1216 réponses à ce sujet

[SerenityRebirth]

I have a feeling that with each game Bioware makes, there will be some "old schoolers" who are going to scream about the fact that their precious "classic rpg" is no longer "classic." Example: both Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins. Both had the same complaints of making the game more action-oriented, and less loot-micro-manage-every-thing-that-makes-classic-rpgs-classic.

[Yrkoon]

 but back to this article:

 
Given that Dragon Age  2 has only had a maximum of two years in development, many of us  suspected that the game would fall short in some areas.

How long was the development cycle for Baldur's Gate 2?    About...2 years?  yep.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 01:33 .

[AkiKishi]

Ziggeh wrote...

That's exactly what I was thinking. He doesn't seem to be talking about difficulty at all there, merely a preference for a certain speed. If his definition of traditional is a certain pace, then it's bizarrely specific.

What he's saying and I agree with it is that the faster pace and easier difficulty makes pausing less natural than it was in DA. You can still do it, but do you really need to pause that much? 

[PhrosniteAgainROFL]

Trolls get you every time...

[Raniall]

Only time will tell. If DA2 is more commercially successful, then we know who will be right in the end.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Yawn, next...

[Funkjoker]

SerenityRebirth wrote...

Example: both Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins. Both had the same complaints of making the game more action-oriented, and less loot-micro-manage-every-thing-that-makes-classic-rpgs-classic.

Well, RPG[ME2,DA2]actionfying didn't make _any_ previous RPG great. And hardcore RPGplayers know what to expect from a great RPG. We got it in DA, we do not get it in DA2.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[Aidunno]

I think this is a reactionary piece from someone who simply doesn't like the game as they have seen it. Whilst this may be correct some of what is there is correct. Then again I knew people who insisted the AD&D was a major step down from the enjoyability of D&D.

CRPG's will, for many people, only be RPG's if they are direct translation of Pen and Paper RPG's transferred to computers.

[Rixxencaxx]

I am not worried....dragon age 2 will be a fail....

[Funkjoker]

Aidunno wrote...
CRPG's will, for many people, only be RPG's if they are direct translation of Pen and Paper RPG's transferred to computers.

Wrong, DA was none.

[Yrkoon]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Morroian wrote...

The fact that this article appears to be based on playing the demo renders it completely invalid.

because the main game will be totally different, i see

Since this entire article is about  "RPGs", I'd say yes, it will be.   You couldn't really sink your teeth into  that many RPG elements in the demo, since it's  nothing but a snipped 20 minute part  of the prologue.

We will obviously be able to make a more intelligent analysis on whether DA2 conforms to the "classic RPG" mold when we have the full game

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 01:40 .

[Funkjoker]

Yrkoon wrote...
Since this entire article is about  "RPGs", I'd say yes.   You couldn't really sink your teeth into  that many RPG elements in the demo, since it's  nothing but a snipped 20 minute part  of the prologue.

We will obviously be able to make a more intelligent analysis on whether DA2 conforms to the "classic RPG" mold when we have the full game

A demo shows you what you can and _will_ experience in the full game. Many previews already confirmed that there are nuked countries to be seen, as well as other things the crowd's complaining about. There won't be huge changes in 1-2 months of development.

[Gnoster]

So basically Bioware is being blamed that less and less people enjoy that kind of gaming. These kind of so-called analyst should really start taking a look at how a business is run successfully; what Bioware is doing with DA2 will maybe throw off some old-school RPG'ers (of which I am certainly among), but at the same time it will introduce new players to this type of games.
Personally I much prefer this new type of RPG (ME2 and DA2) over DAO; this is for me mainly a question of the amount of time spend on the game, work and family just doesn't allow for it spending hours on end getting through a single quest or even conversation.

[Yrkoon]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Since this entire article is about  "RPGs", I'd say yes.   You couldn't really sink your teeth into  that many RPG elements in the demo, since it's  nothing but a snipped 20 minute part  of the prologue.

We will obviously be able to make a more intelligent analysis on whether DA2 conforms to the "classic RPG" mold when we have the full game

A demo shows you what you can and _will_ experience in the full game. Many previews already confirmed that there are nuked countries to be seen, as well as other things the crowd's complaining about. There won't be huge changes in 1-2 months of development.

<sigh>

There have been at least 700 rebuttals to this fallacy argument on the demo thread.

Consider me too bored to bother  making  rebuttal  #701.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[Funkjoker]

Gnoster wrote...

So basically Bioware is being blamed that less and less people enjoy that kind of gaming. These kind of so-called analyst should really start taking a look at how a business is run successfully; what Bioware is doing with DA2 will maybe throw off some old-school RPG'ers (of which I am certainly among), but at the same time it will introduce new players to this type of games.
Personally I much prefer this new type of RPG (ME2 and DA2) over DAO; this is for me mainly a question of the amount of time spend on the game, work and family just doesn't allow for it spending hours on end getting through a single quest or even conversation.

