1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gerbz]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Justin Bieber is mainstream too. It doesn`t make him better than the Beatles, or any kind of musical evolution.

The Beatles were mainstream.

I guess that means they sucked ass/sold out too?

The Beatles was a bad example. I concede the point. Still...would you consider Bieber to be a positive evolution of music?

Rap / hiphop and Bieber destroy music.

[Funkjoker]

Lumikki wrote...
I have played Biowares games from Baldur's Gate. I have not problems any of they directions, why you have?

Well, just read my all my previous complaints about DA2. But do not think that I have completly lost my faith to BioWare. As long as DA2 and ME2 are just "tests" and they answer to the feedback in their next titles (especially DAseries!), it's fine for me :-) .

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Ziggeh]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I'll give it a go..

In DA lower speed and higher difficulty meant I had both the time and need to be more tactical on occasions.

I'd hesitate to talk about the difficulty myself. The demo was possibly not all that representative.

I agree that the speed reduces your precision, but I think that increases the urgency (which may or may not be a good thing depending on preference), something Origins combat didn't really have.

Personally I felt the changes to abilities, or rather the stamina changes which allowed the more frequent usage, gave me much more incentive to micro manage, which was the reason I noticed the speed to begin with. I wanted some indication that companion abilities had come off of CD (which led to more pausing)

BobSmith101 wrote...
When I pause in DA2 I feel like I totally break the flow and immersion of the battle ,because it's fast and immediate. Pausing just feels "wrong".

That's hard to argue because it's a feeling. I can't say I felt that way myself.

[Yrkoon]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Justin Bieber is mainstream too. It doesn`t make him better than the Beatles, or any kind of musical evolution.

The Beatles were mainstream.

I guess that means they sucked ass/sold out too?

The Beatles was a bad example. I concede the point. Still...would you consider Bieber to be a positive evolution of music?

  That's a loaded question.  He's a pop star.   And  Pop music doesn't really evolve. it's  the most static thing in the world, in fact  (completely consistant in  garbage production rates since 1955).   But I will say that    I can't really decide  which is worse, Justin Beiber, or  the  70s disco era...


And I have no idea how  one can tie this into the whole "mainstream" argument since Pop music is, by definition, mainstream.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[Melness]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
I have played Biowares games from Baldur's Gate. I have not problems any of they directions, why you have?

Well, just read my all my previous complaints about DA2. But do not think that I have completly lost my faith to BioWare. As long as DA2 and ME2 are just "tests" and they answer to the feedback in their next titles (especially DAseries!), it's fine for me :-) .

I still think people are too attached to silly mechanics that were always nothing more than a bonus completely unrelated, sometimes actually bad for, the essential premise of roleplaying.

In fact, its rather curious how many 'dumbing downs' include things that were exactly the same in origins and, just as often, baldur's gate.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 Not this again. That post seems to be right out of RPGCodex. Pause-and-play combat was good and oh so deep in Baldur's Gate and Torment, but suddendly it's an heresy and the ruin of RPGs forever in DA2? And complains about linearity? As far as I can remember, apart from Fallout, all the CRPGs put on pedestals had the same model as Origins and DA2; open cities, linear environnements. Sigil may or may not be more open than Kirkwall, we don't know since the game ain't out yet. But the rest of the levels in these games? the various dungeons in BG (don't get me started on Throne of Baal)? Torment everytime you exit Sigil? Mostly linear environnements packed with stuff to kill with maybe a side area tacked on for a quest. This has not changed, at all, but now it's bad because the game is in 3D or something.

That is my number one complaint about articles such as this; they accuse DA2, and Bioware by extension, of selling out and going ''mainstream'' (as if late 90's RPGs were not made for money back in their days, come on, scores of gamers were DnD fans, so of course they made games that suited their tastes. Now they lost the big market share, so things change. It's just friggin business, not a conspiracy), while presenting arguments that could very well have been used against ye olden and so perfect games. I cannot take their claims seriously after that.

[moilami]

Someday all those people understand that what they want to play is arcade adventure games where they can romance hot chicks. Say what RPG?

