1216 réponses à ce sujet

[randName]

there is so much nostalgic tragedy in this thread that my salt inclined tastebuds is getting overdosed on delicious tears; but do go on, they are not sated yet.

[CharliePrince]

 in all honesty I feel the complete opposite

I fancy myself a true RPG afficionado
-I hate FPS
-I don't consider how many classes you can have an rpg like some people actually do
-I don't consider the "isometric view" the basis of what makes an rpg like others do

I guess my definition of rpg is different from everyone else's.. you think rpg's are probably only for PC platforms and think consoles are nothing but fps games but I actually disagree.. if anything, the consoles are where true rpg's go and focus more on characters, stories, flow, etc rather than what kinda pc you have or what mods you can download or god help me is it dx9 or dx11 crapshoots.. 

DA2 = REAL RPG, a TRUE RPG, kudos to Bioware! I crave rpg's.. NES, SNES, Genesis, PS, PS2, PS3.. RPG's are my thing

and frankly DA2 is THE RETURN OF A REAL ROLE PLAYING GAME

that's how I see it

[Medhia Nox]

Games definitely need to go back to a place where characters aren't even rendered on screen. Just text that tells you that:

"Tunnel Rat does 5 Damage to Hawke."

"Hawke casts Fireblaze, then a spam of:
5 Damage to Tunnel Rat
4 Damage to Tunnel Rat
4 Damage to Tunnel Rat
2 Damage to Tunnel Rat
6 Damage to Tunnel Rat
Tunnel Rat is Slain!

===

That was REAL roleplaying.

[randName]

Heh, people calling BG roleplaying would have been so laughed at from my old FO1 and FO2 community. (& I played BG1&2 this summer, and still like both, but it was never a good roleplaying game, rather a wonderful action/strategy cRPG with, in the case of BG1 a wonderful exploration element).

[moilami]

JemyM wrote...

Which brings the question why they played DA:O in the first place? I think I have the perfect answer to that question.

RPG's (even pnp) is a cool genré because it use to cater to a wide range of very different people. The tactical minds, the puzzlesolvers, the social gamers, players who are in it for the action etc. If you as a game master can only run one type of game, you reduce your gaming group. Sucessful GM's know how to diversify the content, balancing it out, so that each personality around the table get something out from it. No one like everything in the game, but all likes the game as a whole.

I think they bought DA because they saw an awesome trailer, they heard a guildie saying it is good, and it got raving reviews. Then they played it reactions were like this:

- eeew, this is hard.
- died again *alt-F4*
- where should I go now?
- what happens?
- WTF? Why my fireball killed the tank!??????
- why all these texts?
- i don't understand this.
- why my toon move so slowly?
- have raid today in wow, DA is just waste of time
- how i can jump?
- sucks

This is based on someone saying in forums that only a small percentage ever finished the game and major percentage quitted the game before Ostagar. True or not, Blizz BW has tried to make DA2 more appealing to the WoW fans. This is maybe because they feared that if so many quitted the game before finishing it then predictably not very many will be interested to buy DA2 unless it is different and people get to see it is different.

So it appears now that DA2 is

- more cinematics
- less text to read
- more arcadish
- shorter
- easier
- more sarcastical
- more badass

That is, hmm, different direction than I wanted to see sequel of DA to go


Edit: You have by the way written the best postings in these forums.

Modifié par moilami, 06 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

Aidunno wrote...

All those people who cry "It is a decline".. I wonder if they can pinpoint the "classic" features or is it a feeling based on previous experience and nostalgia.

Its not just nostalgia RPGs have certainly changed. Matter of fact I predicted the change on Interplay’s boards and ranted about how they weren’t taking advantage of the console market. I would have been open to the changes
if they were for the better.

It’s easy to pinpoint these changes. Games have become too easy. DA:O is not example. I thought DA:O’s difficulty was fine. Fable is an example of too easy and like DA:O stats showed that most didn’t finish Fable too. Everything else has been mentioned by me or others. You have smaller parties, level scaling, you have action combat that is less developed than the TB combat of the past. I don’t mind action combat if its as good as something like Shenmue, Deus Ex or Mass effect 2 (though I preferred ME 1’s stat influence on the recital), you have unified inventories, auto healing, a lack of non-combat skills, and inflated hp with sponge-bosses.  Worse yet is the encounter design. DA:O is an example of this. With so much depth removed. The time that you would spend strategizing, exploring, managing equiptment was seeming replaced with waves of enamies. 

