1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Johnsen1972]

slimgrin wrote...

Bioware is not the flagship of RPG's.

Well it was for me, last years with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

[Mezinger]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

More repetitive than ME1's mechanic of point gun in general direction of target, hold down trigger until it dies?

IMO, yes... maybe because you didn't have to search for clips, after / during every battle, which was repetitive. Maybe because you didn't have to run from cover to cover which was repetitive. Maybe because you didn't have to pop up and down like whack a mole, which was... maybe because every room design where a fire fight was going to happen now had to have random crates in the middle of the room which was...

So, IMO, they took a lesser-action-ie combat mechanic and threw a bunch of repetitive window dressing at it to make it  more action-ie, more like a FPS, and IMO it was a bad design choice. Which ultimately  made ME2 feel less unique, less RPG-ie and essentially just drew out the combat encounters without making them significantly more fun, only making them significantly more repetitive. 

You could argue that from what we've seen of DA:2 combat they've made the same poor, IMO, design choice... 3 repetitive animations for each class that we see over and over again, larger number of enemies, auto-attack toggle... etc... The thinking is this, "Lot's of people didn't like the combat from the original, how can we make it look or feel like what they are use to, from more action-ie type games?" IMO it results (at least in ME2) in a bad middle of the road combat mechanic that doesn't appeal to me. 

I'm reserving judgement on whether DA2 feel into the same trap until the game comes out... We'll see March 8th!

Modifié par Mezinger, 04 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Taleroth]

Mezinger wrote...

maybe because every room design where a fire fight was going to happen now had to have random crates in the middle of the room which was...

Mass Effect 1 had that, too.  Literally everywhere.  You may have not noticed it simply because the AI was too stupid to actually make use of cover, instead preferring suicide charges.

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deciding that Dragon Age II is not a classic RPG based on a 30 minute demo is stupid. In the first 30 minutes of BGI, you get to walk around a single, tiny environment, find someone a book and fight rats with a single character.

Rats are critical elements of the rpg experience.

[AkiKishi]

Mezinger wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

While I agree with the general sentiment of the article I don't agree with this:

"While playing the demo, pausing the game to issue an attack on an enemy just felt completely ridiculous, as they would have already landed 3 attacks on you by the time you have done one. The only possible way to do it is to pause and unpause the game every half a second, therefore forcing players to simply mash buttons until the enemy is dead. Dragon Age 2 is a real-time Action-RPG, and so having the pause-play (that only really works with the slower pace of turn-based RPG’s) is just an unnecessary feature rather than another way to play through the game."

1 reason is that I still used pause and play during the demo, bringing up the skills wheel for potions, and healing spells primarily, as well as party target selection.

2nd reason is the demo on consoles didn't have auto-attack enabled the retail version does should make a big difference.

3rd they've landed 3 attacks on you while you do one...? The game is paused so that doesn't seem to make any sense.

I love the skill wheel if they took it out altogether that would be a huge loss.

My guess on the 3rd point is the act of pausing and unpausing takes player time meanwhile the computer is still doing things.  I didn't really notice this, so it may be a console thing.  So wtihout auto-attack you stop to pause, and you lose a small bit of time in the fight menawhile the computer is still pounding on you. 

That could be. I played on the PS3 and didn't notice this as much as the article author is making it out to be... I think it's probably an exaggeration. However, I did feel like I was sorely missing the auto-attack toggle. 

What he's basically saying is this.

Hit the pause key, as you are doing that because of the speed the enemy got in an attack, click for your action, unpause then by the time you reposistion you have been attacked again. If you view some PC combat videos you can actually see it in action. Where as in DA you had about 6 seconds between attacks, now it's more like 1 second.

I've watched PC combat video's that are around 6 minutes of combat and 4 minutes of pausing, or maybe it's 2 to 8 anyway they pause an awful lot.

[WuWeiWu]

@article

I've never recorded single-player game play before; First Person Shooters yes, but never single-player games. The pause-play tactic is even more vital than it was before, and exults in the new system as a tactical device. The camera angle may not always be the best, but if you're going to snivel and moan about something, snivel and moan about the right thing - the pause-play is not the right thing.

So, as I've done with multiplayer games, I'll record DA2 gameplay when I get my copy and show these awful players why they have no place talking shop over something they don't understand. Again, speaking to the author of the article.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 04 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[Mezinger]

Taleroth wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

maybe because every room design where a fire fight was going to happen now had to have random crates in the middle of the room which was...

Mass Effect 1 had that, too.  Literally everywhere.  You may have not noticed it simply because the AI was too stupid to actually make use of cover, instead preferring suicide charges.

I know they certainly did in the side mission bits and in the battle with the matriarch which were there for the biotic power / complications... but even if there were just as many creates in ME1 for whatever reason it was much more apparent than in ME2, an therefore seemingly less repetitive. 

[NRO TYN]

Realy im conflicted on this issue DAO was realy a great game that got realy good review and i love everything about it, so why did bioware change something around for Da2? I mean like i like the looks of Da2 now but i realy wanna know why and who made the decision to change things.

