160 réponses à ce sujet

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

DA2 was pretty much made for consoles this time, not for PCs.

It was made for both platforms, since it is... drum-roll, coming out on both platforms.

They took the trouble to enable DX11 for PC users, so it was definitely not a port.

I'm pretty sure the scrolling, itemized nature of the UI (tactics etc) clearly shows that the game, was, in fact made for consoles. It's a bit aggravating when I'm playing at 1920 x 1200 res and I have to scroll through only 4? 5? choices in sub menus like the tactics menu. Everything has been shrunk down for televisions and console controllers that tend to select an option and then scroll to a choice. It's incredibly obvious, that despite their talk concerning the game being designed simultaneously for all platforms, that it is just lawyer speak that really means it was designed for the console and ported to the PC as it was designed, rather than designed for the console and waiting till it was done on the console completely and then ported to the PC. 

Not that any of this has to do with the rather poor manual included in the game.  Anyways, one piece of info in the manual I didn't really know already is that rogues get continoul stamina regen every time they hit an enemy. I had kind of assumed the incredibly quick stamina (and mana for that matter) regeneration in the demo was just how it was to promote ability spam, but it would seem if you really want to ability spam, you should play a rogue. 

[ErichHartmann]

The last time I needed to read a manual was for old school flight simulator's on the PC. (Honestly, the only manual I have bothered to keep is Baldur's Gate II.) Disappointed we won't be getting another cloth map though.  

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 04 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[Leonick91]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Manuals are a waste of paper / trees. I'd be happier if they stopped including one at all in games... they were a thing of joy to go through from the early days of video gaming, but they're obsolete and not needed in gaming today.. they just serve to waste resources and pollute.

Seriously, I am not ****ing about the physicality of the manual. It is the quality of the information. I am FINE with a PDF, in fact, with the ubiquity of PDF manuals, one would think that the quality, with the consideration of publication costs, would increase.

Well the quality of the information is great, you're just looking at the worng place, it is in the game

[JamminSalmons]

I only read the manuals in the bathroom, so it's not a great loss. Still, it's not much fun reading EA's 2 page, black and white fliers.

Rockstar knows what's up, though.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Leonick91 wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Manuals are a waste of paper / trees. I'd be happier if they stopped including one at all in games... they were a thing of joy to go through from the early days of video gaming, but they're obsolete and not needed in gaming today.. they just serve to waste resources and pollute.

Seriously, I am not ****ing about the physicality of the manual. It is the quality of the information. I am FINE with a PDF, in fact, with the ubiquity of PDF manuals, one would think that the quality, with the consideration of publication costs, would increase.

Well the quality of the information is great, you're just looking at the worng place, it is in the game

How do you know? Have you played the game? Can the quality of opaque and ponderous menus designed for console navigation be a faster source of information for the PC than a well-written manual?

[Lord_Saulot]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

DA2 was pretty much made for consoles this time, not for PCs.

It was made for both platforms, since it is... drum-roll, coming out on both platforms.

They took the trouble to enable DX11 for PC users, so it was definitely not a port.

I'm pretty sure the scrolling, itemized nature of the UI (tactics etc) clearly shows that the game, was, in fact made for consoles. It's a bit aggravating when I'm playing at 1920 x 1200 res and I have to scroll through only 4? 5? choices in sub menus like the tactics menu. Everything has been shrunk down for televisions and console controllers that tend to select an option and then scroll to a choice. It's incredibly obvious, that despite their talk concerning the game being designed simultaneously for all platforms, that it is just lawyer speak that really means it was designed for the console and ported to the PC as it was designed, rather than designed for the console and waiting till it was done on the console completely and then ported to the PC. 

I think this is far from clear.  Everyone I know who has played both console and PC versions of the demo has said the PC version still plays better and feels more natural.  Also, they have worked on a number of graphics options that only apply to PC users, and console users with standard definition TVs have complained about the text being unreadable.

It seems that both PC and console users feel compromised in some ways, so there is no obvious-ness to it being a "port" either way.

