their name) in the face at the very beginning when she tells Uldred of all people to basically behave like he's a dog. Yes - they're a touch drunk with the power of ruling, but I think the mages clearly need to be governed, and not "self-governed". They're trying "self-governance" in the Tevinter Imperium - and look how well that turned out.

It turned out fine, the problem is the rulers are corrupt and abuse there power. Mortal men without magic are perfectly capable of being evil vile tyrants. We know very little about the current Imperium execpt they still allow slaves, but that has nothing to do with the rulers being mages and its rulers are over indulgent

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

To
be fair, Jowan would have been incompetent even if he weren't a mage,
what happened to Connor really didn't involve magic on his part. Also,
he actually turn out pretty well if you release him.

except
for the piles of corpses he leaves behind. (All the zombies you fight
were once living people + castle guards + redcliff citizens that died b4
u got there)

Your blaming the undead created by the desire demon who stuck a deal with Connor on Jowan? Why not blame the blight on him while your at it. Jowan was tricked my Loghain into poisoning the Arl, he was able to get close only because Isodie feared her son being taken way from her.[and if mages were treated as people and not criminals that might not be so]. So she hired him to tutor the boy inorder to hide his talents. Jowan being a mage had nothing to do with the events that transpired at Red Cliff beyond the reason he was there.  Whats ironic is the only reason the Arl survived the poison was the deal Connor struck with the desire demon. If the Circle was independent then perhaps Isodle didn't fear sending Connor off to mage school. The Arl would have died and exposing Loghain would have been that much harder.

And mages didn't turn to blood magic because of the Chantry.
They used blood magic before Andraste even shows up on the seen - way
before mages were controlled. How do you think they turned the Black
City into what it is now? Since the Black City does exist in the game -
the only question is, was is the "Seat of the Maker" prior.

But right now, in the current age fear or resentment of the templar's shackles drives some mages to blood magic. Uldreds rebellion was a failed attempt to overthrow the templars because Uldred lost control and was consumed by the demon. If the purpose of the templar control is to prevent abombinations and other horrors but it causing more then it stops, thats a problem. Broken Circle provides evidence that the templars locking up mages and treating them like criminals doesn't help things.

According to myth, the black city turned black because the mages entered it. HOW they entered it is subject to debate. Rather then blood magic I'd say it was a Eluvian mirror after playing through Witch Hunt. Assuming there ever was a golden city, supposedly 1,200 years ago or more the golden city turned black. You'd think that information would be passed down by mages and not a prophet. If I was mage an in a journey to the fade I noticed the golden city that once hung in the sky turned black. I'd write that down, I'd tell people. But no the chantry teaches about the golden city. NOT the one group of humans capable of seeing it albet from a distance.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 04 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[Vhaius]

I suppose it depends on who you put in the inevitable power vacuum. Do we get the option to choose who we put in power? The parameters with which the Circle will rule? Or do we just tear down the Chantry and let havoc ensue?

[Vukodlak]

Vhaius wrote...

I suppose it depends on who you put in the inevitable power vacuum. Do we get the option to choose who we put in power? The parameters with which the Circle will rule? Or do we just tear down the Chantry and let havoc ensue?

Each circle should be more or less independent of eachother, The Circles of Magi should function more like boarding schools, mages are taken at a young age to learn and harness there skill. But they are allowed to maintaint ties with family and possibly visit on holidays if they can afford the trip home.

When a mage passes his Harrowing he may return home and be left in relative peace, by that point his ability to resist possession and be responsible. If he does anything criminal he'd be dealt with as a criminal. Which means he has the same rights as other citizens of his nation. The decision to force a mage to be made Tranquil should be done only as a last resort(not counting execution). And the mage certainly deserves a trial to defend themselves.

The Templars can still provide security(especiall during a Harrowing when risk of possession is highest) and also hunt done criminal mages. The mage hunters may also be accompanied by mages to assist them.

[lost lupus]

all this argument's a stupid
freeing mages and them ruling are 2 different things

and even if the mages end up ruling so what?
every single ruler in thedas rules through force, this is not limited to tevinter

for all the fear mongering it is but a kettle calling a pot black