1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Lacan2]

"Playing with these kinds of settings just isn’t right for the traditional pause-play style."

Perhaps this might be true on the consoles, I don't know. On PC, I'm pausing and playing all the time, issuing attack commands and moving my players about the battlefield. Very similar to DAO except with no iso camera.

On pc, I don't see the big difference between issuing commands while paused in DAO and DA2. :/

[Yrkoon]

Meltemph wrote...

8 pages over a blogger website... I'm shocked.

As usual in this topic you have people trying their hardest to make sure everyone understands that they are not playing a "true" rpg... Because the older ones were just so deep and full of everything good in the world.

It's always funny though when you see someone one bring up Might and Magic or Ultima, you know that that is when they are just trying to make sure everyone knows that DA2 just inst hardcore like them.

Yeah, this.  

And lets FACE it.  As much as they'd like us to think  this is a 'hardcore vs. Mainstream' debate, it's not even that.     Instead, it's the rose-colored glasses debate.  Reality vs. Nostalgia, or  "the  grandpa syndrom" as I like to call it.  It manifests itself into absolutely every type of entertainment medium.

Kid:  OMG,  Mike Tyson and Manny Pacquiao  are  Great Fighters!!
Grandpa:  Ha.  They're dummies with no skills.  Son let me tell you,   The fighters of the 50s were 10 times better than your Manny Pacquiao


Kid: Ooh!  I really Like Metallica
Grandpa:  Ugh... Rock Died when Led Zepplin Broke up, son.

Kid: I had a rough day at school today.
Grandpa:  No you didn't.  You don't know 'rough'.  We had to walk to school barefoot in the snow, uphill.  We had to stand during class.  And if we misbehaved, we were shot.  Twice... in the ass...  with a .22

Kid:  wow,  I really like my Xbox 360
Grandpa:  meh....   Doesn't hold a candle to my Atari and all the classics you could play on  it.


Kid:  grandpa?  What's a "classic"?
Grandpa:  Son, a classic is something  from the past.  When you get older, you'll understand

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[moilami]

Lordless wrote...

moilami wrote...

Autolycus wrote...

I personally don't see (other than upsetting a lot of people with attention defecits) why they cant have old school classic RPG game with modern graphics and technology....

Best of both worlds?

I could take anyday old school classic RPG with modern graphics. Graphics are just graphics. They only help you to visual your surroundings. In my favorit RPG (popularly called as roguelike) graphics are so bad and the game so complex and difficult that maybe 95% people here would outright refuse to play it. Lets take a look how it looks.



That is very fine game and I can't really tell why it should have awesum (sic) graphics. Or well, masses would refuse to play it without. So lets make better graphics. But masses would still refuse to play it because it is too difficult and complex. Lets dumb it down for masses. Now that's a win! We have Diablo.

haha did you ever play ADOM? that game was hardcore.

Yeah, ADOM was great. The creator of ADOM by the way has argued that D&D copied the talent system idea from him. I don't say has that happened or not but apparently ADOM was one of the first games to have talent system.

[AkiKishi]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
DA2's combat is right out of Baldurs Gate:Dark Alliance and it's ilk. Champions of Norath etc. etc. It's hardly new. 

I would say this is the only thing I would emphasize in this discussion.  'Evolve or die' type arguments don't make any sense, as most of the changes made between DA: O and DA2  are NOT brand new ideas.  It isn't about evolution, it's about shifting target audiences.  There are certainly still arguments to be made in favor of DA2 while keeping this in mind, not the least of which is an attempt to determine the overlap of the target audiences and an attempt to analysize how many people are now well outside the target audience versus those who may be gained who wouldn't have even tried the game without the changes.  I would think those arguing for the changes might find this their strongest position, rather than the relatively weak argument that this is somehow totally about "progress".

