1216 réponses à ce sujet

[JemyM]

There's certainly a neural basis to enjoyment of legitimately complex problems, but whatever you're peddling isn't it.

Good, because that it's so was the key point, not how it works. I look forward to your comment on that point.

[JemyM]

I haven't finished Fallout and only tried briefly Fallout 2. BG won my time in those years, and it has done so ever since. If I want classic RPG I play BG. Have played it maybe 6 times from start to finish. By far more than any other game! And I haven't yet even got started with no-reloads real playthrougs.

Edit: Have 2x BG1 and BG2, the original releases and combo packs. Have Icewind Dales, have Fallouts, have who knows what and BG1 is the only game of those I have finished lol. The rest I have barely tried how char creation looks.

Edit: Talk about good days after retirement 

I actually ran through all of biowares, black isle's, troikas and obsidians RPG's. Baldur's Gate I and Fallout 2 being the two most played. I have my favorites and my not-so-favorites. I also own all of them, except for Alpha Protocol which I might take up next summer.

[In Exile]

moilami wrote...
You forget that getting an interesting challenge or problem and then solving it is rewarding for some.

No, I don't. In fact, I literally end my post saying this.

As opposite to the masses who behave indeed like rats I have observed. They need constant rewards for nothing and that's why in current games there pops those 'achievement earned, talked to NPC' "achievements". Or "facerolled on keyboard, slaying dumb gimp mobs - reward: loot them".

Yeah, games like BG and IWD and the Witcher (like most hardcore RPGs) are pretty devious in treating their user base like rats and relying on terribly simple mechanics, but that isn't a bad thing.

JemyM wrote...
Good, because that it's so was the key point,
not how it works. I look forward to your comment on that point.

You didn't say anything of substance other than misrepresent a mechanism and say that you like complexity. If you want to discuss what complexity in problem solving is and why RPGs are not complex at all, I would be more than happy too talk about it. My research area is (or was, technically) in problem solving.

[JemyM]

You didn't say anything of substance other than misrepresent a mechanism and say that you like complexity. If you want to discuss what complexity in problem solving is and why RPGs are not complex at all, I would be more than happy too talk about it. My research area is (or was, technically) in problem solving.

So I guess you had nothing to say. Ok, bye.

[moilami]

JemyM wrote...

I haven't finished Fallout and only tried briefly Fallout 2. BG won my time in those years, and it has done so ever since. If I want classic RPG I play BG. Have played it maybe 6 times from start to finish. By far more than any other game! And I haven't yet even got started with no-reloads real playthrougs.

Edit: Have 2x BG1 and BG2, the original releases and combo packs. Have Icewind Dales, have Fallouts, have who knows what and BG1 is the only game of those I have finished lol. The rest I have barely tried how char creation looks.

Edit: Talk about good days after retirement 

I actually ran through all of biowares, black isle's, troikas and obsidians RPG's. Baldur's Gate I and Fallout 2 being the two most played. I have my favorites and my not-so-favorites. I also own all of them, except for Alpha Protocol which I might take up next summer.

Well, I have been hooked on Nethack 1.x since I tried it in school was it '87? Still trying to win it without reading spoilers lol. Nethack is the most "evil" teacher of virtues there is (actually Slash'em since Nethack feels like dumbed down Slash-em, but I am obsessed to win Nethack playing Tourist without reading spoilers.)

So for many years Nethack (with BG) has fulfilled my gaming needs regarding RPGs. Then there is FPS which can be excellent games, the Flight Sim, and several old school turn based strategy games.

Anyway, I have had always plan to win all RPGs, and still have. The progression is just very slow.

(And anyone lolling about my challenge to win Nethack as Tourist without reading spoilers, heh, just try it yourself


Edit: Actually my goal in Nethack is to not win the game but just tame a horde of different creatures and have fun in the dungeon. But in theory that leads eventually to the situation where I "win" the game.

