264 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

A militant organization within the state is a threat to the state.

One might similarly argue that a state without an independent militant oganisation within it is a threat to its people.

Indeed.  Or you could say that "people within a state are a threat to the state"--you don't need to be military to run a successful rebellion.

[SirRaphael]

Erani wrote...

Well, I don't see how Mages' freedom from the Chantry=Mages ruling.

Separation of church and state is key in this case, whether "the state" be a King/Queen/Emperor or more decentralized like in the Free Marches. Mages should be governed/supervised by the state, or some "police" force that answers to the state and not to the Chantry (like the Templars).

This is totally different from mages running amok. I don't see how prying the Chantry's dirty claws from power would lead to some kind of Mage World Domination.

How are they clutching power with dirty claws? Magic is dangerous especially not in check. You just assume every mage would be good and responsible when thats not the case. There'd be a lot of deaths, and god forbid more people trying to get into the black city.

[PsychoBlonde]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I actually missed that bit.  Sorry about that.

S'okay.  I figured something like that, I will sometimes read the first line myself and be so fired up to write a response that I miss the important bit a few lines down.

[TheCreeper]

SirRaphael wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

I would just like to remove the military component of the chantry. A militant organization within the state is a threat to the state. Templars could work as public law enforcement specializing in hunting rogue mages and maleficars. However apostates would be free to live normal lives(though they still have to register being a mage with public law enforcement.

I doubt we'll have this option though

I picture some templars and long lines of mages in a bleak grey office building, the templars screwing with mages. Giving them different forms and telling them to go wait in different lines.

So in the future of Dragon Age, Templars will be the DMV?

[trobbins777]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

A militant organization within the state is a threat to the state.

One might similarly argue that a state without an independent militant oganisation within it is a threat to its people.

This is true, However the state serves the people and must answer to them. An independent organisation doesn't have to care about the citizens of the state it resides within.

[SirRaphael]

TheCreeper wrote...

SirRaphael wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

I would just like to remove the military component of the chantry. A militant organization within the state is a threat to the state. Templars could work as public law enforcement specializing in hunting rogue mages and maleficars. However apostates would be free to live normal lives(though they still have to register being a mage with public law enforcement.

I doubt we'll have this option though

I picture some templars and long lines of mages in a bleak grey office building, the templars screwing with mages. Giving them different forms and telling them to go wait in different lines.

So in the future of Dragon Age, Templars will be the DMV?

Seems highly likely wouldn't it? I imagine the ties would carry the templar crest... or maybe they'd wear a button?

[Beerfish]

"No? Not a historical scholar, then. Many, many people argue strenuously for the individual liberty of people they've never met and have no direct personal interest in. "

Tell them that the person they are giving liberty to can turn into a mass murdering killing machine in a matter of seconds at any time and without notice, show them examples of it happening in the past I would guess that the people happy to give liberty would pause for thought.

The 'better safe than sorry' quote applies to many things in life and this would be one of them or maybe more appropriately the 'nimby' (not in my back yard) principle. Mages? sure they deserve freedom from the Chantry! Wait...what? Three of them are moving into our village? Nooooooo!

[panamakira]

I don't think mages ruling will be any better. I mean Tevinters taught us that anyway. I think neither should rule but equally? I think there needs to be a fair balance between the mages and chantry. A compromise. Right now the Chantry it's not compromising crap. They're just violating the Mages freedom. But I also know that there's some crazy blood mages running around in Thedas. I wonder if maybe Circles could have more freedom? Like the Chantry works with mages to make the Circle an academy where children with magic abilities can train and still see their families? Or maybe a council where there's equal amount of Templars and Mages where they're both equal?

I think the Chantry needs to compromise more (reform, clean it inside out) and leave more breathing room to mages but I wouldn't go as far as have mages rule? But they definitely need more freedom, families, etc~

Modifié par panamakira, 03 mars 2011 - 10:13 .

[JrayM16]

The OP's logic is too general, it could be used to justify keeping ANY group of skilled/powerful people in check.

Not to mention, that nothing was there to stop the CHantry from calling two exalted marches to genocide elves and to get petty reveng on Tevinter.

Besides, few people sugest that the mages rule, just that they be free. Mage freedom also does not necessitate the death of the CHantry. The Templars could still exist as a sort of mage-police force, but the Chantry would not directly control any mages' lives.

That's my siggestion anyway.

[Sylvius the Mad]

trobbins777 wrote...

This is true, However the state serves the people and must answer to them.

That depends on the state.  Some states serve and answer to only those who run them.  Oligarchies don't answer to the people.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

The 'better safe than sorry' quote applies to many things in life and this would be one of them

I don't think I could ever defend the precautionary principle with a straight face.

[Gill Kaiser]

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

"No? Not a historical scholar, then. Many, many people argue strenuously for the individual liberty of people they've never met and have no direct personal interest in. "

Tell them that the person they are giving liberty to can turn into a mass murdering killing machine in a matter of seconds at any time and without notice, show them examples of it happening in the past I would guess that the people happy to give liberty would pause for thought.