[ArcanistLibram]

I love how almost all of that article is factually wrong.

You customize a pre-set character instead of creating your own? Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, KotOR and DAO did the same thing.

The writer doesn't know how to use the pause button? Not my problem. It worked fine for me.

And hey look, the author thinks that DAO was a perfect game. It wasn't. It just happened to come out first. It's full of giant gaping flaws from beginning to end. The flaws don't make the game any less enjoyable, but it's generally considered advisable not to make the same mistakes twice.

[F4d3s]

ive been saying this over and over again..glad editors share the same view..

There is no doubt that these will be great games, but the problem is that they hav been  sculpted to what will sell, rather than making the gaming experience that a number of players are struggling to find nowadays. The market has
always been driven by sales, but nowadays the publishers and producers are sacrificing genres in order to make more money. As said previously, Dragon Age: Origins was a commercial success so there was no real need
to change the game so dramatically. This declination is inextricably tied in to the popularity of consoles over PCs amongst today’s gamers. As gaming spreads to mass audiences, producers and publishers are lured by the money that comes along with it. In this case it seems that EA  have encouraged BioWare to open up the game to a bigger audience, and in doing so have lost many aspects of the genre it once was.

[WuWeiWu]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I love how almost all of that article is factually wrong.

You customize a pre-set character instead of creating your own? Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, KotOR and DAO did the same thing.

The writer doesn't know how to use the pause button? Not my problem. It worked fine for me.

And hey look, the author thinks that DAO was a perfect game. It wasn't. It just happened to come out first. It's full of giant gaping flaws from beginning to end. The flaws don't make the game any less enjoyable, but it's generally considered advisable not to make the same mistakes twice.

Quoted because it's a good quote.

[F4d3s]

Veracruz wrote...

I want my RPGs to be good and interesting. The flavor (classic, action, sim) is irrelevant as long as they are good and interesting for me.

i hope so too but based on known game statistics (dialogue, game play length, etc) it seems like alot of 'meat and potatoes' has also been replaced by cinematics..

[lv12medic]

Ziggeh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Deciding that Dragon Age II is not a classic RPG based on a 30 minute demo is stupid. In the first 30 minutes of BGI, you get to walk around a single, tiny environment, find someone a book and fight rats with a single character.

Rats are critical elements of the rpg experience.

Exactly, Rat Punching Games need rats.  Otherwise they fail.

[WuWeiWu]

F4d3s wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

I want my RPGs to be good and interesting. The flavor (classic, action, sim) is irrelevant as long as they are good and interesting for me.

i hope so too but based on known game statistics (dialogue, game play length, etc) it seems like alot of 'meat and potatoes' has also been replaced by cinematics..

Because cinematics are just blank spaces within a story arc, right?

[AkiKishi]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I love how almost all of that article is factually wrong.

You customize a pre-set character instead of creating your own? Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, KotOR and DAO did the same thing.

The writer doesn't know how to use the pause button? Not my problem. It worked fine for me.

And hey look, the author thinks that DAO was a perfect game. It wasn't. It just happened to come out first. It's full of giant gaping flaws from beginning to end. The flaws don't make the game any less enjoyable, but it's generally considered advisable not to make the same mistakes twice.

True of PST and KOTOR, with hindsight. Not true of the others.

Easy way to test. You know I'll play Hawke in DA2, you know I would play TNO in PST. You know post twist I will be playing Revan in KOTOR. But you have no idea who my character in DA or BG would be.

It's you who is factually wrong here.

[Wissenschaft]

Theres is a flaw in this speed comparison. In DA:O even with the delay between attack, as long as an attack rolled a hit it would hit you no matter where you were. In DA2 you can dodge attacks, not the weak fast basic attacks of grunts because you don't need to dodge those. But you can dodge the slow attacks of powerful elites and bosses. That a vast improvement in my eyes.

[ArcanistLibram]

BobSmith101 wrote...

True of PST and KOTOR, with hindsight. Not true of the others.

Easy way to test. You know I'll play Hawke in DA2, you know I would play TNO in PST. You know post twist I will be playing Revan in KOTOR. But you have no idea who my character in DA or BG would be.

It's you who is factually wrong here.

The Warden is the Warden and the Bhaalspawn is the Bhaalspawn. You have some control over the Warden with the Origins, but the Origins themselves are pre-set characters, and there's no player input at all over the character's background in Baldur's Gate.

[AkiKishi]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

True of PST and KOTOR, with hindsight. Not true of the others.

Easy way to test. You know I'll play Hawke in DA2, you know I would play TNO in PST. You know post twist I will be playing Revan in KOTOR. But you have no idea who my character in DA or BG would be.

It's you who is factually wrong here.

The Warden is the Warden and the Bhaalspawn is the Bhaalspawn. You have some control over the Warden with the Origins, but the Origins themselves are pre-set characters, and there's no player input at all over the character's background in Baldur's Gate.

Thats where you are wrong. That's only one aspect of the character. Like I said if you can't name who I played in BG and DA you have no arguement that DA2 is the same.