That makes sense. However, there is a relation to progress. Instead of dreaming up a solution for both audiences and/or coming up with innovative ideas to steal their hearts it seems that BioWare's solution is simplification, streamlining or dumbing down (whatever you prefer to call it) and embrace an action combat system which only one group likes. So, to me that means that your observation about the shifting is right, but that also means that the other group won't be happy. That could have been avoided.

That's my problem with Biowares idea that somehow a "new" combat system will attract these people when everything else in the design is still as "boring" as ever.

As the Japanese say "He who chases two hares catches none" or words to that effect.

At some point they will have to choose or alienate larger and larger segments of the fanbase.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mars 2011 - 04:49 .

[Rawgrim]

Meltemph wrote...

Or maybe you like to paint DA2 as a fantastic game, to make everyone see how superior YOUR taste is, and in the process painting older rpgs as "lesser" rpgs.

I'm not the one trying to tell everyone what is wrong with DA2, and no where did I mention how much better or worse DA2 is. My point was, you can't come into a topic claiming another game did it better, when it only did it better because you liked it more.

Forgive me for not being a Ultima fan though.

I was merely listing up stuff in DA2, that was relevant to why the article in question, felt rpgs were in decline. Lack of choices being removed etc, an compared it to older games. Never said DA2 was better or worse.

its ok not to be a fan of Ultima, mate. Personally I can`t stand the older ones. Or the last two, for that matter.

[termokanden]

I'm an old-school RPG player. Played a lot of pen and paper RPGs and I don't know how many computer RPGs. What's my point? I've seen this kind doomsday talk many times before. It's always the end of RPGs as we know it.

I just hope it will be a good game. And I won't tell you a long story about the state of RPGs these days based on a short demo...

[John Epler]

Rawgrim wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Or maybe you like to paint DA2 as a fantastic game, to make everyone see how superior YOUR taste is, and in the process painting older rpgs as "lesser" rpgs.

I'm not the one trying to tell everyone what is wrong with DA2, and no where did I mention how much better or worse DA2 is. My point was, you can't come into a topic claiming another game did it better, when it only did it better because you liked it more.

Forgive me for not being a Ultima fan though.

I was merely listing up stuff in DA2, that was relevant to why the article in question, felt rpgs were in decline. Lack of choices being removed etc, an compared it to older games. Never said DA2 was better or worse.

its ok not to be a fan of Ultima, mate. Personally I can`t stand the older ones. Or the last two, for that matter.

Ultima VII was the best Ultima, anyways.

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

[Dr. wonderful]

I can play old school and new school.

If any of you can not do that? God help you.

[TwistedComplex]

Someone tell me, what about this game isn't an RPG

I would REALLY like to know

[moilami]

termokanden wrote...

I'm an old-school RPG player. Played a lot of pen and paper RPGs and I don't know how many computer RPGs. What's my point? I've seen this kind doomsday talk many times before. It's always the end of RPGs as we know it.

I just hope it will be a good game. And I won't tell you a long story about the state of RPGs these days based on a short demo...

If you don't do it, why you (possibly) read then game previews from Interwebz?

[Schurge]

Yes the game (Dragon Age 2) is watered down (in terms of combat) and definently less tactical. Mass Effect is my favorite video game franchise ever, and I love its combat (Mass Effect II's combat is what the franchise was meant to have as opposed to Dragon Age which is meant to be more tactical). But I also loved Dragon Age's combat, and Bioware's attempt to merge them just make both aspects stink and fails on both fronts, in my opinion. However, that is not to say the combat isn't fun in it's own right. Its just not as good as Mass Effect's pure action combat system or Dragon Age: Origin's pure tactical combat system.

I would still say Dragon Age 2 qualifies as a 'classic' RPG, most old RPG's have you play a specific character, it is just that they are old and the character had no character and was thus were whatever you wanted them to be. Most 'classic' RPG's didn't have the tactical combat from Baldur's Gate (most were just mash 'a' or mash 'mouse button 1' and ocassionally use a spell). Neverwinter Nights was the worst excuse for a game in history, worse than Imagine: Babies! Unless by classic RPG you mean pure 'Dungeon and Dragons' ala The Elder Scrolls or Baldur's Gate.

