1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Itkovian]

Premise of the article is erroneous from the get go: nothing has changed in the pause and play mechanics. Sure, on console the default option is to constantly mash a button to attack, but you can use auto-attack instead.

And once you use auto-attack, the gameplay becomes almost identical to DAO, only faster.

I know I was playing the demo the exact same way as DAO, and certainly never felt that I would do more damage if I just proceeded in real time.

Thus, article is flawed.

Itkovian

[Funkjoker]

Lumikki wrote...

Meaning  you wanted the games to be design to you taste as way you like it. If Bioware thinks that YOU WAY is good for business, then why aren't they anymore doing the way YOU like it?

Because the previous work on the title wasn't mainstream and there was always the risk of failing at the box office. Mainstream has great chances for a great sales, but only for the moment; it won't be memorized as a classic and masterpiece as DA is.

And the way DA was made is not "my" way, it's the way BioWare did it prior to being owned by EA.

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

If EA thinks they will tap the CoD crowd with stuff like DA2 I'd say they are crazy. DA2 as an RPG won't be judged too harshly because RPGers rarely focus on graphics. The wider gaming community most certainly does. And DA2 fails to measure up.

What is this CoD crowd? I never played, I'm RPG player. Wider gaming community doesn't neccassary mean out of genre, it can also mean wider RPG player community. Meaning they don't do games just for sertain type of RPG players, but wider RPG player community.

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

And the way DA was made is not "my" way, it's the way BioWare did it prior to being owned by EA.

You mean what kind of games Bioware is doing now, is not BIOWARES way?
Or more it's not the way you want them?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 mars 2011 - 02:03 .

[AkiKishi]

Ziggeh wrote...
Could you describe what you mean by "natural"? To me it felt slightly less precise, but then precision barely mattered at all in DA:O, and it seemed to give me more reasons to do so, which I consider a good thing.

I'll give it a go..

In DA lower speed and higher difficulty meant I had both the time and need to be more tactical on occasions. When I pause in DA2 I feel like I totally break the flow and immersion of the battle ,because it's fast and immediate. Pausing just feels "wrong".

[Actua]

Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.
3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).
5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.

Just mentioning some of the things I have noticed in DA2. Da2 is by far the only game that has been dumbed down over the years though, so Bioware is not to blame for this. Oblivion got severely dumbed down, compared to Morrowind, and Skyrim is being dumbed down even more than Oblivion was. It has been a steady decline over the last 5-6 years. It has even happened bigtime in pen and paper rpgs too, actually. That being said...It doesn`t mean DA2 will be a bad game. As in most bioware games, the strength lies in the story and the companions. And i am looking forward to playing it.

Your points are all valid, but I personally think that 90% of those are proper improvements on the genre (sans the scaled combat--but I completely understand why it's there).

[keginkc]

The thing that stood out to me reading that is that they apparently haven't actually played the game, just the demo.

[Yrkoon]

I find it mildly ironic that the same people who are whining about DA2 being "mainstream" tend to start their posts off by saying "dude" or "bro"

But don't mind me.

[Rawgrim]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Meaning  you wanted the games to be design to you taste as way you like it. If Bioware thinks that YOU WAY is good for business, then why aren't they anymore doing the way YOU like it?

Because the previous work on the title wasn't mainstream and there was always the risk of failing at the box office. Mainstream has great chances for a great sales, but only for the moment; it won't be memorized as a classic and masterpiece as DA is.

And the way DA was made is not "my" way, it's the way BioWare did it prior to being owned by EA.

Also, Bioware said tactics would still be a huge part of the game (like it was in their older games). I belive "think like a general" was a quote being used alot. Problem is, when there is no firendly fire, and no good view of the battlefield, the "think like a general" bit is just nonsense. all you need to do now is to stuff Aveline close to the enemies, and have her taunt like there was no tomorrow, and target everything you have of area damage spells right atop of her head. When they say tactics will be a huge part of the game, no wonder people get disapointed when they realize its not even needed at all.

[Yrkoon]

keginkc wrote...

The thing that stood out to me reading that is that they apparently haven't actually played the game, just the demo.

They also appear to have a rather skewed memory  about the classic games they're citing.

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...

What is this CoD crowd?

My guess would be people who play Call of Duty. It was a Bioware "mission statement"

Speaking to NowGamer Melo said: “We have data that shows there are a lot of people that enjoy playing RPGs although they won’t necessarily call them RPGs. They’ll play Fallout, Assassin’s Creed and even Call Of Duty, which have these progression elements – you’re putting points into things – but they don’t necessarily associate that as an RPG. So we think that if we expand that out we’ll attract a much bigger audience.”

