1216 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadedclan]

They didn't do it for the money. They did it because combat was boring! They changed the game because fans wanted it and they were listening to them. So they made it into what people want. I personally love the combat.

[Ziggeh]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Or passive story reading and watching movies.

This is what RPG "evolution" seem to be directing. Perhaps all those people will argue with newer COD audiences in next 5 years about what should be immersing story, lore, dialogue path and character build. 

Slippery slope arguments are fun. Clearly your ideal game would be a spreadsheet and your own imagination.

[Rawgrim]

Melness wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Melness wrote...

I still think people are too attached to silly mechanics that were always nothing more than a bonus completely unrelated, sometimes actually bad for, the essential premise of roleplaying.

In fact, its rather curious how many 'dumbing downs' include things that were exactly the same in origins and, just as often, baldur's gate.

What silly mechanics? Mainstream games have dumbed down mechanics. What bonuses are you talking about?

No. DA2 is dumbed down compared to DA. Heavily. See Rawgrim great post. You answered to it, but by all means, your answer was just a "I like mainstream". Which is perfectly fine, however it's not what BioWare previously stood for.

Transdimensional Inventory.

RPG's always had an inventory system that is akin to a portable TARDIS and people find it immersive. Find that it aids in roleplaying, treasure it as if it is 'realistic'. And then they dare nitpick the unlimited smokebombs and miasmic flasks of rogues.

And, of course, that isn't mentioning the good old Bag of Holding. But you still can't carry a 1000 arrows in a girdle, like in Baldur's Gate.

'Realistic Combat'

RPG's are. not. realistic. Never have been. 'OH Isabela is wearing a shirt against a DRAGON!". As if a metal suit of armor can protect you.

'Realistic Projectiles Inventory' - A sub-mechanic of Inventory.

Yes, in real-life you need ammunition. RPG's could certainly simulate that.. but they never did. In Baldur's Gate 2, you had a cute thing called Quiver/Bag of Plenty that served to dismiss this pointless mechanic and the game was still 'THE BEST THING EVER OMG, And I'm not ignoring the flaws because of nostalgia'.

'Open world'

Baldur's Gate wasn't an open world, was it mainstream?

Oh, sure, you can totally stop by the Lighthouse to look for a woman's son, not find him, and then get an amazing prize of 50gp. In the same spirit, you can storm through either Origin's or DA2's main plot OR you can explore Denerim/Orzammar/Brecillian Forest/Kirkwall and get a few side-quests to carry out.

The world is never as open as you dream it is.

To name a few.

1. If the dragon bites you, its prefferable to be wearing armour, rather than a t-shirt.

2. Bag of Holding is a magical item. Taken from the d&d ruleset, actually. Since its a valuable (and rather rare) MAGICAL item, it makes your point invalid.

3. Actually about 90 percent of the rpgs simulated the need for amunition. Even Diablo did it. I suggest you try some old rpgs and check it out - just so you know what you are talking about.

4. The quiver you are talking about was also a magical item. Go figure.

5. Open world is a good thing, if one likes to explore and look around. Not everything has to have something quest related.

[moilami]

Melness wrote...


4- So... what? It was defined by your character's proficiencies in old RPG's how really stupid/or daring someone must be to not give a dagger to someone with 5 points in two handed weapons. Now, it can simply be interpreted by a character having a soul and choosing not to wield weapons that they don't know how to use.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHAAAAA. Sorry, could not resist.

The article referred was good.

End of discussion for me.


Edit: Insert a speaking bubble "I can't use crossbows" in the picture.

Modifié par moilami, 04 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ziggeh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Or passive story reading and watching movies.

This is what RPG "evolution" seem to be directing. Perhaps all those people will argue with newer COD audiences in next 5 years about what should be immersing story, lore, dialogue path and character build. 

Slippery slope arguments are fun. Clearly your ideal game would be a spreadsheet and your own imagination.

