19 réponses à ce sujet

[elektrikwizard]

 I'm currently in the process of making a Rogue/Assassin/Invisible Blade for the NWN2 OC. I have Weapon Finesse, of course. Obviously I'll have to go with daggers to be an IB, but other than being able to do that class, I don't see any advantages of wielding daggers over short swords, or--even better--rapiers (18-20 crit instead of 19-20 like swords). Do I get more attacks per round with melee daggers? If so, does Sneak Attack apply to all attacks per round or just the first? I've been searching the web for days on old and new forums, Google, etc., and have yet to find a concrete answer.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Arkalezth]

They're tiny. Small races take an AB penalty with a shortsword in the off-hand (and every race with a rapier). However, kukris are also tiny, with a better critical range, and they qualify for IB. You need martial proficiency for kukris, though. Wizards can also get some use from daggers.

Also, no daggers feels...wrong.

[dunniteowl]

Originally in D&D a thief could only properly backstab with a dagger and was limited to defending/attacking in normal manner with only Dagger, Sling, Shortsword, Darts and a Club or Sap. Not much, but the idea was that the Thief's primary role as a skulker in dark places and a pretty quietly moving one at that couldn't carry a bow, crossbow, broadsword, longsword etc as they were all too bulky and would end up making too much noise or impeding the movements that theives rely so heavily upon.

Now, the days have changed and just about anyone can be a theif and they can use whatever weapons they please it seems and not be penalized. You want a thief to wield a scythe, go ahead, just get the martial/exotic weapons proficiency. He can even backstab with it.

I'm not saying the old rules had it down pat, because there were plenty of logical inconsistencies and gaping rules holes you could toss a Frost Giant through, but the current rules have sort of the same issues, just in different areas. It's like patching holes in a wall with wall material from the same wall. No matter how many holes you've patched, there's a hole left behind somewhere.

There was a time when no self respecting Wizard would ever touch a sword of ANY kind, other than to cast Detect Magic or Identify on it, so the fighter would know whether or not to keep it or sell it -- or give it to the thief. Those days are long gone, but some of the anachronisms have lingered while other rules have seemingly been put in place, they forgot to explain the rationales for keeping some things old and not explaining what the new things should improve upon.

No biggie. But, someday, the weapons rules will make more sense and the explications for why some things would still be there with all these other options might be made. Until then, like Austin Powers said in "The Spy Who Shagged Me," in regard to Time Travel:

Don't worry about the paradoxes, man, they'll just get you all wierded out and you won't be able to pay attention. For you folks at home as well, we recommend you just go with it and enjoy the story.

dunniteowl

[Arkalezth]

I kinda liked what you describe. It still worked that way in BG2 and other Infinity Engine games, though multiclassing was also available, but not like in NWN2.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 05 mars 2011 - 01:24 .

[metatheurgist]

dunniteowl wrote...
Now, the days have changed and just about anyone can be a theif and they can use whatever weapons they please it seems and not be penalized. You want a thief to wield a scythe, go ahead, just get the martial/exotic weapons proficiency. He can even backstab with it.

We call them Rou...Rogues now. Not everyone that sneaks around and kills with finesse wants to climb walls and steal things. But I agree it'd be unlikely for a thief to climb walls and burglarise with a broadsword or longbow strapped to ther person.

dunniteowl wrote...
There was a time when no self respecting Wizard would ever touch a sword of ANY kind, other than to cast Detect Magic or Identify on it, so the fighter would know whether or not to keep it or sell it -- or give it to the thief. Those days are long gone, but some of the anachronisms have lingered while other rules have seemingly been put in place, they forgot to explain the rationales for keeping some things old and not explaining what the new things should improve upon.

This I never understood. If I knew there was a chance I'd run of out spells sometime I'd make damn sure I got proficient with a weapon. I'd rather wave a sword around ineffectually than use strong language to defend myself. I also don't get why many mages would choose to adventure in robes. But I don't hold anything against people that wish to maintan the stereotype (it makes them easier to identify in a fight, kind of like saluting an officer in the field).

Modifié par metatheurgist, 05 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[kamal_]

Well, I'm fixing that for my sp module anyway. Daggers will be an excellent choice there. 

Modifié par kamal_, 05 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[bealzebub]

I've always been a fan of daggers and the invisible blade. I like to use the inverted daggers override.

[kamal_]

Well, things in the OC are so enchanted it essentially doesn't matter, as enchantment bonuses generally far outweigh the differences in damage from the base weapon. Just pick a weapon you like and go with it.

[dunniteowl]

I never really understood all the restrictions myself on weapons learned, but, learning to use a sword does take time. Last I checked, learning to use magic (unless you're a sorceror or warlock) also takes time. Arcane mages were limited to simple weapons, again, explicated well in early editions of the rules and ignored completely in later editions. If you have to spend your early days being tutored by a mage of renown (which also means you're their errand runner, servant, housemaid, butler and cook) you don't have time to learn anything more than the basic skills of holding a weapon. A club, knife, dagger, sling, staff (arguably not that easy to learn, really) were all you'd have time for as you'd basically have to instruct yourself.

Actually, that was really my point in my first post. Things are just glossed over and no rationale or rational explanation for WHY things are the way they are is given. The later editions only focus on the hows and whats of rules use and selection of class skills, but nothing at all is said as to the reasons there are, say, classes in the first place, or restrictions on weapons (which nowadays there really aren't -- if you can afford the point buy at levelup, it's yours.)