[Rawgrim]

Justin Bieber is mainstream too. It doesn`t make him better than the Beatles, or any kind of musical evolution.

[Yrkoon]

Rawgrim wrote...

Justin Bieber is mainstream too. It doesn`t make him better than the Beatles, or any kind of musical evolution.

The Beatles were mainstream.

I guess that means they sucked ass/sold out too?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 02:09 .

[Rixxencaxx]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Gnoster wrote...

So basically Bioware is being blamed that less and less people enjoy that kind of gaming. These kind of so-called analyst should really start taking a look at how a business is run successfully; what Bioware is doing with DA2 will maybe throw off some old-school RPG'ers (of which I am certainly among), but at the same time it will introduce new players to this type of games.
Personally I much prefer this new type of RPG (ME2 and DA2) over DAO; this is for me mainly a question of the amount of time spend on the game, work and family just doesn't allow for it spending hours on end getting through a single quest or even conversation.

I think the number is pretty constant BG sold 2 million copies for example (wiki).

What has changed are the costs of making games. Those have gone up dramatically over the years. In DA writing an extrea dialogue line was almost as easy as typing it here. Now you have to pay someone to voice the line, that costs more and involved more work.

If EA thinks they will tap the CoD crowd with stuff like DA2 I'd say they are crazy. DA2 as an RPG won't be judged too harshly because RPGers rarely focus on graphics. The wider gaming community most certainly does. And DA2 fails to measure up.

Bioware website says bg2 and expa sold near 5 millions....

[Siven80]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
Could you describe what you mean by "natural"? To me it felt slightly less precise, but then precision barely mattered at all in DA:O, and it seemed to give me more reasons to do so, which I consider a good thing.

I'll give it a go..

In DA lower speed and higher difficulty meant I had both the time and need to be more tactical on occasions. When I pause in DA2 I feel like I totally break the flow and immersion of the battle ,because it's fast and immediate. Pausing just feels "wrong".

Doesnt feel wrong to me.

Different strokes for different folks and all that.

[Rawgrim]

Yrkoon wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Justin Bieber is mainstream too. It doesn`t make him better than the Beatles, or any kind of musical evolution.

The Beatles were mainstream.

I guess that means they sucked ass/sold out too?

The Beatles was a bad example. I concede the point. Still...would you consider Bieber to be a positive evolution of music?

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

What is this CoD crowd?

My guess would be people who play Call of Duty. It was a Bioware "mission statement"

Okey, don't anything about Call of Duty, not my kind of game. Biowares mission statement?

Speaking to NowGamer Melo said:

Does this person works for Bioware?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 mars 2011 - 02:11 .

[Funkjoker]

Lumikki wrote...
And the way DA was made is not "my" way, it's the way BioWare did it prior to being owned by EA.
You mean what kind of games Bioware is doing now, is not BIOWARES way?
Or more it's not the way you want them?

Not the BioWare we knew and loved the way they did their games. Mainstreaming began with ME2, they now continue to do it with DA2.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mars 2011 - 02:13 .

[Melness]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.
3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).
5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.

Just mentioning some of the things I have noticed in DA2. Da2 is by far the only game that has been dumbed down over the years though, so Bioware is not to blame for this. Oblivion got severely dumbed down, compared to Morrowind, and Skyrim is being dumbed down even more than Oblivion was. It has been a steady decline over the last 5-6 years. It has even happened bigtime in pen and paper rpgs too, actually. That being said...It doesn`t mean DA2 will be a bad game. As in most bioware games, the strength lies in the story and the companions. And i am looking forward to playing it.

Bro, this is superb. Good job! Everything what's especially mainstreamed is bolded, which is... everything, lol.

1- Was an option in Origins.

2- Oh, so having to take 120 arrows from my bag of arrows or equiping a bag of plenty is SO MUCH ROLEPLAYING it hurts.

3- Nevermind how likely it is that the removal of friendly fire will be counter-balanced somehow. Nevermind how some of Origin's (and Baldur's Gate's) abilities had no friendly fire (Mana Clash from the Nine Hells, Sleep, Waking Nightmare, Mass Paralysis, Glyphs - not the paralysis combo -, Group Healing, Revival, Blood Wound, Hand of Winter, Elemental Chaos, Draining Aura) and were still largely as good, if not better, than their counterparts. Nevermind how INCREDIBLY EASY it is to manage friendly fire.