Clearly your ideal game is super mario with hot chick  and your lack of imagination now cost me the only third person party interaction I've love. The different between you and I is you have more option to pick. I have less. You have Mass Effect 2, God of War etc... I have none of this. 

[Arttis]

Icinix wrote...

Arttis wrote...

drahelvete wrote...

<Insert cliché about progress here>, and that's that!

<Insert good arguement against progress here> , Its not over!

Both of these arguments are mighty compelling...I might need to come back...too much to weigh...

I have more good arguements prepared!
*just kidding*

[Yrkoon]

[quote]Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
See Rawgrim great post. [/quote]
His post was decent and well thought out.    But that Doesn't mean that each one of his points can't be  completely  debunked.

Here....  Off the top of my head:
[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.[/quote]
They can be turned off, Both in DA:O and DA2.  The option is there, so....


[quote]
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.[/quote]
Not only did we    also not need quivers of Arrows in DA:O, but  you didn't need them in BG2 or Neverwinter Nights either, as there were a few Bows, crossbows, darts and daggers that gave limitless ammo.  And oh yeah, I almost forgot... you couldn't even BE an archer in Planescape Torment.

[quote]
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.[/quote]
Neverwinter nights  had no friendly fire on Normal.  and it's a 10 year old RPG...  or "old school" as  the popular term being used these days is.    And I'm wracking my brain trying to remember a single spell in Planescape: Torment that  did friendly fire damage...




[quote]3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).[/quote]
Planescape torment featured scanitly clad companions who's gear was completely static.  In fact, in Planescape torment, your MAIN CHARACTER couldn't wear any armor at all... ever.

[quote]
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).[/quote]
In Planescape:  Torment, your companion's weapons were also locked on them,  and one companion couldn't even use weapons.    And Another companion could only use his teeth.





[quote]5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.[/quote]
 BG1 and BG2 had a grand total of Zero non-combat skills.

[quote]
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.[/quote]
Figurines of wonderous power are staples of classic RPGs...  in BG2 you had a little plastic spider that you could use  every 5 minutes in order to get a  real spider companion to fight for you!  You also had a Genie bottle  you could do the same thing with.



[quote]
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.[/quote]
Same with BG2, Planescape Torment,  and neverwinter nights.  This is a complete non-point.

[quote]
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.[/quote]
Planescape: torment had... one race to choose from,   one gender to choose from,  one name to choose from  (that's right, you couldn't even NAME your character).    And One class to choose from  (you had to unlock the other 2 classes)

[quote]
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.[/quote]
in Torment, you couldn't even use a shield.  or be an archer.    In BG1 you couldn't dualwield.

[quote]
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.[/quote]
Level scaling has been in classic RPGs since BG2

And that's the point, people.  There's nothing but extremely faulty nostalgia  or something fueling these ridiculous  "RPGs are dying" threads.  You all don't  even remember  how annoyingly limited the RPGs of the past really were.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[Artemonas]

Totally agree with the article

[SnowHeart1]

Shadedclan wrote...

They didn't do it for the money. They did it because combat was boring! They changed the game because fans wanted it and they were listening to them. So they made it into what people want. I personally love the combat.

Logic fail.

Anyway, unless the author had the full-game, it may be a prematurely formed opinion. I share a lot of the author's concerns (as I've voiced in other threads) but we won't know until we have the full game. Yes, the demo is supposed to be a glimpse of it, but we also know the demo had major features locked out so we didn't get the full experience.

[Rawgrim]

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...

[quote]Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
See Rawgrim great post. [/quote]
His post was decent and well thought out.    But that Doesn't mean that each one of his points can't be  completely  debunked.

Here....  Off the top of my head:
[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

Sure its a decline. No question about it.

1. Huge markers showing you where to go. Even inside buildings you get a marker showing you wich room the boss is.[/quote]
They can be turned off, Both in DA:O and DA2.  The option is there, so....