[Funkjoker]

Melness wrote...

I still think people are too attached to silly mechanics that were always nothing more than a bonus completely unrelated, sometimes actually bad for, the essential premise of roleplaying.

In fact, its rather curious how many 'dumbing downs' include things that were exactly the same in origins and, just as often, baldur's gate.

What silly mechanics? Mainstream games have dumbed down mechanics. What bonuses are you talking about?

No. DA2 is dumbed down compared to DA. Heavily. See Rawgrim great post. You answered to it, but by all means, your answer was just a "I like mainstream". Which is perfectly fine, however it's not what BioWare previously stood for.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[AkiKishi]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

 Not this again. That post seems to be right out of RPGCodex. Pause-and-play combat was good and oh so deep in Baldur's Gate and Torment, but suddendly it's an heresy and the ruin of RPGs forever in DA2?

Both those games had a much slower pace than DA2. I think it was 6 seconds per "round" but I could be wrong about it.

My playstyle with DA2 is program the AI then play in real time unless I really need to pause.Not that different in DA I only really paused for the hard stuff. Other peoples will vary. But I get what they mean about the sped up combat.

[Rawgrim]

Melness wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.
3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).
5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.

Just mentioning some of the things I have noticed in DA2. Da2 is by far the only game that has been dumbed down over the years though, so Bioware is not to blame for this. Oblivion got severely dumbed down, compared to Morrowind, and Skyrim is being dumbed down even more than Oblivion was. It has been a steady decline over the last 5-6 years. It has even happened bigtime in pen and paper rpgs too, actually. That being said...It doesn`t mean DA2 will be a bad game. As in most bioware games, the strength lies in the story and the companions. And i am looking forward to playing it.

Bro, this is superb. Good job! Everything what's especially mainstreamed is bolded, which is... everything, lol.

1- Was an option in Origins.

2- Oh, so having to take 120 arrows from my bag of arrows or equiping a bag of plenty is SO MUCH ROLEPLAYING it hurts.

3- Nevermind how likely it is that the removal of friendly fire will be counter-balanced somehow. Nevermind how some of Origin's (and Baldur's Gate's) abilities had no friendly fire (Mana Clash from the Nine Hells, Sleep, Waking Nightmare, Mass Paralysis, Glyphs - not the paralysis combo -, Group Healing, Revival, Blood Wound, Hand of Winter, Elemental Chaos, Draining Aura) and were still largely as good, if not better, than their counterparts. Nevermind how INCREDIBLY EASY it is to manage friendly fire.

3/2- Morrigan had the option of changing her outfit, but unless you were up to spending a few hundred gold coins on her, no amount of foolishness would warrant changing her Morrigan's Robes/Robes of Posession.

Oh, and as if a metal armor can protect you from a fire-breathing overgrown lizard. :lol:

4- So... what? It was defined by your character's proficiencies in old RPG's how really stupid/or daring someone must be to not give a dagger to someone with 5 points in two handed weapons. Now, it can simply be interpreted by a character having a soul and choosing not to wield weapons that they don't know how to use.

5- Oh, Coercion, How I loved thee, with but 4 points all I needed was to pick the persuade line. Now I have to actually choose the best line of diplomacy for a given situation.

You talk as if the profession game of trap-making/herbalism wasn't pointless. You already had more than enough that these professions can offer by simply looting. Perish the thought of buying these things.

6- You could take a gameplay mechanic into consideration and actually, foolishly, take it as actual canon. Such as how you don't actually feed your familiar in BG2/BGT/Tutu, or your dog from Origins, but actually transcending the game and playing as if you have an actual relationship with said animals. Its called Roleplaying.

7- Exactly like BG? I'm sorry, but every time someone got stuck in BG was because the graphics wouldn't help you find someone or was a case of http://tvtropes.org/...ain/GuideDangIt. Pointless mechanic is pointless.

8- Only in the mind of a very challenged roleplayer. Which I pity, so very much.

9- Actually, you can pick between two handed weapons, sword and board, bows, dualwield or magic. You do it on the beginning. Limitation comes only after you realize your most important choice in the game was wrong.