Modifié par Dorian the Monk of Sune, 06 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[StowyMcStowstow]

I love it when people write articles on a game they haven't even played. What a load of bullocks. I mean... the graphics are improved, the art style has become more original, and the combat has become fast and more intense.

There is nothing wrong with Dragon Age 2, and when I get it on Tuesday I will play the @#%^ out of it.

Also, because because RPG stands for Role Playing Game, anyone should be able to play whatever role they want to, no matter their skill level. That is the whole point of an RPG, to be able to let anyone get in and play their character how they want to, not how some dude with too much free time believes they should play.

Modifié par StowyMcStowstow, 06 mars 2011 - 05:43 .

[Gamemako]

It is abundantly clear that, with the advent of this newfangled Baldur's Gate thing, BioWare has sold out the giant humanoid robot fans in order to make more money.

[JemyM]

CharliePrince wrote...

 in all honesty I feel the complete opposite

I fancy myself a true RPG afficionado
-I hate FPS
-I don't consider how many classes you can have an rpg like some people actually do
-I don't consider the "isometric view" the basis of what makes an rpg like others do

I guess my definition of rpg is different from everyone else's.. you think rpg's are probably only for PC platforms and think consoles are nothing but fps games but I actually disagree.. if anything, the consoles are where true rpg's go and focus more on characters, stories, flow, etc rather than what kinda pc you have or what mods you can download or god help me is it dx9 or dx11 crapshoots.. 

DA2 = REAL RPG, a TRUE RPG, kudos to Bioware! I crave rpg's.. NES, SNES, Genesis, PS, PS2, PS3.. RPG's are my thing

and frankly DA2 is THE RETURN OF A REAL ROLE PLAYING GAME

that's how I see it

You did point out that you do not consider old interfaces to make a RPG. On that point, I am with you. I would like to point out though that I consider Vampire: Bloodlines and Deus Ex to be RPG's, even though they are ran in an FPS style interface.

But reduction of character control comes in three forms;
- Reduction in choice of character
- Reduction of character diversity/customization (skilltrees)
- Reduction of dialogue (context-based dialogue replaced with wheel)

Personally I hail Fallout New Vegas as an attempt to create a "real" roleplaying-game. It have a lot more to do with what opportunities you have to play the game your way with your character, than what kind of interface the game is using. And that comes from someone who hail Fallout 2 to be one of the greatest CRPG's ever made and was openminded about Fallout 3.

[moilami]

randName wrote...

Heh, people calling BG roleplaying would have been so laughed at from my old FO1 and FO2 community. (& I played BG1&2 this summer, and still like both, but it was never a good roleplaying game, rather a wonderful action/strategy cRPG with, in the case of BG1 a wonderful exploration element).

I only put games in genres because of intellectual joy and to help to answer a question "what kind of game it is" someone can ask. I do the same with music. If you don't get what that means I can tell. It means I don't play "RPGs" or "FPSs". I play games. I don't listen "heavy metal" or "rap". I listen music.

DA2 is just one game in the world. There are thousands of games and maybe around 100 games I am interested to play someday. There is also maybe about 10 games I have finished or what can't be finished I want to play. There is much more games I am interested to play than I have time to play.

DA2 is just another game not designed for me. But sadly I went to preorder it and have to play it (unless someone want to buy my Sig Edition.)

[JemyM]

The features gone aren't "classic", it's just that RPG's used to fit a greater range of interests in the past. Those interests are still here and very much alive, it's just that the market follow a different formula now.

The three primary types of content reduced in RPG's (and in the general market) are;

* Creativity (character creation/customization)
Games used to have very strong character customization where no two games were alike. A 9-slot paperdoll inventory was the norm, a long with plenty of character traits, abilities and skills. Not every game managed to do it right, but those who did are games people still talk about. These games offered to play the game YOUR WAY, which allowed almost every player to get a different, and rewarding, experience out of the game. This was enjoyable for CREATIVE gamers who enjoyed making their own stuff. Creative games such as simulators aren't as common today as they used to be.