[quote]
2. Loads of things being "simplified". Rogues having an unlimited amount of smokebombs. Unlimited amount of arrows, and so on.[/quote]
Not only did we    also not need quivers of Arrows in DA:O, but  you didn't need them in BG2 or Neverwinter Nights either, as there were a few Bows, crossbows, darts and daggers that gave limitless ammo.  And oh yeah, I almost forgot... you couldn't even BE an archer in Planescape Torment.

[quote]
3. No friendly fire for the party. Unless in Nightmare mode, of course. This feature is now being viewed as nightmarishly hard, when it was considered to be normal difficulty some years back. Add to the fact that enemies (even enemy parties) have Friendly Fire turned on.[/quote]
Neverwinter nights  had no friendly fire on Normal.  and it's a 10 year old RPG...  or "old school" as  the popular term being used these days is.    And I'm wracking my brain trying to remember a single spell in Planescape: Torment, that  did friendly fire damage...



[quote]3. Static outfits for companions. Fighting a dragon, or a horde of darkspawn while wearing a shirt and a thong, has absolutely no negative effects. Let your tank draw all the heat, and have 1-3 mages rain area damage onto himher, and you win the fights easily (worked in the demo).[/quote]
Planescape torment featured scanitly clad companions who's gear was completely static.  In fact, in Planescape torment, your MAIN CHARACTER couldn't wear any armor at all... ever.

[quote]
4. Companions can only use 1 set of weapons. Varric, for example, can only use his crossbow. Isabela can only use two daggers (confirmed by the devs).[/quote]
In Planescape:  Torment, your companion's weapons were also locked on them,  and one companion couldn't even use weapons.    And Another companion could only use his teeth.




[quote]5. All non-combat skills are removed. The only thing you need to worry about now, is different ways of attacking enemies. thats it.[/quote]
 BG1 and BG2 had a grand total of Zero non-combat skills.

[quote]
6. Your dog gets summoned out of the blue. (no magic involved). Free extra character for the party right there.[/quote]
Figurines of wonderous power are staples of classic RPGs...  in BG2 you had a little plastic spider that you could use  every 5 minutes in order to get a  real spider companion to fight for you!  You also had a Genie bottle  you could do the same thing with.



[quote]
7. The journal spoonfeeding you exactly what to do. Add the huge spotlight on the map to the mix, and its impossible to get stuck in the game, even for a few minutes. No thinking involved there either.[/quote]
Same with BG2, Planescape Torment,  and neverwinter nights.  This is a complete non-point.

[quote]
8. 1 race to chose from, and 3 classes. Huge limitation there as well.[/quote]
Planescape: torment had... one race to choose from,   one gender to choose from,  one name to choose from  (that's right, you couldn't even NAME your character).    And One class to choose from  (you had to unlock the other 2 classes)

[quote]
9. Warriors can only use sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. Rogues can only use 2 daggers, or a bow. Not much to pick from there either.[/quote]
in Torment, you couldn't even use a shield.  or be an archer.    In BG1 you couldn't dualwield.

[quote]
10. Level scaled combat. Means that no matter what level you are at, when entering a dungeon, or facing a boss, you win. Simple as that.[/quote]
Level scaling has been in classic RPGs since BG2

And that's the point, people.  There's nothing but extremely faulty nostalgia  or something fueling these ridiculous  "RPGs are dying" threads.  You all don't  even remember  how annoyingly limited the RPGs of the past really were.


[/quote]

As I said earlier, I wasn\\ t comparing DA2 to any speciffic games. Just a small comment though. Dog isn`t a figurine of wonderous power. There is no magic involved with him at all. Had it been though, it would have been no problmen, if such things excist in the Dragon Age lore, of course.

[Melness]

Rawgrim wrote...

1. If the dragon bites you, its prefferable to be wearing armour, rather than a t-shirt.

2. Bag of Holding is a magical item. Taken from the d&d ruleset, actually. Since its a valuable (and rather rare) MAGICAL item, it makes your point invalid.