Modifié par moilami, 06 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Grunk]

JemyM wrote...

You didn't say anything of substance other than misrepresent a mechanism and say that you like complexity. If you want to discuss what complexity in problem solving is and why RPGs are not complex at all, I would be more than happy too talk about it. My research area is (or was, technically) in problem solving.

So I guess you had nothing to say. Ok, bye.

He was pointing out how you misrepresented something to make your point greater than it was. I think it was worth him saying, especially since according to the mechanism you were bring up, "pressing A for something awesome to happen" is MORE rewarding. It was just a faulty example, no need to be so dismissive.

[JemyM]

He was pointing out how you misrepresented something to make your point greater than it was. I think it was worth him saying, especially since according to the mechanism you were bring up, "pressing A for something awesome to happen" is MORE rewarding. It was just a faulty example, no need to be so dismissive.

The summary "You didn't say anything of substance" was all I needed.
If he had expert insight in the field he would have corrected the fault, but still be able to comprehend the point.

[Sylvius the Mad]

dragon_83 wrote...

They sold out so they can make more money.

I'm not even sure what that means.  Arguably they did that when they switched from medical software to games - they did that because there was more money in games.

I don't see anyone pining for the days of BioWare's Gastroenterological Patient Simulator.

[Grunk]

JemyM wrote...

He was pointing out how you misrepresented something to make your point greater than it was. I think it was worth him saying, especially since according to the mechanism you were bring up, "pressing A for something awesome to happen" is MORE rewarding. It was just a faulty example, no need to be so dismissive.

The summary "You didn't say anything of substance" was all I needed.
If he had expert insight in the field he would have corrected the fault, but still be able to comprehend the point.

I find that people who have more expertise in fields tend to seriously have a hard time understanding what I'm getting at when I make a similar error, actually. I think the "not saying anything of substance" bit could've been left out, but I appreciate his point anyways.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

But the problem with this view is that you introduce a very high technical barrier for most people, in that they have to be intimately familiar with the hardware market, comparative advantages between software, technical details of performance and have the basic ability and will to assemble their PC in the first place.

Every time we have this PC vs. console debate re: price, the issue that gets lost in the shuffle is the nature of the buyer. For some people, who have the expertiese and time, the PC can be a much better deal. For people that lack all of this, then a console is a better deal.

Yes.  People who don't care to know how their appliances work would probably, on balance, prefer console gaming.

[Beerfish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

dragon_83 wrote...

They sold out so they can make more money.

I'm not even sure what that means.  Arguably they did that when they switched from medical software to games - they did that because there was more money in games.

I don't see anyone pining for the days of BioWare's Gastroenterological Patient Simulator.

No they did that because they were long time game fans.  Being realisitic and smart people they would probably make more money long term as Doctors than making games.  Happily for them due to some good fortune and some smart moves they were successful.

[DW2511]

You know, for a product that is meant to provide a 100% personal experience (being a bloody VIDEO GAME with no MP component), DA2 sure gets people riled up and activistic.

You people do realise that the way i perceive this game has no effect on the way you perceive it during gameplay, and vice versa?

[Beerfish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

But the problem with this view is that you introduce a very high technical barrier for most people, in that they have to be intimately familiar with the hardware market, comparative advantages between software, technical details of performance and have the basic ability and will to assemble their PC in the first place.

Every time we have this PC vs. console debate re: price, the issue that gets lost in the shuffle is the nature of the buyer. For some people, who have the expertiese and time, the PC can be a much better deal. For people that lack all of this, then a console is a better deal.

Yes.  People who don't care to know how their appliances work would probably, on balance, prefer console gaming.

A factor that is not brought up enough in the console vs pc discussion is playing comfort.  That is a major factor in why I have played more console games recently than pc games.  I find I enjoy playing in my easy chair, with by big screen tv and surround sound.  This has trumped other factors in pcs vs consoles for me.

[JemyM]

DW2511 wrote...