[ClassyUnicorn]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

 Theres a downloadable manual? Does anyone have a link to it? 

I second this question.

[tasca1180]

*nostalgically pets Civilization manual/book*

[Navasha]

Most games don't even need a manual anymore. I can't remember the last game that I have even bothered to open the manual. Even Civilization which usually was the thickest, I don't really need to review anymore. Most controls and games have become sort of standardized anyway. If I want to know the keybindings, I usually just open up the options menu and look anyway.
And... I am an 'old school' PC gamer that has been playing games for over 3 decades now.
If there is ever a revolutionary new game that isn't following the same tried and true formulas, I think I would like a better manual, but its pretty unnecessary for most games especially sequels.

[IronVanguard]

I've always read the manual before I start up the game, if it's a physical copy. Always.

I get that they're hardly necessary, but I found them enjoyable. On top of the having all the important information so I'd go in knowing what I was doing, they tended to have some art or lore or character descriptions and whatnot.

[Foolsfolly]

Publishers should not underestimate the importance of a good manual. Of course, it may be a generational thing. I grew up playing games back when most of the story came in the packaging, due to technical limitations in gaming at the time.

But I love my game manuals. I love the tiny bits of back story they can tell, or lore about the world you'll be in. I liked reading the manual before even playing the game (or while I was installing it onto a computer if it was a PC game).

But I can't remember the last game manual that had nice depth to it...maybe WarCraft 3. It came with two manuals and was full of lore.

I miss good manuals.

[AtreiyaN7]

What you were expecting - a full-sized hardbound D&D manual? Now I'm one of those people who always reads the manual, dating back to the days when you could get a manual that was a hundred pages with a complete list of all spell descriptions, etc. I enjoy a detailed manual just as much as any other hardcore manual reader, but most of the things you list will be explained in the game.

You can hover over the skills/abilities to get a description. Stats are explained in the game, including their benefits (seen in gameplay videos). Spec descriptions are also in the game. I think that tactics are pretty self-explanatory once you go into the menus and poke around. I don't know what you want them to do - provide entire macros detailing what to do for people? As for crafting, seriously, it wasn't exactly complicated in Origins, so I'm not sure how much detail is required for that aside from informing you that you need to pick up the appropriate skills, materials & designs/recipes.

EDIT: Also, they really are saving a lot of trees - what can I say, I'm environmentally conscious.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 mars 2011 - 11:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Printed manuals are a thing of the past, as retailers demand a lower mass package.

But that's no reason not to have a detailed digital manual. Mike had said that we'd get more information about the game's mechanics. So where is it if not in the manual? How am I supposed to learn the game well enough to plan a character if the game isn't documented somewhere?

[Haus of Dye]

Wait...where can I download the manual???

[SnowHeart1]

*cue the nostalgia music*

There was a time, oh, fifteen to twenty years ago, when a friend and I could -- more often than not -- judge the quality of a game we were thinking of buying simply by the heft of the box. If it was heavy, there was a thick manual. A thick manual suggested either a complicated game (simulator) or a lot of depth to the world (explaining the backstory, mechanics of the RPG systems, etc.). Today, you can't do that. Saves paper, sure; silly way to judge a game, probably, particularly given the ease of finding reviews today and mobile devices... But yeah... the nostalgic part in me misses hefty manuals. These pamphlets that get passed off today as manuals are a joke.

[Daniteh]

 First thing you see is in all caps EPILEPSY WARNING 

[sonsonthebia07]

I usually don't read manuals before playing games. I like learning as I go. If I really don't understand something, I'll see if I can find it in the manual. If I want something as big as manuals for older PC games, I'll just buy the strategy guide or be cheap and look it up online.

The whole console insulting jazz is very old. We all know everything is the fault of games coming out on consoles. Rabble, rabble, rabble. I've heard it already.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

What you were expecting - a full-sized hardbound D&D manual? Now I'm one of those people who always reads the manual, dating back to the days when you could get a manual that was a hundred pages with a complete list of all spell descriptions, etc. I enjoy a detailed manual just as much as any other hardcore manual reader, but most of the things you list will be explained in the game.