* Puzzlesolving
classic RPG's were rich with puzzles, usually in the form of dungeon puzzles or traps that had to be solved. RPG's was often inspired by puzzlegames, and it was not uncommon for RPG's and the Adventuregame genré to meld with eachother. This was enjoyable for gamers who felt enjoyment in trying to overcome puzzles and kept on trying until the figured it out (followed a rush). You can still find these kind of games in webbrowsers today and the adventuregame genré still exist, but it is small, and this form of content isn't as common in RPG's as they used to be (even if it does exist in both DA:O and Mass Effect 2).

* Strategy & Tactics
RPG's had a history in tactical games and it was very evident in early CRPG's. Trying to make different charactertypes teamwork to sucess was the key, just like we often do in real life. You put the experts at solving whatever it is they are experts in solving. RPG's translated this into things like areaspells, medics and medicine use, removing traps etc, but in the end TEAMWORK was the key. STRATEGICAL and TACTICAL gamers enjoy to devise strategies and trying unique approaches. Well balanced gamers allowed a such gamer to overcome his partys shortcomings and make sure they hit the opposition where it hurt.
Strategical and Tactical games are almost unheard of on consoles and this type of content have been in decline for quite some time.

I, personally, am not a puzzlesolver. I find such content frustrating. But that doesn't mean that I argue that kind of content have to go away. I benefit from more playing RPG's than less, unless the RPG's cut down on the content I enjoy.

Modifié par JemyM, 06 mars 2011 - 06:03 .

[randName]

moilami wrote...

randName wrote...

Heh, people calling BG roleplaying would have been so laughed at from my old FO1 and FO2 community. (& I played BG1&2 this summer, and still like both, but it was never a good roleplaying game, rather a wonderful action/strategy cRPG with, in the case of BG1 a wonderful exploration element).

I only put games in genres because of intellectual joy and to help to answer a question "what kind of game it is" someone can ask. I do the same with music. If you don't get what that means I can tell. It means I don't play "RPGs" or "FPSs". I play games. I don't listen "heavy metal" or "rap". I listen music.

DA2 is just one game in the world. There are thousands of games and maybe around 100 games I am interested to play someday. There is also maybe about 10 games I have finished or what can't be finished I want to play. There is much more games I am interested to play than I have time to play.

DA2 is just another game not designed for me. But sadly I went to preorder it and have to play it (unless someone want to buy my Sig Edition.)

And exactly why did you pour your heart out to me about this travesty?

[Walker White]

JemyM wrote...

Personally I hail Fallout New Vegas as an attempt to create a "real" roleplaying-game. It have a lot more to do with what opportunities you have to play the game your way with your character, than what kind of interface the game is using. 

Hailing any of the new Fallouts is a perfect example of why these RPG arguments are pointless.  If you want an open-world RPG (something BioWare has never, ever done), then these are great examples of good RPGs.  The story design is highly modular, and so you can experience it in almost any order you want.

However, the combat in the new Fallout games is remarkably shallow.  VATS is largely a design failure, with no tactics beyond "pick the headshot".  There are no controller abilities at all -- a mainstay of combat-heavy RPGs.  And companion coordination is a mess.  So you have less options in this case.

The term "RPG" has covered a broad variety of games over the past 35+ years.  Even just the cRPG market has been highly fractured, as different games focused on different elements of the pen-and-paper RPGs.  It is simply not possible to pick a single game and say that it is the Platonic ideal of RPG.  Anyone who does that is making an argument that the RPG elements they like are more important than the RPG elements that others like.

[randName]

JemyM wrote...
Personally I hail Fallout New Vegas as an attempt to create a "real" roleplaying-game. It have a lot more to do with what opportunities you have to play the game your way with your character, than what kind of interface the game is using. And that comes from someone who hail Fallout 2 to be one of the greatest CRPG's ever made and was openminded about Fallout 3.

Haha, thank you.

& I love FONV, I like Obsidian, I love FO1 and FO2, but oh my.

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Walker White]

JemyM wrote...

* Puzzlesolving
classic RPG's were rich with puzzles, usually in the form of dungeon puzzles or traps that had to be solved. RPG's was often inspired by puzzlegames, and it was not uncommon for RPG's and the Adventuregame genré to meld with eachother. This was enjoyable for gamers who felt enjoyment in trying to overcome puzzles and kept on trying until the figured it out (followed a rush). You can still find these kind of games in webbrowsers today and the adventuregame genré still exist, but it is small, and this form of content isn't as common in RPG's as they used to be (even if it does exist in both DA:O and Mass Effect 2).