You know, for a product that is meant to provide a 100% personal experience (being a bloody VIDEO GAME with no MP component), DA2 sure gets people riled up and activistic.

You people do realise that the way i perceive this game has no effect on the way you perceive it during gameplay, and vice versa?

If I whine enough on the forums I might be able to ruin your DA3.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

No they did that because they were long time game fans.  Being realisitic and smart people they would probably make more money long term as Doctors than making games.  Happily for them due to some good fortune and some smart moves they were successful.

I recall them saying that they switched to games because it was more lucrative.

Beerfish wrote...

A factor that is not brought up enough in the console vs pc discussion is playing comfort.  That is a major factor in why I have played more console games recently than pc games.  I find I enjoy playing in my easy chair, with by big screen tv and surround sound.  This has trumped other factors in pcs vs consoles for me.

Of course, you can set up a PC like that.

I vastly prefer sitting in an office chair at a desk for my gaming, particularly in a small room where I won't be interrupted.  So much so that I even put my 360 in that room and wired it into my computer monitor.

If you like one environment more, you can game there regardless of your platform.

[In Exile]

JemyM wrote...
The summary "You didn't say anything of
substance" was all I needed.
If he had expert insight in the field he
would have corrected the fault, but still be able to comprehend the
point.

I'm not sure what your point is. You think you like complexity. But it isn't clear what you consider complex. RPGs (especially older RPGs) are not very complex. They have a high barrier of entry, in that you need to learn a fair amount to understand that you are doing, but the actual problem solving that you're doing once you've understood the constraints is not significant.

You're wrong on substance (both regarding neuroscience and complexity in RPGs). If all you wanted to say was that there are groups with different tastes out there and that Bioware is targeting one versus another, that's not a very interesting point.

The stuff on capitalism is, IMO, also mistaken, but it didn't bother me as much as the science (and it isn't something I've studied in any great capacity) so I didn't see why I should comment on that. I didn't want to derail the thread, just make sure that if anyone was reading it, they were not misled on outright objective fact.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yes.  People who don't care to know how their appliances work would probably, on balance, prefer console gaming.

It's also fair to add that for many people it would be unreasonable to expect them to know, for a variety of reasons.

[Jitter]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

I love it when people write articles on a game they haven't even played. What a load of bullocks. I mean... the graphics are improved, the art style has become more original, and the combat has become fast and more intense.

There is nothing wrong with Dragon Age 2, and when I get it on Tuesday I will play the @#%^ out of it.

Also, because because RPG stands for Role Playing Game, anyone should be able to play whatever role they want to, no matter their skill level. That is the whole point of an RPG, to be able to let anyone get in and play their character how they want to, not how some dude with too much free time believes they should play.

Did you read what you typed.

Yes anyone shold be able to play whatever role they want.
So why did they force the players to be human . And make all of the classes the same in effect , and differ only in attack animation?

i will be interested to see your post 3 weeks from now.
feel free to quote me on it, im ready to be wrong.

But i won't be , the title will be instantly forgetable.
And these forums will fill wih a combination of disapointment/rage/apathy.

The fanboi will become a minority.  And a whole new wave of what shold they bring back for DA3 , and how to improve DA2 , will emerge .

Fact , there is someone pissing on your shoes and telling you it's raining . ......

[JemyM]

I find that people who have more expertise in fields tend to seriously have a hard time understanding what I'm getting at when I make a similar error, actually. I think the "not saying anything of substance" bit could've been left out, but I appreciate his point anyways.

I am active in psychology myself, although not biological psychology. Whether he was right or wrong in his comments is beyond me, but I doubt that anyone who have the education would fail to grasp arguments related to personality psychology and cognitive psychology.

[moilami]

DW2511 wrote...

You know, for a product that is meant to provide a 100% personal experience (being a bloody VIDEO GAME with no MP component), DA2 sure gets people riled up and activistic.

