1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

Yep passionate enough to quit. 
http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

All one of him.  And yes, I know what his postion was.  Not relevant to what all the very numerous other devs feel about the game they've actually worked on, and the game Knowles didn't.

I am really sick of people equating Knowles to some sort of uber-God Developer that quit out of protest over EA screwing the little guy. 

[David Gaider]

Just a warning that there's been far too much "what is an RPG?" discussion as it is. If you wish to have a discussion on the nature of RPG's, please take it to Off Topic. If you wish to discuss RPG features in DA2 itself, please do so. But we're skirting an edge, here. Just because DA2 *is* an RPG doesn't mean it's free license for everyone to grind their personal axes on what kinds of RPG's they prefer which DA2 isn't.

Duly warned.

[hexaligned]

Aurgelmir wrote...

Buffy-Summers wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What's the definition of action-RPG? Is there one?

I would say this fits the bill to a T

Action role-playing games form a loosely-defined sub-genre of role-playing video games that incorporate elements of action or action-adventure games, emphasizing real-time action that requires direct input from the player, instead of turn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games.

I would agree. And I enjoy them.

But I already have Mass Effect for my ARPG needs, dragon age satiated my RPG needs. Now they want to make Dragon Effect, and I, for the first time ever, dont wan't to buy a Bioware game. I will in the end probably, but only out of loyalty to a company who have earned it...and if DA2 isn't at least passable the may very well lose it.

Having played the demo, it felt much the same as Jade Empire or KOTOR to me.  Granted I don't really like either of those games, but I think the accusations that Bioware is abandoning their roots or whatever are a little off.  If you enjoyed those games, I don't see any reason you wouldn't like DA2 (on the PC)

[Buffy-Summers]

AlanC9 wrote...

If that's the definition then I don't see how DA2 is any more of an action-RPG than DAO was, unless the player chooses to play that way.

DRAGON AGE TWO is touted as the push button have awesome happen, super faster, combat game


That seems to be the defintion of hack and slash too me

[didymos1120]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

If that's the definition then I don't see how DA2 is any more of an action-RPG than DAO was, unless the player chooses to play that way.

DRAGON AGE TWO is touted as the push button have awesome happen, super faster, combat game


That seems to be the defintion of hack and slash too me

The way the combat actually works, going by demo, rather seems to belie the marketing hyperbole.  It's more like "press a button/key/click an icon and stuff happens faster than it did in DA:O, and it'll generally be somewhat flashier, though to what degree depends on the actual ability in question."  But then, that doesn't really work as a marketing slogan, so....

[didymos1120]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

Yep passionate enough to quit. 
http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

All one of him.  And yes, I know what his postion was.  Not relevant to what all the very numerous other devs feel about the game they've actually worked on, and the game Knowles didn't.

I am really sick of people equating Knowles to some sort of uber-God Developer that quit out of protest over EA screwing the little guy. 

And, as I noted previously, if you actually read the blog entry Dorian linked as "evidence" that DA2 "made" him quit, you'll find he didn't leave until months after he'd left the Dragon Age team.  Months.   

[Graunt]

didymos1120 wrote...
Maybe that was the problem:  he prefers those couple extra degrees of freedoms Origins offered.  But given how cosmetic those things were after the actual origin sections were done, I have trouble seeing why that's such a problem.

Many people don't care at all how much of an impact something does or not does have, only that by removing it you're somehow "getting less" -- so they play the part of the victim just for the sake of being cheated.

Modifié par Graunt, 07 mars 2011 - 09:34 .

[Bonkz]

Personally i very much enjoyed the sense of freedom i had in older games (e.g. BG titles), the management of my characters, the tactical aspect of the game, where every wrong move could turn the tide of battle against me and so on. Even the little things like the individual inventory for each of my party members made me think that "I'm playing actual characters here".
I even enjoyed the unexpected parts of the game, where i encountered someone/thing (as mentioned before) that i wasn't prepared for or couldn't yet kill cause i wasn't powerful enough. Made you think that you are in a real world and took a wrong turn somewhere.

Now most of these things have been removed from todays games and that's a fact. I won't mention a list here but just what Sylvius mentioned which i totally agree on about DA:O, where you could go to any area you liked and still finish it without problems cause creatures level scale. You don't feel like you are being challenged.
Everything seems to be around combat nowadays, how to make combat more action-like so more people like it. Looking at the marketing campaign of DA2 it's clear. The thing that i heard 99% of the time in every single add of the game was "when you press a button something awesome happens". Not character development, not character interactions, not the story, not the beauty of the world but combat. I'm not saying that those don't exist to some extent in the game but are clearly secondary reasons to play it.

In the end, there are people who do not like where RPG's are going (including myself) and there are people who do like where they are going. I know that the industry moves on and tries to keep up with what the mass wants. The mass enjoys visceral combat most of all right now, so that is the direction followed the most. From a company perspective i understand that bioware and every "bioware" out there wants to sell units, so it's not a surprise. I will still play DA2 and enjoy it for what it is even if i don't consider it a RPG of my taste 100%.

