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[xThunderblazex]

Random70 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

malu2573 wrote...

The official strategy guides are more helpful IMO

Aren't the strategy guides also filled with spoilers?  Maps and NPC names and the like?

If so, then I never want to look at one.  But if not, I'm ordering one today.

Exactly why documentation is so poor these days. Why give something for free when they can charge $20?

GameFAQs is free and has been growing in popularity over the years...strategy guides are a big waste of money.

[r2dr]

Strategy guides have always been for chumps.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Printed manuals are a thing of the past, as retailers demand a lower mass package.

But that's no reason not to have a detailed digital manual. Mike had said that we'd get more information about the game's mechanics. So where is it if not in the manual? How am I supposed to learn the game well enough to plan a character if the game isn't documented somewhere?

It's documented in the game. I believe all abilities in the full version are described in full in the skill section. In addition, the tooltips are significantly improved in DA2. They're not perfect (we don't have a way of seeing numerically what enemy HP is) but we have better character building information.

[Malu Cap]

xThunderblazex wrote...

Random70 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

malu2573 wrote...

The official strategy guides are more helpful IMO

Aren't the strategy guides also filled with spoilers?  Maps and NPC names and the like?

If so, then I never want to look at one.  But if not, I'm ordering one today.

Exactly why documentation is so poor these days. Why give something for free when they can charge $20?

GameFAQs is free and has been growing in popularity over the years...strategy guides are a big waste of money.

Just to put things into context.  Between the manual and the strategy guide, the latter contains more information than the former, which was what I was driving at (hence better).  That being said, strategy guides do contain spoilers (specially the walkthrough portion).  For me I find the list portions (i.e. talent, bestiary etc) helpful.  Unfortunately not all free, online FAQ's/guides contain those lists, they are more of walkthroughs (like IGN's for instance)

Thunderblazex has hit a valid point though.  I think the reason documentation in free manuals has become shoddy is because from a business standpoint you can put it in a 'strategy guide' and sell it for additional bucks.  That's my two cents. 

[aliswann10]

The last stategy guide I bought was when FF 7 came out. It ruined the game for me because it spoiled the game for me. If you feel like you need help, look online. The real kicker is when I saw gamestop sell an inch thick strategy guide for the force unleashed 2. Seriously???????

[JedTed]

Critizing the MANUAL? Really?!

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

It's documented in the game. I believe all abilities in the full version are described in full in the skill section. In addition, the tooltips are significantly improved in DA2. They're not perfect (we don't have a way of seeing numerically what enemy HP is) but we have better character building information.

Based on the demo, I didn't see any way to tell what the damage formula of an offensive ability is.  Did I just miss it?  If the ability does 184 damage now, why is that?  How would that change if I altered my Magic attribute? 

And again, once I'm in the game it's too late.  I would need to create three different characters (one of each class) and begin play just to find out how the abilities work.

[Yamsandjams]

Well, they have some description on the stats screen that says what abilities improve what. So if your a mage and you improve your magic attribute, you can be certain the damage for you attacks will go up. It also seems to be dependent upon level and equipment, the latter of which you had no control over in the demo. As for how much, I don't know. But I'm not sure that's critically important since you can be sure it will be higher. I've never known a developer to list their formulas in the release of a game anyhow.

Besides, if your that much of a keener, I would think that you'd be making 3 characters anyways. And someone will likely post something on gamefaqs pertaining to this after some time.

Modifié par Yamsandjams, 05 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Greed1914]

F4d3s wrote...


dont most game have in-game help and tutorials now anyways? I mean look at the wow manual..it didn't have much either.

Yep.  That is a big reason why companies have been reducing manuals.  Most games offer an in-game tutorial now and many allow you to look things up within the game.  I know that Ubisoft has pretty much done away with manuals.  The one they included with Assassin's Creed Brotherhood only had the stuff you see at the start of every manual like "How to start your system."  Basically, they only include the stuff they have to now, and I don't expect that to last much longer since it's not exactly hard to figure out.

[Buffy-Summers]

Sim City 2000 had a three ring binder 200 page manual

Most console games in 2011 have a 3 page pamphlet

Its a disgrace that they cost more now then then

Ultima 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 all had cloth maps, a trinket and many had 2 manuals over 40 pages long

[ransompendragon]

Pretty soon these kids won't expect a game with their games!

[Naitaka]

So...who's going to start the "DAII: The Missing Manual" page this time...?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Naitaka wrote...

So...who's going to start the "DAII: The Missing Manual" page this time...?

With Georg gone, our best BioWare source for mechanical data appears to be Peter Thomas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yamsandjams wrote...

As for how much, I don't know. But I'm not sure that's critically important since you can be sure it will be higher.