You people do realise that the way i perceive this game has no effect on the way you perceive it during gameplay, and vice versa?

I blame Internet! IRL you can't argue anything, but in Internetz you can argue anything!

[Beerfish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

No they did that because they were long time game fans.  Being realisitic and smart people they would probably make more money long term as Doctors than making games.  Happily for them due to some good fortune and some smart moves they were successful.

I recall them saying that they switched to games because it was more lucrative.

Beerfish wrote...

A factor that is not brought up enough in the console vs pc discussion is playing comfort.  That is a major factor in why I have played more console games recently than pc games.  I find I enjoy playing in my easy chair, with by big screen tv and surround sound.  This has trumped other factors in pcs vs consoles for me.

Of course, you can set up a PC like that.

I vastly prefer sitting in an office chair at a desk for my gaming, particularly in a small room where I won't be interrupted.  So much so that I even put my 360 in that room and wired it into my computer monitor.

If you like one environment more, you can game there regardless of your platform.

Nope, not for me.  I am not going to bring my pc into the living room or have long chords flapping around eveywhere conneting my pc in my office to my living room.  I'm also not prepared to take the inevitable hours of research and trying to get the set up to work and the inevitable having to switch things or plug, uplug every time I want to play a game in the living room vs working on a spreadsheet  in my office.

[In Exile]

JemyM wrote...
I am active in psychology myself, although not biological psychology. Whether he was right or wrong in his comments is beyond me, but I doubt that anyone who have the education would fail to grasp arguments related to personality psychology and cognitive psychology.

What you said had no bearing on cognitive. The only thing you said regarding personality of note was to introduce an idea of individual differences.

[Walker White]

JemyM wrote...

If I whine enough on the forums I might be able to ruin your DA3.

BioWare has gotten wise to that ruse.  They trust statistical analysis of player traces over isolated forum-goers.

[moilami]

Jitter wrote...

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

I love it when people write articles on a game they haven't even played. What a load of bullocks. I mean... the graphics are improved, the art style has become more original, and the combat has become fast and more intense.

There is nothing wrong with Dragon Age 2, and when I get it on Tuesday I will play the @#%^ out of it.

Also, because because RPG stands for Role Playing Game, anyone should be able to play whatever role they want to, no matter their skill level. That is the whole point of an RPG, to be able to let anyone get in and play their character how they want to, not how some dude with too much free time believes they should play.

Did you read what you typed.

Yes anyone shold be able to play whatever role they want.
So why did they force the players to be human . And make all of the classes the same in effect , and differ only in attack animation?

i will be interested to see your post 3 weeks from now.
feel free to quote me on it, im ready to be wrong.

But i won't be , the title will be instantly forgetable.
And these forums will fill wih a combination of disapointment/rage/apathy.

The fanboi will become a minority.  And a whole new wave of what shold they bring back for DA3 , and how to improve DA2 , will emerge .

Fact , there is someone pissing on your shoes and telling you it's raining . ......

I actually lolled at that "when I get it on Tuesday I will play the @#%^ out of it", and I still find it funny. I wonder was it said in rage. Apparently was, which leaves me puzzled. What was the point in that statement?

[HonourBorn]

play on a higher difficulty than, i set the difficulty higher in the demo and i wasnt able to win the second fight against the troll without pausing to issue commands. That wasn't so hard to figure out was it? these threads are pathetic.

[moilami]

Walker White wrote...

JemyM wrote...

If I whine enough on the forums I might be able to ruin your DA3.

BioWare has gotten wise to that ruse.  They trust statistical analysis of player traces over isolated forum-goers.

Hopefully! Since I have my trust on that majority of players like big boobs. And that would lead chicks in games having big boobs, even though very vocal minority is very angry in forums of big boobs in games.


Edit: Boobs being discussed. I should make a law saying when a thread goes to boob discussions.

Modifié par moilami, 06 mars 2011 - 08:09 .