I don't think you can fairly or objectively judge the dialogue system in Dragon Age 2 until you've played the full game. It is reasonable, however, to assume it will be like Mass Effect's dialogue system though. While the dialogue system in Mass Effect is very good, it is not necessarily what is good for the Dragon Age franchise.

While I have my own complaints about Dragon Age 2 (I want my Mass Effect to be Mass Effect and my Dragon Age to be Dragon Age aka Origins) it is perfectly reasonable for Bioware to make these changes. If we as consumers want to have these costly games with branching storylines, romances and relationships, contininuity between installments, good to excellent graphics, 100% voiced dialogue with at least decent voice actors, and overall high production values than we will have to deal with Bioware needing to sell more copies. Hell you all get pissed off when there are no graphic depictions of deviant sex.*

And for the record The Old Republic is not an 'action-RPG' or even an MMORPG... it is a CORPG (co-operative online role-playing game).

* If you were offended by that and feel the need to respond look up the definition of deviant first.

EDIT: Fixed hyperlink.

EDITx2: And most 'classic' RPGs had no real choices for that matter.

Modifié par Schurge, 04 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[termokanden]

JohnEpler wrote...

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

Charts are always impressive. It's a good thing the random paper generator here can make all kinds of graphs and diagrams!

Anything can be science if you want

If you don't do it, why you (possibly) read then game previews from Interwebz?

Oh I'm just following threads here because I managed to confuse myself so much that I'm unable to get up from my chair. I do actually care about DA2. But this whole story about RPGs in general based on a demo... It just seems a little weak.

Modifié par termokanden, 04 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Rawgrim]

JohnEpler wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Or maybe you like to paint DA2 as a fantastic game, to make everyone see how superior YOUR taste is, and in the process painting older rpgs as "lesser" rpgs.

I'm not the one trying to tell everyone what is wrong with DA2, and no where did I mention how much better or worse DA2 is. My point was, you can't come into a topic claiming another game did it better, when it only did it better because you liked it more.

Forgive me for not being a Ultima fan though.

I was merely listing up stuff in DA2, that was relevant to why the article in question, felt rpgs were in decline. Lack of choices being removed etc, an compared it to older games. Never said DA2 was better or worse.

its ok not to be a fan of Ultima, mate. Personally I can`t stand the older ones. Or the last two, for that matter.

Ultima VII was the best Ultima, anyways.

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

Quite right, Mr Epler. Hmmm was that the one that came with a coin in the gamebox?

[Johnsen1972]

ibortolis wrote...

worth reading it

http://www.hookedgam...lassic_rpg.html

a small summary,thanks to gamebanshee:

"None of this would be so much of an issue if BioWare lived up to their
promises and actually provided two viable styles of playing the game.
Everyone can sympathise with their decision to add real-time combat to
the game and make it easier for new players to get into the game, in
fact we support it. The more people you can get to play your game the
better; cRPGs are notoriously hard to start off with so making things a
bit easier for beginners is great. However, the issue arises when you
change the very core of the game. The real time combat should in fact be
harder to play. At the beginning of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall,
players were asked if they would like high or low player reflexes
enabled, the slower being easier because players could adopt “a more
cautious and thoughtful playstyle”. This is the kind of option that
should be given in Dragon Age 2. Instead the game only truly caters to
the fast, button-mashing style.

Playing with these kinds of
settings just isn’t right for the traditional pause-play style. People
have argued that if you want that traditional experience then you can
simply play on a harder game mode, but this does not solve it. The
difficulty simply makes the game harder with modifiers such as friendly
fire (in nightmare mode) tougher enemies and so on, but it is still
played as an Action-RPG. While playing the demo, pausing the game to
issue an attack on an enemy just felt completely ridiculous, as they
would have already landed 3 attacks on you by the time you have done
one. The only possible way to do it is to pause and unpause the game
every half a second, therefore forcing players to simply mash buttons
until the enemy is dead. Dragon Age 2 is a real-time Action-RPG, and so
having the pause-play (that only really works with the slower pace of
turn-based RPG’s) is just an unnecessary feature rather than another way
to play through the game.