How many people will likely die because the mages are going to fight to be freed from their oppressors? How many will needlessly die because there will never be a compromise between the templars and the mages? I don't honestly see why people address this "doom" scenerio of mass innocents dying if mages aren't virtually enslaved to the Chantry when it's very likely there will collateral damage in the inevitable war between the templars and the mages.

Beerfish wrote...

The 'better safe than sorry' quote applies to many things in life and this would be one of them or maybe more appropriately the 'nimby' (not in my back yard) principle. Mages? sure they deserve freedom from the Chantry! Wait...what? Three of them are moving into our village? Nooooooo!

That must explain why the nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans still have mages living alongside non-mages. We also know Haven had mages without Chantry or templar control, and it didn't fall to a magocracy.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 mars 2011 - 10:19 .

[JrayM16]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

This.

[panamakira]

JrayM16 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

This.

Agreed. I like that idea better. The Chantry seems to take advantage of Templars as much too with the whole lyrium addiction.

[PsychoBlonde]

Beerfish wrote...
Tell them that the person they are giving liberty to can turn into a mass murdering killing machine in a matter of seconds at any time and without notice, show them examples of it happening in the past I would guess that the people happy to give liberty would pause for thought.

Since I'm well aware that my *actual* neighbors could turn into a killing machine at any time and without notice, I fail to see how this applies.  I live right between a guy who loves to update his house and is constantly running all kinds of saws, drills, and even nastier power equipment, and a fireworks fanatic.

Sure, for a while after the plan was put in place, mages would probably get dirty looks and grumbling from the neighbors.  Ever heard that "sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?  Granted, there will probably be stone-throwers at first (there generally are), but these fade away over time.

If all this doomsaying about how people are irrational idiots who will never accept or support this or that were true, the civil rights movement would never have gotten out the door.  Women would not be allowed to vote.  Gays would still be given electroshock therapy to "fix" them.

Do any of those groups have universal acceptance?  No.  But pretty much all of them can find a happy lifestyle for their deviant ways (if you want to call it that ).  Why insist that the situation for mages is hopeless?  It's fairly grim, sure--there's no precedents for liberty in Thedas.  But there was no precedent for America, either, or any of the other countries across the globe that have thrown off most of the shackles of old bull****.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 03 mars 2011 - 10:40 .

[TaskCortez]

Iberius wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Well...it depends on whether you're a mage or not, doesn't it? 8) Whether you consider it better?

I would agree with this. But I mean I doubt you'll get a choice if the chantry falls or not. The demo makes it look like it has already fallen.

I do see your point though the mages could just take over and be as bad as the chantry but that would make for a rather lame story imo. I would question whether either ever gets into "total power".

It wouldn't be lame at all though. If anything, it would be rather interesting.

There are bad Mages around and all that.

Modifié par TaskCortez, 03 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[Curlain]

JrayM16 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

This.

The only problem here is which secular authority will take control of this Templar force, sundered from the Chantry who would run and organise them, the Templars themselves?  I don't see this going down well with local rulers and governments (likely have a similar ending as the actual Knights Templars, where the Order would be destroyed as Phillip IV of France did, though that was to get the money and wealth from the Knight Templar lands it's true).  And most rulers would have no reason to accept this independent army in their lands since it no longer has the relgious authority/sactification given the Templars currently by the Chantry, the Templars position would no longer be 'Maker-given' so to speak.  I remember in the Landsmeet in Origins one of the important issues that can swing opinion in the Warden's favour is Loghain kidnapping a Templar because this is interfering in Chantry business, this however would not be a problem for rulers with secular Templars.


On the other hand, if Templars are under the control of local rulers/governments, this could lead to other problems, the remit of such Templars might expand to go beyond policing mages to acting against anyone opposing the local ruler, which if they are not currently operating under a totalitarian rule (which would include a number of areas in Thedas) already could lead to some major problems for everyone, and see the emergance of tyrannies of varies kinds across Thedas.

[ReallyRue]

JrayM16 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

This.

This is what I've thought is the most sensible solution too. Mages get freedom, but people are still protected if they abuse their power. Chantry is not involved.

[JrayM16]

Curlain wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The ideal situation would be freedom for mages, and the secession of the Templar Order from the control of the Chantry and its outmoded trappings and dogma. The Templars would be best utilised as a secular anti-mage police force.

This.

The only problem here is which secular authority will take control of this Templar force, sundered from the Chantry who would run and organise them, the Templars themselves?  I don't see this going down well with local rulers and governments (likely have a similar ending as the actual Knights Templars, where the Order would be destroyed as Phillip IV of France did, though that was to get the money and wealth from the Knight Templar lands it's true).  And most rulers would have no reason to accept this independent army in their lands since it no longer has the relgious authority/sactification given the Templars currently by the Chantry, the Templars position would no longer be 'Maker-given' so to speak.  I remember in the Landsmeet in Origins one of the important issues that can swing opinion in the Warden's favour is Loghain kidnapping a Templar because this is interfering in Chantry business, this however would not be a problem for rulers with secular Templars.