3. Actually about 90 percent of the rpgs simulated the need for amunition. Even Diablo did it. I suggest you try some old rpgs and check it out - just so you know what you are talking about.

4. The quiver you are talking about was also a magical item. Go figure.

5. Open world is a good thing, if one likes to explore and look around. Not everything has to have something quest related.

1- If a building falls over me, I'd rather be in a clunky chafed armor than clothes. Because that would protect me!

2- I, actually, specifically ruled out the Bag of Holding. But not the non-magical backpack or the non-magical girdle of a thousand projectiles.

3- Not realistically. Or, do you think you can actually carry 500 arrows in a backpack?

4- Here, I am not talking about how realistic. I am using these same magical items, of Plenty and Bag of Holding to show how much inventory is a pointless mechanic.

5- Baldur's Gate 10 woodland zones with 8 subquests and 3 funny npcs are as open as Denerim.

2. Yes it adds roleplaying, since your archer might, at some point run out of arrows, and you have to change your fightingstyle because of it. 

3. Its easy to manage friendly fire in most fights, sure. Again. I wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

4. Everyone can learn to use new weapons. Learning to use a ranged weapon, for example, is a smart thing to do in rpgs. You can, for example fire arrows at an opponent and possibly kill him before he reaches you. Or being able to damage a target that you, for some reason, just can`t reach with your daggers.

5. Again...wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

6. The dog isn`t a familiar.

7. Being spoonfed what to do is the same as reading a walkthrough.

8. When you play a pre-made character it limits things alot more than if you get to pick between 10 races, and 20 classes to play. But yes, you can roleplay it to a certain point. That much is true.

9. As i said: 2 weapon styles for 2 classes is limiting, especially when you could equip up to 20 different weapons for 20 different classes in older games.

2- Only if you want. With the marvels of Transdimensional Inventory, you simply didn't run out of arrows.

3- I know you weren't comparing, I did to mute your point. If Friendly Fire removal was such a bid deal, why did Baldur's Gate and Origins include so ways to not be subject to it, at all? Remove Magic anyone? Mana Clash, Sleep, Glyphs, Revival and so on?

In any case, Friendly Fire doesn't make the game that much harder, at all - you can pause the game and aim your fireball like crazy. In fact, such inhuman aim is slightly harder to reproduce in a setting where combat is faster.

Besides, the removal of friendly fire from pre-Nightmare modes warrants a rebalancing, which will probably happen.

4- And takes years of training since childhood. In Baldurs Gate, your character had professional training (without such, youre more likely to hurt an ally than anything) in so many weapons its counter-intuitive.

5- I did.

6- The mabari isn't as well. Yet you never care for him, not that he needs much care.

In the same vein, no one makes food in (origins) camp, or rather you never see anyone making food in camp.

In the same vein, your mabari comes from nowhere, or rather you don't see him outside combat. That doesn't say your dog comes from nowhere without magic involved. Its called Gameplay and Story Segregation, and seeing beyond it is called Roleplaying.

7- Being spoofed of things that an npc just told you is necessary for those that, for some reason, skip every dialogue or... perish the though, haven't played for quite sometime and got their minds on more important things, such as work.

8- CHARNAME was pre-made. The Warden was pre-made. And so is Hawke. They all had family before the Joining/Gorion's Murder/The Darkspawn invasion of Lothering.

And yes, you can roleplay to some extent that is potentially infinite, as long as you like roleplaying.

9- You had 4 tipes of weaponry limited to 4 styles. Two handed, one handed with shield, dual wield, one handed without shield. Swap the latter with archery and presto[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie], there are all your options when creating the character.

Modifié par Melness, 04 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[Dubya75]

[Ziggeh]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Clearly your ideal game is super mario with hot chick  and your lack of imagination now cost me the only third person party interaction I've love. The different between you and I is you have more option to pick. I have less. You have Mass Effect 2, God of War etc... I have none of this. 