Like many other developers, BioWare
have made their three main cRPG series into Action-RPGs with Mass Effect
2, Dragon Age 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic. There is no doubt that
these will be great games, but the problem is that they have been
sculpted to what will sell, rather than making the gaming experience
that a number of players are struggling to find nowadays. The market has
always been driven by sales, but nowadays the publishers and producers
are sacrificing genres in order to make more money. As said previously,
Dragon Age: Origins was a commercial success so there was no real need
to change the game so dramatically. This declination is inextricably
tied in to the popularity of consoles over PCs amongst today’s gamers.
As gaming spreads to mass audiences, producers and publishers are lured
by the money that comes along with it. In this case it seems that EA
have encouraged BioWare to open up the game to a bigger audience, and in
doing so have lost many aspects of the genre it once was.


Worse still, there are signs that the game has been rushed out to meet
publisher demands. The graphics are not going to mesmerise anyone, in
fact they don’t look any better compared to Origins, environments are
fairly dull looking but worst of all is weak level design. The review in
PC Games has said that the majority of Dragon Age 2 plays out very much
like the demo, meaning a lot of copy-pasted and narrow paths - ugly.
Narrow paths in an RPG is actually an oxymoron as the genre requires
freedom and an open world and should not be bottle-necking its players.
What this effect does however, is focus the game more towards combat as
is the nature of an action-RPG. It’s quite understandable that all of
these shortcomings have occurred as BioWare are making an effort to
bring out all three of their big RPGs in one year. Given that Dragon Age
2 has only had a maximum of two years in development, many of us
suspected that the game would fall short in some areas. This lack of an
open world, combined with the simple combat means that the game slides
even further from its origins. "

Well in the last days, I read lots of reviews like that.

German PC Games gave DA2 a rating of 88/100, and those have been Die HARD DAO Fans.
The reasons are pretty much the same. Stripping down loads of roleplaying features for more action, medicore graphics and 1 1/2 years development to meet publisher demands just wont get us a RPG of the year. The reviewers felt pissed of, because of running through the SAME copied map the 5th time.

Right now, Witcher 2 and Skyrim are the new "RPG of the year" aspirants.
Dunno if Bioware cares, they will do make their money. There was a lot of hype about DA2 because DAO was really good. So they will sell alot of copies, but Im 100% sure, they wont win as many awards like DAO did. 

Im a bit dissapointed, I was really hoping for more

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 04 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[Yrkoon]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Someone tell me, what about this game isn't an RPG

I would REALLY like to know

Well, cuz of the demo.

It was 100%  linear and  99%  combat 

Therefore  DA2 will  be the same and thus not an RPG.  Fact.  lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

JohnEpler wrote...

Ultima VII was the best Ultima, anyways.

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

Now you remind me of Ultima VII. I'm going to search trough my old belonging to see if I still keep the copy. 

[Meltemph]

Lack of choices being removed etc, an compared it to older games. Never said DA2 was better or worse.

But you can also find older games with less choice. You are cherry picking the good ones(the ones you perceive as good) to compare to the "lack of choice". Which is fine as long as you are being straight up about it, by just saying I prefer "insert game style here" instead of the passive aggressive "it's in decline" or something similar that I see so often just gets old.

I just wish people would just say "I prefer this way" instead of "I prefer this way, because its more RPG like" or in that vein. It only serves to try and add more authority to ones opinion, which it doesn't really do in the 1st place..

[Rawgrim]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Ultima VII was the best Ultima, anyways.