The Internet killed this.  The majority of the player market goes online and looks for the walkthrough.  And once you have the solution/walkthrough, there is no longer any challenge.

Jeff Vogel, maker of indie RPGs, has had several blog posts about why the market (even among hardcore cRPG players willing to buy indie RPGs) forcing him to de-emphasize puzzles and riddles.

[randName]

Walker White wrote...

JemyM wrote...

* Puzzlesolving
classic RPG's were rich with puzzles, usually in the form of dungeon puzzles or traps that had to be solved. RPG's was often inspired by puzzlegames, and it was not uncommon for RPG's and the Adventuregame genré to meld with eachother. This was enjoyable for gamers who felt enjoyment in trying to overcome puzzles and kept on trying until the figured it out (followed a rush). You can still find these kind of games in webbrowsers today and the adventuregame genré still exist, but it is small, and this form of content isn't as common in RPG's as they used to be (even if it does exist in both DA:O and Mass Effect 2).

The Internet killed this.  The majority of the player market goes online and looks for the walkthrough.  And once you have the solution/walkthrough, there is no longer any challenge.

Jeff Vogel, maker of indie RPGs, has had several blog posts about why the market (even among hardcore cRPG players willing to buy indie RPGs) forcing him to de-emphasize puzzles and riddles.

Are you certain about this? I haven't experienced that issue, but maybe its just me and my friends that mostly discuss it with each other like in the old days of the old adventure puzzles? 

And sure if there is a puzzle that bore me, I might fetch a solution, but with games like Monkey Island I don't.

Also many of the puzzles in modern games can be fluid, without a strict solution, or so plentiful and simplistic, that you would feel guilty looking it up.

Anyway not into puzzles so much outside seeing people play popcap games at work or at home.

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[moilami]

randName wrote...

moilami wrote...

randName wrote...

Heh, people calling BG roleplaying would have been so laughed at from my old FO1 and FO2 community. (& I played BG1&2 this summer, and still like both, but it was never a good roleplaying game, rather a wonderful action/strategy cRPG with, in the case of BG1 a wonderful exploration element).

I only put games in genres because of intellectual joy and to help to answer a question "what kind of game it is" someone can ask. I do the same with music. If you don't get what that means I can tell. It means I don't play "RPGs" or "FPSs". I play games. I don't listen "heavy metal" or "rap". I listen music.

DA2 is just one game in the world. There are thousands of games and maybe around 100 games I am interested to play someday. There is also maybe about 10 games I have finished or what can't be finished I want to play. There is much more games I am interested to play than I have time to play.

DA2 is just another game not designed for me. But sadly I went to preorder it and have to play it (unless someone want to buy my Sig Edition.)

And exactly why did you pour your heart out to me about this travesty?

You wrote another post in this thread where you talked something about tears of some game to be released not being designed for me (lol), and in this post I quoted I answered politically how much I care if your FO1 and FO2 community would laughed to tears when they heard someone saying BG is RPG.

[elikal71]

I said so myself, and I fully agree to the article. Bioware is more and more leaving RPG virtues behind for some presumes streamlined mass audience. This isn't anymore the great RPG company which made classics like Baldurs Gate. It's more an action game with story.

[JemyM]

Hailing any of the new Fallouts is a perfect example of why these RPG arguments are pointless. If you want an open-world RPG (something BioWare has never, ever done), then these are great examples of good RPGs.  The story design is highly modular, and so you can experience it in almost any order you want.

The original Baldur's Gate 1 was an open-world RPG, else I agree with you.
(Note that I saw F3 inferior to both F1/F2 and F:NV).

However, the combat in the new Fallout games is remarkably shallow.  VATS is largely a design failure, with no tactics beyond "pick the headshot".  There are no controller abilities at all -- a mainstay of combat-heavy RPGs.  And companion coordination is a mess.  So you have less options in this case.

This is true. I hail the character options, and I overlook combat mechanics. That's so typical of me. I usually enjoy character diversity and world content, so much that I can even ignore/overlook broken gameplay.

The term "RPG" has covered a broad variety of games over the past 35+ years.  Even just the cRPG market has been highly fractured, as different games focused on different elements of the pen-and-paper RPGs.  It is simply not possible to pick a single game and say that it is the Platonic ideal of RPG.  Anyone who does that is making an argument that the RPG elements they like are more important than the RPG elements that others like.