10- Peter Thomas already confirmed that the mechanic won't be that way.

And... you actually had trouble on bosses from BG and found it fun? Oh dear...

Incase you missed it....I wasn`t comparing DA2 to DA:O. I was listing the stuff up in general.

2. Yes it adds roleplaying, since your archer might, at some point run out of arrows, and you have to change your fightingstyle because of it.

3. Its easy to manage friendly fire in most fights, sure. Again. I wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

4. Everyone can learn to use new weapons. Learning to use a ranged weapon, for example, is a smart thing to do in rpgs. You can, for example fire arrows at an opponent and possibly kill him before he reaches you. Or being able to damage a target that you, for some reason, just can`t reach with your daggers.

5. Again...wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

6. The dog isn`t a familiar.

7. Being spoonfed what to do is the same as reading a walkthrough.

8. When you play a pre-made character it limits things alot more than if you get to pick between 10 races, and 20 classes to play. But yes, you can roleplay it to a certain point. That much is true.

9. As i said: 2 weapon styles for 2 classes is limiting, especially when you could equip up to 20 different weapons for 20 different classes in older games.

[Aidunno]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...


What silly mechanics? Mainstream games have dumbed down mechanics. What bonuses are you talking about?

No. DA2 is dumbed down compared to DA. Heavily. See Rawgrim great post. You answered to it, but by all means, your answer was just a "I like mainstream". Which is perfectly fine, however it's not what BioWare previously stood for.

However your opinion is just your impression. My impression is that Bioware made and makes good, fun games.

Modifié par Aidunno, 04 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[Stompi]

The video game market has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. And a very small group of loud people won't change that.

[Lumikki]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
I have played Biowares games from Baldur's Gate. I have not problems any of they directions, why you have?

Well, just read my all my previous complaints about DA2. But do not think that I have completly lost my faith to BioWare. As long as DA2 and ME2 are just "tests" and they answer to the feedback in their next titles (especially DAseries!), it's fine for me :-) .

In my opinion they aren't just testing. it's about change of direction. I don't mean that they can't increase RPG in they future products. How ever, I don't think they go back to traditional RPG anymore. It's just so old fashion. In time everyting allways change.

I think they tryed to go root of role-playing. Now problem is that they are going more direction of story telling, like adventure. It's like difference between statical gameplay in RPG and customation tool for role-playing, what is lost. They tryed to reduse statical gameplay, but while they did that, they also removed alot of customation and choises for role-players. I ques, it's because they did go too much direction of action animation and character with talked voices. It's like a lot of more visual and audio impression, but lost the variety. Only kept what was absolute neccassary for genre. Now those players who think large variety of statical game is only way to have RPG are angry about it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[Funkjoker]

Stompi wrote...

The video game market has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. And a very small group of loud people won't change that.

Wrong. Witcher, ME, DA and probably few others are great counters to all the mainstream games. I don't say they are perfect, but they stand out.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

moilami wrote...

Someday all those people understand that what they want to play is arcade adventure games where they can romance hot chicks. Say what RPG?

Or passive story reading and watching movies.

This is what RPG "evolution" seem to be directing. Perhaps all those people will argue with newer COD audiences in next 5 years about what should be immersing story, lore, dialogue path and character build. 

[Rompa87]

If the group who crave old-style rpg's is large enough, vocal and has disposable income, the market will surely provide for those who want moving pictures to go with their PnP gaming

[Rawgrim]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Stompi wrote...

The video game market has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. And a very small group of loud people won't change that.

Wrong. Witcher, ME, DA and probably few others are great counters to all the mainstream games. I don't say they are perfect, but they stand out.

Drakensang 1 and 2 as well.

[Randomjob]

Oh my god, I'm tired of these posts claiming the core of the game has changed. So the attack animations and combat are faster. What about the core actually changed?!?!??!

I just did a whole play through of DA:O last week and there are parts of the game, where you just spam skills and destroy everything. I mean, in the origin stories at the beginning you just run around and mow through the easy enemies with no strategy, just spamming your skill.