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

Now you remind me of Ultima VII. I'm going to search trough my old belonging to see if I still keep the copy. 

There is a free remake out for Ultima 5, by the way. It has voice acting and 3d graphics. Very, very well made. Loved every second of it.

[moilami]

Meltemph wrote...

That same "someone" also bragged about how good Bioware are at the storylines and the companions, and that that is a huge point in their favor.

Doesn't change the fact you are trying to claim ownership of what is a "true" rpg. Is it that hard to jsut say, I prefer "insert game here" type of RPG's? Yes, it is, because you apparently think it adds more meaning to "your" games of choice, because God forbid not everyone enjoyed those games as much as you did.

I have asked once why it is so offensive if I say DA2 is dumbed down for masses. Now I ask it second time.

If I say DA2 has been dumbed down for masses I am not saying I am better person or you are worse person. So why take offense? How I can talk about DA2 without being "offensive"? Should I use some kind of news-speak? Secret language? What?

[John Epler]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Ultima VII was the best Ultima, anyways.

This is scientific fact. I have charts.

Now you remind me of Ultima VII. I'm going to search trough my old belonging to see if I still keep the copy. 

Ha! I spent a long time tracking down a copy of the Ultima Collection a good while back. Now, of course, I can barely play them on my computer, but still. At least I own them.

@Rawgrim - I know that Pagan came with a coin. I think VII came with the Fellowship Amulet as well as the standard cloth map. I still have the latter, no idea what happened to the former.

Anyways, I'm pulling this off-topic myself.  Let's return to our regularly scheduled discussion.

[Elsariel]

Yrkoon wrote...

TwistedComplex wrote...

Someone tell me, what about this game isn't an RPG

I would REALLY like to know

Well, cuz of the demo.

It was 100%  linear and  99%  combat 

Therefore  DA2 will  be the same and thus not an RPG.  Fact.  lol

I hope that's sarcasm.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

@ johnsen1972

im pretty sure that what they said is not based off of a review but of just the demo...

[Rawgrim]

Meltemph wrote...

Lack of choices being removed etc, an compared it to older games. Never said DA2 was better or worse.

But you can also find older games with less choice. You are cherry picking the good ones(the ones you perceive as good) to compare to the "lack of choice". Which is fine as long as you are being straight up about it, by just saying I prefer "insert game style here" instead of the passive aggressive "it's in decline" or something similar that I see so often just gets old.

I just wish people would just say "I prefer this way" instead of "I prefer this way, because its more RPG like" or in that vein. It only serves to try and add more authority to ones opinion, which it doesn't really do in the 1st place..

Quite right. Older games have flaws too. No question about it. But as I said, i was listing up stuff that might explain why someone would thing the classic rpg genre is in decline. And to make my points clear, I added examples. It doesn`t make me an authority on the subject, though.

[Dr. wonderful]

moilami wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

That same "someone" also bragged about how good Bioware are at the storylines and the companions, and that that is a huge point in their favor.

Doesn't change the fact you are trying to claim ownership of what is a "true" rpg. Is it that hard to jsut say, I prefer "insert game here" type of RPG's? Yes, it is, because you apparently think it adds more meaning to "your" games of choice, because God forbid not everyone enjoyed those games as much as you did.

I have asked once why it is so offensive if I say DA2 is dumbed down for masses. Now I ask it second time.

If I say DA2 has been dumbed down for masses I am not saying I am better person or you are worse person. So why take offense? How I can talk about DA2 without being "offensive"? Should I use some kind of news-speak? Secret language? What?

Novajo code.


It's the only way to get something off your chest

[Dr. wonderful]

Elsariel wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

TwistedComplex wrote...

Someone tell me, what about this game isn't an RPG

I would REALLY like to know

Well, cuz of the demo.

It was 100%  linear and  99%  combat 

Therefore  DA2 will  be the same and thus not an RPG.  Fact.  lol

I hope that's sarcasm.

Can't you tell?