Once we're in the game, it's too late.  How can we design our characters' personalities if we don't know how the world in which they live actually works?

I want those spell descriptions in the manual.  I want every UI element explained.  This information needs to be available to us before we play the game.

[Loc'n'lol]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But that's no reason not to have a detailed digital manual. Mike had said that we'd get more information about the game's mechanics. So where is it if not in the manual? How am I supposed to learn the game well enough to plan a character if the game isn't documented somewhere?

You mouse over the buttons in your character sheet ?
Frankly, it can't be worse than in DAO where the tooltips were extremely vague and several abilities didn't even do what was written...

[Thamous]

I still read my old Age of Empires and Empire Earth manual when I want something to read. Those things were like 200 pages long. They were practically novels.

[Rylor Tormtor]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


EDIT: Also, they really are saving a lot of trees - what can I say, I'm environmentally conscious.

I really wish people would read. It is not that hard. It seems most of you are like my students at university, you just won't READ before you comment.

I am talking about the downloaded manual. The actual PHYSICAL manifestation of the manual is IRRELEVANT. I want the digital PDF to be more informative that it is. Apparently, I am in the minority here on the boards. I suppose this horse is, in fact, dead.

[AtreiyaN7]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

What you were expecting - a full-sized hardbound D&D manual? Now I'm one of those people who always reads the manual, dating back to the days when you could get a manual that was a hundred pages with a complete list of all spell descriptions, etc. I enjoy a detailed manual just as much as any other hardcore manual reader, but most of the things you list will be explained in the game.

Once we're in the game, it's too late.  How can we design our characters' personalities if we don't know how the world in which they live actually works?

I want those spell descriptions in the manual.  I want every UI element explained.  This information needs to be available to us before we play the game.

Yes, Sylvius, I know you do. *comforting pat*

[Hylan Dronta]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

DA2 was pretty much made for consoles this time, not for PCs.

It was made for both platforms, since it is... drum-roll, coming out on both platforms.

They took the trouble to enable DX11 for PC users, so it was definitely not a port.

I'm pretty sure the scrolling, itemized nature of the UI (tactics etc) clearly shows that the game, was, in fact made for consoles. It's a bit aggravating when I'm playing at 1920 x 1200 res and I have to scroll through only 4? 5? choices in sub menus like the tactics menu. Everything has been shrunk down for televisions and console controllers that tend to select an option and then scroll to a choice. It's incredibly obvious, that despite their talk concerning the game being designed simultaneously for all platforms, that it is just lawyer speak that really means it was designed for the console and ported to the PC as it was designed, rather than designed for the console and waiting till it was done on the console completely and then ported to the PC. 

I think this is far from clear.  Everyone I know who has played both console and PC versions of the demo has said the PC version still plays better and feels more natural.  Also, they have worked on a number of graphics options that only apply to PC users, and console users with standard definition TVs have complained about the text being unreadable.

It seems that both PC and console users feel compromised in some ways, so there is no obvious-ness to it being a "port" either way.

I felt exactly the opposite.  DA2 seems way more natural on the 360 than the PC version, where as DAO was the opposite.

[Sylvius the Mad]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

You mouse over the buttons in your character sheet ?

That happens after class selection.  It's too late.

Frankly, it can't be worse than in DAO where the tooltips were extremely vague and several abilities didn't even do what was written...

That DAO did it badly (and it did - DAO was very poorly documented) does not given them permission to do it badly again.

This is like the justification that DA2's dialogue system will be better than ME's.  Well of course it will, ME's dialogue system horrific - being better than that tells us almost nothing about the quality of the DA2 feature.

DA2's documentation should strive to be at least as complete and detailed as NWN's documentation.  That's a nice manual of middling quality.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

I am talking about the downloaded manual. The actual PHYSICAL manifestation of the manual is IRRELEVANT. I want the digital PDF to be more informative that it is. Apparently, I am in the minority here on the boards. I suppose this horse is, in fact, dead.

I'm happy to animate the horse so we can beat it some more.