So sometimes, a question like, "Why daggers in the first place?" comes up, because there isn't an answer in current books and resources on D&D -- and there really ought to be. In my opinon, one of the more distinctive and immersive concepts applied to the Player's Handbooks and Dungeon Master's Guides were the use of not just descriptive text that was "period-like," but the explanations for why a class had certain restrictions on weapons, skills or abilities, describing in brief detail what it takes to be a member of that class of character. Alas, this is all but gone, lost in the fray of ever expanding rules, skills, classes, feats and abilities (with their attendant explication of HOW to use them, WHAT they can do and WHEN they can be used) and the reasons WHY are being lost in the soup.

And I don't *think* I'm complaining, really. More hoping to point out a small error of writing within a genre of gaming that sort of demands a level of immersive WHY as well as all that necessary HOW WHAT WHEN WHO stuff. I think part of the job of the core books should be to help folks understand the general nature of the "world" they are most likely to find themselves within. To sort of give them a basic background of why things are the way they are.

I think asking questions is great. Pondering them is even better. Being able to answer them (at least those that have them) is another step towards enlightenment -- even if it is just a game.

best regards,
dunniteowl

[Arkalezth]

Daggers just fit the setting. They're a classic weapon. Most D&D weapons are (or were, originally) based on an european medieval setting. Kukris or kamas don't fit that setting.

I'd like to see more love for daggers in NWN2. So kudos to Kamal for using them in Crimmor.

[M. Rieder]

DNO said....

"Originally in D&D a thief could only properly backstab with a dagger and was limited to defending/attacking in normal manner with only Dagger, Sling, Shortsword, Darts and a Club or Sap. Not much, but the idea was that the Thief's primary role as a skulker in dark places and a pretty quietly moving one at that couldn't carry a bow, crossbow, broadsword, longsword etc as they were all too bulky and would end up making too much noise or impeding the movements that theives rely so heavily upon."



...so you're saying that my dual wield greatsword rogue build isn't realistic?

Modifié par M. Rieder, 06 mars 2011 - 08:26 .

[kamal_]

M. Rieder wrote...
...so you're saying that my dual wield greatsword rogue build isn't realistic?

The firegiant? He needs to put a few points into hide first so he can sneak up on people.

[likeorasgod]

kamal_ wrote...

Well, I'm fixing that for my sp module anyway. Daggers will be an excellent choice there. 

This would be nice, I've allways enjoyed the dual dagger (or short sword for my Half-elf) Thief when I played, but in most models/camp you tend to not do well cause your not tanked or high DPS.

I been eyeing makeing my a Kender R/IB/A for my next run through OC content or a good modul/camp...wait did I say kender, I ment halfling...in the middle of reading a Dragonlance book...sorry.

Which would allso be a cool thing if any one mad any packs with dragonlance races or mod/camps.  I actualy played more TT there than I did in forgotenrealms.

[elektrikwizard]

I really appreciate all of the responses; however, the closest thing to a real answer to my question has been from Kamal, saying that because of all of the enchanted weapons you find in OC, it doesn't really matter too much. Dunniteowl has brought up some valid points as to the "why's," but I have yet to read anywhere a yes or no answer. Repeating: "Do I get more attacks per round with daggers, and if so, do all of those attacks get the sneak attack bonus?" I really do appreciate everyone's input, but most of it is information I've already come across in my hours of scrounging forums for information. So... if you aren't going to answer my question, STOP POSTING!

[Arkalezth]

elektrikwizard wrote...

"Do I get more attacks per round with daggers,

No.

do all of those attacks get the sneak attack bonus?"

From stealth, only some of them, after a Feint, all of them in the next 6 seconds. If flanking...sometimes, it depends on the mood of the game...

[elektrikwizard]

THANK YOU! It's much appreciated.

[The Fred]

dunniteowl wrote...
There was a time when no self respecting Wizard would ever touch a sword of ANY kind, other than to cast Detect Magic or Identify on it, so the fighter would know whether or not to keep it or sell it -- or give it to the thief.

Tell that to Imoen in by current BG no-reload challenge. As a dual-classed Thief/Illusionist, she tends to use a short bow and spells, pulling out a longsword on occasion.

And sorry, Elektrikwizard, we're prone to wanton discussion of this nature. To come back to your original question, however, the main advantage daggers have is that they're of the smallest weapon category, which can make a difference if you're of a small race. Also, everyone can use them without having to invest a feat. Statistically, though, they're not that great. Things like Kamal's hidden weapon system might lend them some favour, though.

Modifié par The Fred, 13 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[Rex Radar]

[quote]Arkalezth wrote...

[quote]elektrikwizard wrote...

"Do I get more attacks per round with daggers,[/quote]
No.



Advantage of either daggers or kurkis over short swirds come from lower AB duel wielding penilites due to tiny status. True there's lower damage, but given the same amount of attacks you will hit more often. Theroeticly you should end up doing more damage with them because you will have hit the enemy more.

[Arkalezth]

Only for small races.

[MokahTGS]

The Guildwars 2 take on the Thief

Watching those videos makes me wissful for better rogue animations in NWN2....

As many have said, the current DnD rule setup in NWN2 makes all classes less special.  Quite often, I look at all the choices and builds that people make and shrug my shoulders, because in game (especially in the OC) it just doesn't matter.

I LOVE that Kamal is making a rogue-centric mod...bring the special back!