Modifié par Bonkz, 07 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[Graunt]

Bonkz wrote...
The thing that i heard 99% of the time in every single add of the game was "when you press a button something awesome happens". Not character development, not character interactions, not the story, not the beauty of the world but combat. I'm not saying that those don't exist to some extent in the game but are clearly secondary reasons to play it.

I think this is something awesome www.youtube.com/watch (but probably not for the reason you might think).

[Aidunno]

Buffy-Summers wrote...
DRAGON AGE TWO is touted as the push button have awesome happen, super faster, combat game

That seems to be the defintion of hack and slash to me

As was Dragon Age Origins. It simply took a lot longer for that "awesomeness" to happen which for a lot of people spoilt the game. Is it suprising that they market the game to try to get those people back? DA2 appears frenetic and you can dodge some attacks such as rock thrown by an ogre instead of it homing in on you. I don't see how this consitutes the decline of the classic RPG. There is a reason most RPG's combat mechanics take up such a major part of the rule system.

The skeleton ruleset behind the scenes are similar to most RPGs. Inventory... check, Skills..  check, interaction with NPC's.. check... playing a role in a setting defined by the DM.. check.

[AkiKishi]

ceski wrote...

This video sums up how Dragon Age 2 represents everything wrong with the video game industry today.

A complete shame.

Have you seen the Hitler video ? Never thought I would ever agree with that twisted SOB.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 07 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Graunt]

Aidunno wrote...
The skeleton ruleset behind the scenes are similar to most RPGs. Inventory... check, Skills..  check, interaction with NPC's.. check... playing a role in a setting defined by the DM.. check.

I'll give you a counter argument!

Requires reflexes (now) if you want to play in real time...check
Combat may actually be fun...check
No longer has a cliche LOTR styled "classic RPG" look...check
Main protagonist actually has personality outside of your head...check
Each compainion has something specific/unique about them that cannot be altered to make them clones...check

Sorry, I'm just not seeing how it could possibly be as good as Origins.

Modifié par Graunt, 07 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[Bonkz]

Graunt wrote...

Bonkz wrote...
The thing that i heard 99% of the time in every single add of the game was "when you press a button something awesome happens". Not character development, not character interactions, not the story, not the beauty of the world but combat. I'm not saying that those don't exist to some extent in the game but are clearly secondary reasons to play it.

I think this is something awesome www.youtube.com/watch (but probably not for the reason you might think).

I haven't seen that before with the added power ranger music....that was funny. The video is known. All about combat


PS: I never said that having a good combat system is bad for a role playing game. I do enjoy it. I just don't think that most of the other things i've mentioned should be sacrifised for it. For me -and this is personal opinion- the other features make a game more of an RPG than combat ever will.

Modifié par Bonkz, 07 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[Aurgelmir]

Graunt wrote...

Aidunno wrote...
The skeleton ruleset behind the scenes are similar to most RPGs. Inventory... check, Skills..  check, interaction with NPC's.. check... playing a role in a setting defined by the DM.. check.

I'll give you a counter argument!

Requires reflexes (now) if you want to play in real time...check
Combat may actually be fun...check
No longer has a cliche LOTR styled "classic RPG" look...check
Main protagonist actually has personality outside of your head...check
Each compainion has something specific/unique about them that cannot be altered to make them clones...check

Can't be a "real" RPG with those elements IMO.

Have you seen LOTR? I assume you haven't so let me break it down for you. In the demo of DA2 they replaced Lothering with Mordor and they replaced the Darkspawn with Orcs.

And heaven forbid that I have to use my imagination in an RPG.

[Aidunno]

Graunt wrote...

Requires reflexes (now) if you want to play in real time...check

Choices in a roleplaying game should always be avoided obviously...

[Graunt]

Aurgelmir wrote...
Have you seen LOTR?

Yes, multiple times, and read the books as well.

I assume you haven't so let me break it down for you. In the demo of DA2 they replaced Lothering with Mordor and they replaced the Darkspawn with Orcs.

I'm not sure you understand what cliche means, nor do you remember what Origins actually looked like outside of your head (especially Orzammar and their whole plight).

And heaven forbid that I have to use my imagination in an RPG.

Heaven forbid there actually be consistency among all parties involved.

[Morroian]

Bonkz wrote...

Everything seems to be around combat nowadays, how to make combat more action-like so more people like it. Looking at the marketing campaign of DA2 it's clear. The thing that i heard 99% of the time in every single add of the game was "when you press a button something awesome happens". Not character development, not character interactions, not the story, not the beauty of the world but combat. I'm not saying that those don't exist to some extent in the game but are clearly secondary reasons to play it.

Thats only a marketing catchphrase, you're ascribing too much importance to it. All conflict in DAO were resolved by combat if you;re going to criticicise DA2 for focussing on it you're going to have to criticise DAO, indeed most BW games going back to kotor.
 

[Morroian]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

DRAGON AGE TWO is touted as the push button have awesome happen, super faster, combat game

That seems to be the defintion of hack and slash too me

Since when does a marketing catchphrase define the actual game. Even playing the demo its clearly not hack and slash.