My ideal game would be turn based, so I think I have you trumped in the "who's prefered niche has the least convincing death throes" stakes.

[AkiKishi]

Ziggeh wrote...

My ideal game would be turn based, so I think I have you trumped in the "who's prefered niche has the least convincing death throes" stakes.

Fortunately they are still quite common on handhelds.

[Gvaz]

*establishes a good game with some faults that would be easily fixed*

*guy at bioware goes "the usual guys, you know what to do about DA2"*

*developers remove some good and bad stuff wholesale, replace it with worse stuff*

"IT WILL SELL MILLIONS"

[Elsariel]

Who is this person who wrote this article and why in the world should I care about his opinion?

DA2 is different than DA:O. I would be a little disappointed if it were exactly the same. Not everyone thinks fast combat is a bad thing. Not everyone wants "more of the same" from their RPG's. I don't, and I've been playing them for 20 years.

[Rawgrim]

Melness wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

1. If the dragon bites you, its prefferable to be wearing armour, rather than a t-shirt.

2. Bag of Holding is a magical item. Taken from the d&d ruleset, actually. Since its a valuable (and rather rare) MAGICAL item, it makes your point invalid.

3. Actually about 90 percent of the rpgs simulated the need for amunition. Even Diablo did it. I suggest you try some old rpgs and check it out - just so you know what you are talking about.

4. The quiver you are talking about was also a magical item. Go figure.

5. Open world is a good thing, if one likes to explore and look around. Not everything has to have something quest related.

1- If a building falls over me, I'd rather be in a clunky chafed armor than clothes. Because that would protect me!

2- I, actually, specifically ruled out the Bag of Holding. But not the non-magical backpack or the non-magical girdle of a thousand projectiles.

3- Not realistically. Or, do you think you can actually carry 500 arrows in a backpack?

4- Here, I am not talking about how realistic. I am using these same magical items, of Plenty and Bag of Holding to show how much inventory is a pointless mechanic.

5- Baldur's Gate 10 woodland zones with 8 subquests and 3 funny npcs are as open as Denerim.

2. Yes it adds roleplaying, since your archer might, at some point run out of arrows, and you have to change your fightingstyle because of it. 

3. Its easy to manage friendly fire in most fights, sure. Again. I wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

4. Everyone can learn to use new weapons. Learning to use a ranged weapon, for example, is a smart thing to do in rpgs. You can, for example fire arrows at an opponent and possibly kill him before he reaches you. Or being able to damage a target that you, for some reason, just can`t reach with your daggers.

5. Again...wasn`t comparing DA2 to Origins.

6. The dog isn`t a familiar.

7. Being spoonfed what to do is the same as reading a walkthrough.

8. When you play a pre-made character it limits things alot more than if you get to pick between 10 races, and 20 classes to play. But yes, you can roleplay it to a certain point. That much is true.

9. As i said: 2 weapon styles for 2 classes is limiting, especially when you could equip up to 20 different weapons for 20 different classes in older games.

2- Only if you want. With the marvels of Transdimensional Inventory, you simply didn't run out of arrows.

3- I know you weren't comparing, I did to mute your point. If Friendly Fire removal was such a bid deal, why did Baldur's Gate and Origins include so ways to not be subject to it, at all? Remove Magic anyone? Mana Clash, Sleep, Glyphs, Revival and so on?

In any case, Friendly Fire doesn't make the game that much harder, at all - you can pause the game and aim your fireball like crazy. In fact, such inhuman aim is slightly harder to reproduce in a setting where combat is faster.

Besides, the removal of friendly fire from pre-Nightmare modes warrants a rebalancing, which will probably happen.

4- And takes years of training since childhood. In Baldurs Gate, your character had professional training (without such, youre more likely to hurt an ally than anything) in so many weapons its counter-intuitive.