3/2- Morrigan had the option of changing her outfit, but unless you were up to spending a few hundred gold coins on her, no amount of foolishness would warrant changing her Morrigan's Robes/Robes of Posession.

Oh, and as if a metal armor can protect you from a fire-breathing overgrown lizard. :lol:

4- So... what? It was defined by your character's proficiencies in old RPG's how really stupid/or daring someone must be to not give a dagger to someone with 5 points in two handed weapons. Now, it can simply be interpreted by a character having a soul and choosing not to wield weapons that they don't know how to use.

5- Oh, Coercion, How I loved thee, with but 4 points all I needed was to pick the persuade line. Now I have to actually choose the best line of diplomacy for a given situation.

You talk as if the profession game of trap-making/herbalism wasn't pointless. You already had more than enough that these professions can offer by simply looting. Perish the thought of buying these things.

6- You could take a gameplay mechanic into consideration and actually, foolishly, take it as actual canon. Such as how you don't actually feed your familiar in BG2/BGT/Tutu, or your dog from Origins, but actually transcending the game and playing as if you have an actual relationship with said animals. Its called Roleplaying.

7- Exactly like BG? I'm sorry, but every time someone got stuck in BG was because the graphics wouldn't help you find someone or was a case of http://tvtropes.org/...ain/GuideDangIt. Pointless mechanic is pointless.

8- Only in the mind of a very challenged roleplayer. Which I pity, so very much.

9- Actually, you can pick between two handed weapons, sword and board, bows, dualwield or magic. You do it on the beginning. Limitation comes only after you realize your most important choice in the game was wrong.

10- Peter Thomas already confirmed that the mechanic won't be that way.

And... you actually had trouble on bosses from BG and found it fun? Oh dear...

[Lumikki]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

You mean what kind of games Bioware is doing now, is not BIOWARES way?
Or more it's not the way you want them?

Not the BioWare we knew and loved the way they did their games. Mainstreaming began with ME2, they now continue to do it with DA2.

I have played Biowares games from Baldur's Gate. I have not problems any of they directions, why you have?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...

Does this person works for Bioware?

He does, I think he's the producer of DA2.

http://thegaminglibe...-fernando-melo/

[balu1982]

I don't want to discuss every detail of the article here (mostly because it is based on a demo).

But i think the overall message is viable.

And like the author i am confident, that DA2 will be a good game.
Thats why i pre-ordered it and i think i won't be disappointed even though i like "classical" RPGs better than Action-RPGs.

It is simply tailored to reach a broader audience.

The one thing i don't understand (from EAs and Biowares point of view):
DA:O was aggressively marketed as a back-to-the-roots, not-really-baldurs-gate-but-close (do you remember those Muzyka/Zeschuk-interviews?) hardcore cRPG (which it wasn't but it tried) and it fared extremely well under this premise.
The risk of catering a presumably small "hardcore"-RPG-audience paid off.
Why do they seem to throw most of it over board and creat something like a medieval Mass-Effect?
If i wanna play something like Mass-Effect i play... Mass-Effect!

My point is: Bioware had two big franchises which followed a different approach to the RPG-genre: Mass-Effect ("casual") and Dragon Age ("hardcore").
Now they have to big franchises which seem to get more and more similar and "streamlined" (what a stupid term).

As i said: i am confident that DA2 will be fun and high quality.
But it's really sad and unnecessary (even from a commercial point of view) to bring it in line with mass effect.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

I can only state my mind that:

there is no such thing as RPG in Bioware games nowdays .There is only multi genre games serve to cater everyone need. If we keep arguing about cRPG and modern RPG, nothing can be accomplished as some of us have different meaning of what constitute RPG. Some people can role-play stone in their mind. Some people can role-play Luke Skywalker in Star Wars movie. Some people don't like to read dialogues and lore but manage to role-play action game for 10 seconds. All this argument is nothing less and nothing more based on one preference and gaming experience.

For me, I have given hope of what to expect from what used to be Neverwinter Nights. My long agony search for Neverwinter 3 seem to be met with DA Origins but it's end now with DA 2. I just hope I still can create my own story and characters and toolset. If none of this exist, then it's time to confine myself, my own story and character in The Elder Scroll where I began my tales in TES: Arena more than a decade ago. I'll miss my third person party interaction, Bioware most strongest point up to date..... .

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 04 mars 2011 - 02:18 .

[Cipher1989]

It's all up to personal taste. Some will love it, others will hate it.

[Solo80]

PhrosniteAgainROFL wrote...

All classic RPGs are dead.

So why did DA: Origins sell so well?