After a lot of debate on how a perfect rpg should be in my pnp group, I decided to call each player on the phone, discussing with them what they enjoyed in RPG's. I got five very different answers. Already then I understood that one of the strengths in RPG's is precisely the diversity of it's content.

[RenownedRyan]

The first Dragon Age was dull. Dragon Age II looks more faster paced and exciting. Death to non-linear gameplay. I get tired of spending hour upon hour wandering aimlessly.

[Anathemic]

RenownedRyan wrote...

The first Dragon Age was dull. Dragon Age II looks more faster paced and exciting. Death to non-linear gameplay. I get tired of spending hour upon hour wandering aimlessly.

Pokemon has more linearality

[JemyM]

The Internet killed this.  The majority of the player market goes online and looks for the walkthrough.  And once you have the solution/walkthrough, there is no longer any challenge.

Not entirely true... Some players refuse to use walkthroughs simply because they enjoy figuring it out. It's not about overcoming the challenge for the sake of continuing the game, but overcoming the challenge for the sake of feeling you could.

Personally, I do not find puzzlesolving rewarding for me. I know those who strongly enjoy that kind of stuff though and I am not one to say that their tastes are wrong.

[moilami]

JemyM wrote...

Hailing any of the new Fallouts is a perfect example of why these RPG arguments are pointless. If you want an open-world RPG (something BioWare has never, ever done), then these are great examples of good RPGs.  The story design is highly modular, and so you can experience it in almost any order you want.

The original Baldur's Gate 1 was an open-world RPG, else I agree with you.
(Note that I saw F3 inferior to both F1/F2 and F:NV).

I haven't finished Fallout and only tried briefly Fallout 2. BG won my time in those years, and it has done so ever since. If I want classic RPG I play BG. Have played it maybe 6 times from start to finish. By far more than any other game! And I haven't yet even got started with no-reloads real playthrougs.

Edit: Have 2x BG1 and BG2, the original releases and combo packs. Have Icewind Dales, have Fallouts, have who knows what and BG1 is the only game of those I have finished lol. The rest I have barely tried how char creation looks.

Edit: Talk about good days after retirement 

Modifié par moilami, 06 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[In Exile]

JemyM wrote...
The science behind my brain suggest that I have a strong connection between using my orbito-frontal cortex (cognitive processing and decision-making) and my nucleus accumbens (pleasure center). This means that the brains pleasure hormone, dopamine, is released when I comprehend a situation, devise strategies, figuring things out.

To correct the outright ridiculous BS science here, the OFC-NAc is part of a reward loop that handles responses to conditioning and expectation as well as some parts of decision making (this includes effectively all decisions, meaning that if you're playing a hack & slash game, "deciding" to go left over right activates the OFC).

To put it in simple terms, the OFC-NAc loop fires like mad if you're a rat pressing a lever to get food pellets. Which is about as far removed from the fiction you're trying to spin as possible.

There's certainly a neural basis to enjoyment of legitimately complex problems, but whatever you're peddling isn't it.

[moilami]

In Exile wrote...

JemyM wrote...
The science behind my brain suggest that I have a strong connection between using my orbito-frontal cortex (cognitive processing and decision-making) and my nucleus accumbens (pleasure center). This means that the brains pleasure hormone, dopamine, is released when I comprehend a situation, devise strategies, figuring things out.

To correct the outright ridiculous BS science here, the OFC-NAc is part of a reward loop that handles responses to conditioning and expectation as well as some parts of decision making (this includes effectively all decisions, meaning that if you're playing a hack & slash game, "deciding" to go left over right activates the OFC).

To put it in simple terms, the OFC-NAc loop fires like mad if you're a rat pressing a lever to get food pellets. Which is about as far removed from the fiction you're trying to spin as possible.

There's certainly a neural basis to enjoyment of legitimately complex problems, but whatever you're peddling isn't it.

You forget that getting an interesting challenge or problem and then solving it is rewarding for some. As opposite to the masses who behave indeed like rats I have observed. They need constant rewards for nothing and that's why in current games there pops those 'achievement earned, talked to NPC' "achievements". Or "facerolled on keyboard, slaying dumb gimp mobs - reward: loot them".

But if you try to offer them a real challenge it is "awful heavy-thinking" lol.

Modifié par moilami, 06 mars 2011 - 06:40 .