Pre-generated background and pre-generated character are not the same thing. The guy who wrote the article got it right, you got it wrong.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[spartan_shaun]

u cant judge the game on a demo! it jst gives u a glimpse of wats to come! and i felt the need to pause the game plenty of times' so u cant really say for every1 it is jst an action game! only thing that im worried abt is that its mostly in kirkwall! as i do love the whole traveling to different places village, dungeons' forests and so on! but bioware hasnt let me down yet so im still looking forward to this game!!!

[F4d3s]

WuWeiWu wrote...

F4d3s wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

I want my RPGs to be good and interesting. The flavor (classic, action, sim) is irrelevant as long as they are good and interesting for me.

i hope so too but based on known game statistics (dialogue, game play length, etc) it seems like alot of 'meat and potatoes' has also been replaced by cinematics..

Because cinematics are just blank spaces within a story arc, right?

cinematic substitutions instead of dialogue choices and gameplay length, etc, in my opinion, makes the game more linear and less personal. Im specfulating of course until the game comes out and i hope im wrong.

[AkiKishi]

spartan_shaun wrote...

u cant judge the game on a demo! it jst gives u a glimpse of wats to come! and i felt the need to pause the game plenty of times' so u cant really say for every1 it is jst an action game! only thing that im worried abt is that its mostly in kirkwall! as i do love the whole traveling to different places village, dungeons' forests and so on! but bioware hasnt let me down yet so im still looking forward to this game!!!

Like I said to a guy on anoter thread, that demo was not for you. You had already made up your mind anyway. Demos are for people who either know nothing about the game, or are not sure whether or not to buy it.
Ironically prior to the demo I was ready to buy DA2, after the demo I'm choosing to rent it.

[John Epler]

F4d3s wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

F4d3s wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

I want my RPGs to be good and interesting. The flavor (classic, action, sim) is irrelevant as long as they are good and interesting for me.

i hope so too but based on known game statistics (dialogue, game play length, etc) it seems like alot of 'meat and potatoes' has also been replaced by cinematics..

Because cinematics are just blank spaces within a story arc, right?

cinematic substitutions instead of dialogue choices and gameplay length, etc, in my opinion, makes the game more linear and less personal. Im specfulating of course until the game comes out and i hope im wrong.

Actually, the way we do our cinematics, the writers go in, write everything, and then the cinematics guys go in and turn certain lines into cutscenes - if we feel something needs emphasis, we'll do some camera trickery, animation timing, character movement, that sort of thing.

You're still getting the same amount of dialogue and writing as you otherwise would, only we try to make it more visually interesting, and where we can - we show instead of tell. Saying 'HE IS GOING CRAZY' is a less effective narrative technique than showing he's going crazy with the use of things such as hitchcock zooms, camera tilts and specific gestures.

'Cinematics', in this case, rarely refers to the traditional lengthy non-interactive cutscene, but rather responses and dialogues that are in the game either way, just in this case we add a little extra polish to make the important moments feel important.

[spartan_shaun]

BobSmith101 wrote...

spartan_shaun wrote...

u cant judge the game on a demo! it jst gives u a glimpse of wats to come! and i felt the need to pause the game plenty of times' so u cant really say for every1 it is jst an action game! only thing that im worried abt is that its mostly in kirkwall! as i do love the whole traveling to different places village, dungeons' forests and so on! but bioware hasnt let me down yet so im still looking forward to this game!!!

Like I said to a guy on anoter thread, that demo was not for you. You had already made up your mind anyway. Demos are for people who either know nothing about the game, or are not sure whether or not to buy it.
Ironically prior to the demo I was ready to buy DA2, after the demo I'm choosing to rent it.

exactly!! for me i was goin to buy it aswel! but after the demo i still am! i love rpgs! but im an action fan too! heres hoping for some traveling in the game!!!!

[Merced652]

WuWeiWu wrote...

F4d3s wrote...

Veracruz wrote...

I want my RPGs to be good and interesting. The flavor (classic, action, sim) is irrelevant as long as they are good and interesting for me.

i hope so too but based on known game statistics (dialogue, game play length, etc) it seems like alot of 'meat and potatoes' has also been replaced by cinematics..

Because cinematics are just blank spaces within a story arc, right?

When a game as over 3000 of them; yes. They do lose their luster and become just anothe reminder that you aren't in control of your character or what he/she chooses to do in reference to what is taking place on the screen. I'd apologize for wanting to play my character, but Bioware has chosen that i shouldn't have that option in this game, and likely any others given the difficulty in dropping a VO'd for a franchise once it has been picked up.

[Daidoji Tangen]

1. Mass Effect has always been an action-RPG. ME2 focused more on the actioney part than the original did, but it not change from a "classic" RPG to an action RPG.

2. OK. I admit, I suck at DA:O. I honestly don't care I beat 4 times all on Casual. I like the story and I really do not care since I play games for my personal enjoyment and not to show off to strangers or my friends (at least single player games). I put this because I could be wrong.

But didn't you have constantly pause the action to give specific orders to your people in the higher levels? I don't see the difference.

3. DA:O always felt more like an action RPG anyways or at least it should be.