How much is vital.  If you're making a decision when levelling up to choose one stat point or another, knowing which value increased what effects by what amount allows you to make an informed judgment.  Otherwise, you're just guessing.

Without these formulae, the game isn't playable.  Not even from the beginning.

I've never known a developer to list their formulas in the release of a game anyhow.

All of BioWare's D&D based games did exactly this.

Besides, if your that much of a keener, I would think that you'd be making 3 characters anyways.

But these three characters are just for fact-finding.  The actual characters I want to play, with their coherent personalities and stat allocations, will be based on these mechanical data which are not yet available to me.

Mike Laidlaw has spoken openly about how much he likes the WoW design of hiding mechanical information from new players.  I can see why he might want to make awareness of the game's mechanics optional, but actually hiding it from us such that we can't have it - that's something I will not tolerate.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[CitizenThom]

IronVanguard wrote...

I too prefer long, informative manuals that no longer seem to pop up these days.

It's too bad, I suppose. I did enjoy them.

Not to date myself... but I miss the days of the 50-125 page game manuals that used to come with Sega Genesis games and PC games alike.

[JedTed]

Paper Manuals are a thing of the past, it's far easier to just have a digital manual which you can access while playing the game.  Plus it helps save trees man!

[RPGamer13]

Manual quality has been taking a hit since Mass Effect and Too Human.

It could be a couple reasons:

They might leave out important info as a ploy to get get you to buy the strategy guides

Developers have realized a redundancy in having something in te manual and having a tutorial about it during the game, but that doesn't explain missing important info like what the dialogue icons mean

[imkaoo]

Can you download this manual anywhere?

[Yamsandjams]

I think someone posted a link earlier, or perhaps it was for particular download providers, not sure. Apparently the manual isn't worth it's weight in paper (or space in memory, for pdfs) anyhow, so I don't think you'll be missing much.

[Katreyn]

I guess manuals are dying, most usually have a page stuck in the side of the case to show a pretty picture and specs, because almost every game has a tutorial segment at the beginning of the game.

I found the warning precautions to prevent epileptic seizures amusing tho. >.> The directions for things these days really disturb me how dumbed down they have to be.

[Yamsandjams]

kwoods88 wrote...

I guess manuals are dying, most usually have a page stuck in the side of the case to show a pretty picture and specs, because almost every game has a tutorial segment at the beginning of the game.

I found the warning precautions to prevent epileptic seizures amusing tho. >.> The directions for things these days really disturb me how dumbed down they have to be.

That's not the manufacturer's choice though. Most would omit that information if they weren't required to put it there.

I too usually thumb through the manual once completely before playing the game, but I tend not to look at it ever again after that. I suppose if it's a digital copy it's no big deal since it doesn't waste paper and can be essentially downloaded and deleted at will. It's a well known fact that documentation largely goes unread though. Game manuals used to be rather necessary because older games didn't have tutorials sometimes and you had to figure out how to play. Nowadays, I think they really just a vestigal asepct for games, and I wouldn't be surprised if they disappeared completely in a few years.

I think I remember manuals like the Diablo 2 or the Warcraft 2 manual being stuffed with lore. They had sketches and descriptions of the characters, information about the worlds and history... I don't think the majority of consumers read those parts though, nor was it the primary purpose motivating their purchase, so the money spent on that possibly wasn't used in the best manner. Today though, there's much more efficient an cost-effective ways to distribute such information, and it's convenient enough to do it through the game itself, with codex entries and whatnot.

I guess manuals can sometime be cool little collector items though... not that they'd really be worth anything, I'm guessing.

[Lord Gremlin]

Zalocx wrote...

400 page manuals are a thing of the past, regardless of platform

Demon's Souls anyone? That game had ridiculously thick manual. And that didn't help, it was still hard as nails. Look, I don't expect manual to be guide, and you people seem to mistake it's for a strategy guide.

What I care about is color. I don't like black & white manuals. Sometimes EU version of a game has colored manual, like Fist of the North Star, and sometimes a big release like Killzone 3 have b&w manual in collectors edition. As for DA2 I really, really hope that SE comes with colored manual.

[Katreyn]

Yes I love a lot of the older manuals. I recall thumbing through them just for stuff to read. Fallout 1 manual comes to mind. I love that manual. Full of little tidbits of lore, and information. And the "survival recipes"

It doesn't surprise me manuals are getting so small now though. Couple of times I've bought a used console game the manual isn't there. And the couple I see are only a few pages long with a general overview or something.

[Northern26]

The only time I've needed to use a manual was when the game was horribad and I had to figure out what the hell was going on.

[PhrosniteAgainROFL]

Manual? What's that? Just kidding.... People still use those? OMFG!