On the other hand, if Templars are under the control of local rulers/governments, this could lead to other problems, the remit of such Templars might expand to go beyond policing mages to acting against anyone opposing the local ruler, which if they are not currently operating under a totalitarian rule (which would include a number of areas in Thedas) already could lead to some major problems for everyone, and see the emergance of tyrannies of varies kinds across Thedas.

They will because they might be worried about apostates in their land and would like a specialozed force to help stop magical crime.

[SirRaphael]

You also forget the majority of citizens don't trust mages either, and a lot of them believe in the maker.

[Curlain]

JrayM16 wrote...



They will because they might be worried about apostates in their land and would like a specialozed force to help stop magical crime.

They might accept this for the short term, but I don't think any ruler would willing accept such a potential challenge to their authority from a secular source over time, and many might see such a large army as a far greater immediate threat to their rule then any apostate.  It that might even be a legitimate fear, no longer bound by their Chantry vows and (more importantly) lyrium addication (with the Chantry controlling supply) what is to stop these Templar forces deciding to take power themselves (or at least playing king-makers, making sure they get the right rulers who would be more 'senstive' to their concerns etc)

[The_mango55]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Since I'm well aware that my *actual* neighbors could turn into a killing machine at any time and without notice, I fail to see how this applies.  I live right between a guy who loves to update his house and is constantly running all kinds of saws, drills, and even nastier power equipment, and a fireworks fanatic.

It takes evil and a willingness on your neigbors' part to become serial killers, they have to either be disturbed in a way that would make it easy to be noticed (even if nobody did anything about it) or somehow completely supress their conscionce. Mages on the other hand don't have to be evil, they just have to be weak, to become possessed by a demon capable of causing huge destruction.

And nobody (who didn't already have major political or military power) could cause destruction like Connor in Redcliffe just by turning into a serial killer.

Modifié par The_mango55, 03 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Dinaminjo]

Before I start you have to understand that a lot of stuff in DA is done "just for gameplay".. You meet a lot of mages and a lot of dales in DA but generally not much are there.. Magic is rare.. And so are the dales.. You travel around the country in a loading screen but in reality it would take days or weeks even. And etc etc..

First: you are forgetting (or never heard) Jowans story.. Anyone remember it?! I actually only cought it by accident.. To cut it short, he tells a story how his OWN MOTHER was scared of him when he was 5 yo because he showed signs of magic.. Some time ago I saw a documentary about a tribe in the Amazon.. If a child is born with a defect (akka not perfect) his own mother must kill it because its the "humane" thing to do.. Survival of the fittest at its best eh? To get back to Jowan his story, it ended with his father leaving him at the chantry..

Second: what DO we know about the dalish?! Like really know?? They live in secluded clans who often go generations without meeting each other let alone the "rest of the world".. And if they "meet" them they avoid them like the plague.. So ppl saying "they get along with their mages just fine" are pulling that out of thin air.. There could have been dosens or hundreds of dalish clans wiped because their keeper or someone with magic affinity got corrupted.. And we or anyone else will never hear about it.. Can you say it didn't happen?? I don't think you can..

It's not a black and white world in DA and you can't label it as such..
The templars are just a tool which must be take into account from a much wider perspective..
Is the Chantry opressing mages through the templars? Yes they are.
Are the Chantry and the Templars the only ones that want mages opressed? Most definantly NOT!

IRL what do you think about mental hospitals?! 
In a way the mentaly sick ppl in those hospitals are the tranquil.
At least those poped with meds and restrains so they are not a danger to the rest..
And do you protest against such institutions? You might protest agains electric shocks but meds?
No you don't.. For most of the time, you don't even think about it..
Because our society tells us there is no other way to deal with such ppl..
Do you actually beleive that nobody was locked away who was "normal"?
Ofc there were, but that doesn't mean mental hospitals don't serve their purpose..

I'm sure someone will say: "but you don't put ppl in a mental hospital just because they are different.."
Actually that's exactly what you do..
If by our standards someone is not behaving like they should they might end up there..
Never mind if they have access to a gun or don't..
And magic is far more dangerous, far more frightening and far more potent than any gun. 

To bring a portuon of dark humor into this: just how many ppl are in mental hospitals just for claiming they do have magic powers..

Modifié par Dinaminjo, 03 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Well then Thedas is screwed. Hello genocide.

I see no reason to assume that emancipating the mages would only lead to genocide.

Freedom for the mages in demonstrably unfair to "norms." They pose a danger to them that is not present in "norms" themselves. So the "norms" have it in their best interest to restrict the mages. If the mages refuse to agree to this, the most likely outcome will eventually be war. As the mages have been shown to be leaning toward emanicapion it can be conjectured that they are leaning toward conflict, which means war, and mostly likely some for of genocide is on the horizon.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Or they would be freed from the Chantry to avoid an all-out war, because I doubt the Libertarians and the other groups of mages who seek their freedom will accept anything else.

A "norm" that has an interest in freeing mages has an interest in self destruction.