Compare the "core gameplay" of an origin story to the demo. You'll see it's played exactly the same, just that DA2 is faster and flashier. Nothing actually changed though.

[Melness]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Melness wrote...

I still think people are too attached to silly mechanics that were always nothing more than a bonus completely unrelated, sometimes actually bad for, the essential premise of roleplaying.

In fact, its rather curious how many 'dumbing downs' include things that were exactly the same in origins and, just as often, baldur's gate.

What silly mechanics? Mainstream games have dumbed down mechanics. What bonuses are you talking about?

No. DA2 is dumbed down compared to DA. Heavily. See Rawgrim great post. You answered to it, but by all means, your answer was just a "I like mainstream". Which is perfectly fine, however it's not what BioWare previously stood for.

Transdimensional Inventory.

RPG's always had an inventory system that is akin to a portable TARDIS and people find it immersive. Find that it aids in roleplaying, treasure it as if it is 'realistic'. And then they dare nitpick the unlimited smokebombs and miasmic flasks of rogues.

And, of course, that isn't mentioning the good old Bag of Holding. But you still can't carry a 1000 arrows in a girdle, like in Baldur's Gate.

'Realistic Combat'

RPG's are. not. realistic. Never have been. 'OH Isabela is wearing a shirt against a DRAGON!". As if a metal suit of armor can protect you.

'Realistic Projectiles Inventory' - A sub-mechanic of Inventory.

Yes, in real-life you need ammunition. RPG's could certainly simulate that.. but they never did. In Baldur's Gate 2, you had a cute thing called Quiver/Bag of Plenty that served to dismiss this pointless mechanic and the game was still 'THE BEST THING EVER OMG, And I'm not ignoring the flaws because of nostalgia'.

'Open world'

Baldur's Gate wasn't an open world, was it mainstream?

Oh, sure, you can totally stop by the Lighthouse to look for a woman's son, not find him, and then get an amazing prize of 50gp. In the same spirit, you can storm through either Origin's or DA2's main plot OR you can explore Denerim/Orzammar/Brecillian Forest/Kirkwall and get a few side-quests to carry out.

The world is never as open as you dream it is.

To name a few.

Modifié par Melness, 04 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Randomjob wrote...

Oh my god, I'm tired of these posts claiming the core of the game has changed. So the attack animations and combat are faster. What about the core actually changed?!?!??!

I just did a whole play through of DA:O last week and there are parts of the game, where you just spam skills and destroy everything. I mean, in the origin stories at the beginning you just run around and mow through the easy enemies with no strategy, just spamming your skill.

Compare the "core gameplay" of an origin story to the demo. You'll see it's played exactly the same, just that DA2 is faster and flashier. Nothing actually changed though.

Wrong. Storytelling has change. Say hello to Varric and cassandra. Welcome to story within story. You realize now you are not the main character in DA 2 but a mythical character inside Varric's tales?

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 04 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[Ziggeh]

On a more general note, and one that almost certain shuffles it's clumsy way into any such thread, the things being mourned in this thread are the things I consider tedious and/or repetitive.

I like being presented with problems, that's the strength of the rpg. What I'm not so keen on is being presented the same problem. Over and over. From game to game. Which bit of vendor trash I hoist into the abyss to make way for my shiny new hat is not a challenge I see as critical to the experience. I've done that, thank you. I've collected my fair share of bear flanks and spider venom. Many of these systems I'd like to see altered simply to alter them. Planet scanning was horrible, but it was at least new.

Many of these things represent choices and options, which I'll definitely concede is a loss, but all too often they only exist for this purpose. They aren't a cohesive element of the overall structure, but an isolated repository of tedium, centred on the premise that as many things as possible should be a part of the gameplay, whether they are interesting or not.

Woo, nearly broke into full rant mode there. I'd better go drink some ovaltine and calm down.

[Elsariel]

Yrkoon wrote...

I can't really decide  which is worse, Justin Beiber, or  the  70s disco era...

Bieber is worse.  You can't deny the funk.  You just can't deny it.