[Aurgelmir]

Graunt wrote...

I assume you haven't so let me break it down for you. In the demo of DA2 they replaced Lothering with Mordor and they replaced the Darkspawn with Orcs.

I'm not sure you understand what cliche means, nor do you remember what Origins actually looked like outside of your head (especially Orzammar and their whole plight).

So you're saying that their style for DA2 is not a cliched LOTR style, instead its a whole new, fresh, LOTR style. Oh well pardon me.

Modifié par Aurgelmir, 07 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Bonkz]

Morroian wrote...

Bonkz wrote...

Everything seems to be around combat nowadays, how to make combat more action-like so more people like it. Looking at the marketing campaign of DA2 it's clear. The thing that i heard 99% of the time in every single add of the game was "when you press a button something awesome happens". Not character development, not character interactions, not the story, not the beauty of the world but combat. I'm not saying that those don't exist to some extent in the game but are clearly secondary reasons to play it.

Thats only a marketing catchphrase, you're ascribing too much importance to it. All conflict in DAO were resolved by combat if you;re going to criticicise DA2 for focussing on it you're going to have to criticise DAO, indeed most BW games going back to kotor.
 

Well from what i've seen in all the videos and while playing the demo myself (i know that some features were not included) it seems like the only thing that changed the most and the whole game moved more towards that aspect, is combat. I'm not ascribing too much inportance, it is how it is.

I never said that DA:O was better. But at least there was a sense of tactical combat in it. Some fights could be tricky if you didn't pay attention. Even though the lvl scaling ruined it for me. 

Modifié par Bonkz, 07 mars 2011 - 10:56 .

[Graunt]

Aurgelmir wrote...
So you're saying that their style for DA2 is not a cliched LOTR style, instead its a whole new, fresh, LOTR style. Oh well pardon me.

You can actually have swords and sorcery without it looking like Gygax Tolkein worship.  I know that's a contrary notion, but it's true.

I never said that DA:O was better. But at least there was a sense of
tactical combat in it. Some fights could be tricky if you didn't pay
attention. Even though the lvl scaling ruined it for me.

So play on Nightmare, which is actually supposed to be hard this time.  Or, are you going to tell me that you won't, because it's too hard?  Hmm...

Modifié par Graunt, 07 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[The Elder King]

Morroian wrote...

Buffy-Summers wrote...

DRAGON AGE TWO is touted as the push button have awesome happen, super faster, combat game

That seems to be the defintion of hack and slash too me

Since when does a marketing catchphrase define the actual game. Even playing the demo its clearly not hack and slash.

On console the demo it'a bit a button masher. Hopefully in the full game they put the auto-attack option. But anyway, I don't see any reason why DA2 on PC could be defined an hack and slash or a button masher.

[Morroian]

Bonkz wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Thats only a marketing catchphrase, you're ascribing too much importance to it. All conflict in DAO were resolved by combat if you're going to criticicise DA2 for focussing on it you're going to have to criticise DAO, indeed most BW games going back to kotor.
 

Well from what i've seen in all the videos and while playing the demo myself (i know that some features were not included) it seems like the only thing that changed the most and the whole game moved more towards that aspect, is combat. I'm not ascribing too much inportance, it is how it is.

I never said that DA:O was better. But at least there was a sense of tactical combat in it. Some fights could be tricky if you didn't pay attention. Even though the lvl scaling ruined it for me. 

DA2 has similar tactical combat just faster, you actually have to try and look past the speed. The demo was there to show the features of the game that had changed the most. I'm sure the rest of Bioware's usual strengths will be in the final game.

[AkiKishi]

Graunt wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...
So you're saying that their style for DA2 is not a cliched LOTR style, instead its a whole new, fresh, LOTR style. Oh well pardon me.

You can actually have swords and sorcery without it looking like Gygax Tolkein worship.  I know that's a contrary notion, but it's true.

In the demo if you look at the backround in the distance, it just screams Mordor.
 You can, but most of the time you get different just for the sake of being different. Tolkein based most of his world on various legends and myths. That's why its both familiar and yet different.

Even very different stuff like FFIX still has it's share of fantasy cliche.

[Bonkz]

I never said that DA:O was better. But at least there was a sense of
tactical combat in it. Some fights could be tricky if you didn't pay
attention. Even though the lvl scaling ruined it for me.

So play on Nightmare, which is actually supposed to be hard this time.  Or, are you going to tell me that you won't, because it's too hard?  Hmm...

Difficulty for the sake of difficutly doesn't fix anything. Making creatures hit twice as hard and having twice the health isn't meaningful and it's not the same as having a random encounter somewhere that you didn't expect, as i mentioned before. Lastly, i don't remember me saying that i want combat to be impossible during a game i play. I just enjoyed the fact that there were areas/places where you couldn't just go at the start cause you weren't tough enough. Gives a warm feeling when you go and manage to kill them doesn't it ? 

Modifié par Bonkz, 07 mars 2011 - 11:17 .