5- I did.

6- The mabari isn't as well. Yet you never care for him, not that he needs much care.

In the same vein, no one makes food in (origins) camp, or rather you never see anyone making food in camp.

In the same vein, your mabari comes from nowhere, or rather you don't see him outside combat. That doesn't say your dog comes from nowhere without magic involved. Its called Gameplay and Story Segregation, and seeing beyond it is called Roleplaying.

7- Being spoofed of things that an npc just told you is necessary for those that, for some reason, skip every dialogue or... perish the though, haven't played for quite sometime and got their minds on more important things, such as work.

8- CHARNAME was pre-made. The Warden was pre-made. And so is Hawke. They all had family before the Joining/Gorion's Murder/The Darkspawn invasion of Lothering.

And yes, you can roleplay to some extent that is potentially infinite, as long as you like roleplaying.

9- You had 4 tipes of weaponry limited to 4 styles. Two handed, one handed with shield, dual wield, one handed without shield. Swap the latter with archery and presto[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie], there are all your options when creating the character.

2. Magical item. Different rules apply.

4. Takes 1 level up in origins, to be able to learn the first skill in bow, for example. Doesn`t take years. DA2 spans over 10 years, and still my warrior Hawke can`t learn how to use a bow or a dagger?

6. Actually I belive Alistair makes food in the camp. He talks about it with...Leiliana(I think).

7. People managed to finish games, even while working, without being spoonfed every single thing.

8. You could still play something else than human rogue, warrior or mage. More choices makes you feel like you are playing your own character abit more.

9. In older rpgs, you could have more than 20 different weapon combos. Now you have 2 for each class. Ergo the choices have declined.

[Arttis]

GvazElite wrote...

*establishes a good game with some faults that would be easily fixed*

*guy at bioware goes "the usual guys, you know what to do about DA2"*

*developers remove some good and bad stuff wholesale, replace it with worse stuff*

"IT WILL SELL MILLIONS"

They are probably right too.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Ziggeh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Clearly your ideal game is super mario with hot chick  and your lack of imagination now cost me the only third person party interaction I've love. The different between you and I is you have more option to pick. I have less. You have Mass Effect 2, God of War etc... I have none of this. 

My ideal game would be turn based, so I think I have you trumped in the "who's prefered niche has the least convincing death throes" stakes.

So you attack me with spreadsheet and imagination because no one care about your turn base? I pity you. I play a lot of turn based myself. My favorite all time cRPG TSR games were turn based.  

[Yrkoon]

Rawgrim wrote...

As I said earlier, I wasn t comparing DA2 to any speciffic games.

Then your argment doesn't make any sense.  How do you measure a decline  of a gaming genre, without comparing current games with past games?  How can you determine if  something has been "dumbed down" in the absense of  something un-'dumbed down" to compare it  with?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[Rawgrim]

Ziggeh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Clearly your ideal game is super mario with hot chick  and your lack of imagination now cost me the only third person party interaction I've love. The different between you and I is you have more option to pick. I have less. You have Mass Effect 2, God of War etc... I have none of this. 

My ideal game would be turn based, so I think I have you trumped in the "who's prefered niche has the least convincing death throes" stakes.

I think I saw something about a new rpg coming out this summer. Turn-based one. Avadon, or something like that. If turn based stuff is your favorite type of games, I could look up a link for it if you wish, and PM it to you.

[Sylriel]

I personally believe DA2 is a move in the right direction. It is true that many things have suffered from oversimplification, however, I merely consider them as growing pains as things improve for the better.

[Aidunno]

In my view (objective I know), Rawgrim's main argument can be summarized simply by saying: "...not realistic..."

Sticking to old school mechanics as it seems "more realistic" is one thing. Using realism as a mechanism of arguing that DA2 shows the "decline of the classic RPG" simply doesn't work. PnP RPG's and CRPG's have never and hopefully never will be realistic.