... which is Mainstream. And DA2's new direction. DA and ME had great sells without getting mainstreamed.

[Rawgrim]

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.
3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto him\\her, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).
5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.

Just mentioning some of the things I have noticed in DA2. Da2 is by far the only game that has been dumbed down over the years though, so Bioware is not to blame for this. Oblivion got severely dumbed down, compared to Morrowind, and Skyrim is being dumbed down even more than Oblivion was. It has been a steady decline over the last 5-6 years. It has even happened bigtime in pen and paper rpgs too, actually. That being said...It doesn`t mean DA2 will be a bad game. As in most bioware games, the strength lies in the story and the companions. And i am looking forward to playing it.

[Ziggeh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

What he's saying and I agree with it is that the faster pace and easier difficulty makes pausing less natural than it was in DA. You can still do it, but do you really need to pause that much?

You don't "need" to pause at all. How much you pause seems to be more about playstyle than anything else.

Could you describe what you mean by "natural"? To me it felt slightly less precise, but then precision barely mattered at all in DA:O, and it seemed to give me more reasons to do so, which I consider a good thing.

[Lumikki]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

... which is Mainstream. And DA2's new direction. DA and ME had great sells without getting mainstreamed.

Meaning  you wanted the games to be design to you taste as way you like it. If Bioware thinks that YOU WAY is good for business, then why aren't they anymore doing the way YOU like it?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 mars 2011 - 01:52 .

[Nighteye2]

the problem is that they have been
sculpted to what will sell, rather than making the gaming experience
that a number of players are struggling to find nowadays. The market has
always been driven by sales, but nowadays the publishers and producers
are sacrificing genres in order to make more money. As said previously,
Dragon Age: Origins was a commercial success so there was no real need
to change the game so dramatically.

Sadly. I'm one of those players who really enjoys classical RPGs - which are getting hard to find these days...

[AkiKishi]

Gnoster wrote...

So basically Bioware is being blamed that less and less people enjoy that kind of gaming. These kind of so-called analyst should really start taking a look at how a business is run successfully; what Bioware is doing with DA2 will maybe throw off some old-school RPG'ers (of which I am certainly among), but at the same time it will introduce new players to this type of games.
Personally I much prefer this new type of RPG (ME2 and DA2) over DAO; this is for me mainly a question of the amount of time spend on the game, work and family just doesn't allow for it spending hours on end getting through a single quest or even conversation.

I think the number is pretty constant BG sold 2 million copies for example (wiki).

What has changed are the costs of making games. Those have gone up dramatically over the years. In DA writing an extrea dialogue line was almost as easy as typing it here. Now you have to pay someone to voice the line, that costs more and involved more work.

If EA thinks they will tap the CoD crowd with stuff like DA2 I'd say they are crazy. DA2 as an RPG won't be judged too harshly because RPGers rarely focus on graphics. The wider gaming community most certainly does. And DA2 fails to measure up.

[Mr. Gerbz]

The entire article couldn't be more true. It's sad to see that most people who replied in this thread are exactly the people EA made Bioware design this gamestyle for. We can't call it an RPG anymore.

I'm really afraid DA3 and ME3 will be even worse thanks to these masses. As in less freedom, less customization, less RPG aspects.

Modifié par Mr. Gerbz, 04 mars 2011 - 01:54 .

[Funkjoker]

Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.
3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).
5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.

Just mentioning some of the things I have noticed in DA2. Da2 is by far the only game that has been dumbed down over the years though, so Bioware is not to blame for this. Oblivion got severely dumbed down, compared to Morrowind, and Skyrim is being dumbed down even more than Oblivion was. It has been a steady decline over the last 5-6 years. It has even happened bigtime in pen and paper rpgs too, actually. That being said...It doesn`t mean DA2 will be a bad game. As in most bioware games, the strength lies in the story and the companions. And i am looking forward to playing it.

Bro, this is superb. Good job! Everything what's especially mainstreamed is bolded, which is... everything, lol.

[Actua]

I've been playing BioWare RPGs for many years now--as most of us likely have. And I do it for four things:
1. Unique, subtle, and well-developed characters
2. Player choice with player consequence
3. In-depth character customization
4. Wonderfully realized worlds

So long as those four things remain intact, they could make a goddamn Cooking Mama game for all I care.

[Aidunno]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Aidunno wrote...
CRPG's will, for many people, only be RPG's if they are direct translation of Pen and Paper RPG's transferred to computers.

Wrong, DA was none.

Assume you mean "one" rather than "none"...

Ok, it wasn't a direct translation of an existing RPG..... They designed it as if a Pen and paper RPG and "brought out" the RPG as pen and paper after the game release. The principle is still correct.

Dragon Age RPG, Set 1