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[Tykipon]

ArawnNox wrote...

Did anyone ever consider that Thedas (or
at least the sections that we see) have no concept of sexual labels?
Let alone bi/homosexuality? Some ancient cultures considered having a
lover of the same sex to be no different than regularly seeing a
particular prostitute (see Feudal Japan). Or that not having a sexual relationship with the young man you were training was considered to be odd. (see ancient Sparta).

My
point is, Dragon Age seems to be devoid of these labels. Lelianna talks
about her relationship with Marjolaine rather freely. Zeveran is fairly
open about how he finds both genders attractive. Oghren's wife, Branka,
has a female lover, yet this isn't that big of a deal. Even in the
novel "The Calling" there's a gay couple, but no one cares or judges
them. To push the point home, are the terms "gay", "straight", or "bi" ever used in any of the Dragon Age sources?

Thedas/Dragon
Age seems to be working from the standpoint that there are no labels,
no lines, no divisions of sexuality, so much so that someone can be with
someone and feel no outside pressure from society to conform on that
level. It's not a result of "bad" writing, or even necissarily "mass
audience appeal" its just presenting a culture that is different from
our own modern mindset and is possibly more in line with some of the
fabled aspects of Ancient Greece/Japan/Celts.

Well said.

Modifié par Tykipon, 06 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[Z.Z]

tomas819 wrote...

I wonder what would have happened if Bioware had made all of the LIs in DA2 straight but then offered DLC companion characters that were exclusively m/m or f/f romanceable. Say, for the sake of argument, that Anders, Merrill, Isabella (well, maybe not Isabella!), and Fenris are all straight and are written that way.

My best guess is that the DLC sales (i.e., the now gay Sebastian and his female counterpart) would have still been profitable and that the backstories and character development and dialog for ALL of the romanceable characters in the game would have been more consistent and interesting across the board. This might have even made their DLC backstories and personal quests more interesting, frankly. Any and all romances, of course, would still be totally optional.

This kind of approach would have eliminated the ambiguity regarding Anders, etc., problems in story-telling, and the general implausibility of "the rampant bi-ness in Ferelden" that seems to be bothering some people.

Haha then people like me that prefer BI characters would be disappointed.
No, Bioware simply can't make everyone happy, and I think that's fine. Other games that don't have same sex romance options at all actually receive little or no complaint...seems kinda unfair.
I really like the all-characters-are-BI idea but even if DA2 were like DAO, or ME which lacks gay romance, I'd still buy it and probably enjoy it. I don't understand why some people are so picky. I mean, Bioware has been really brave and we should appreciate it.

Modifié par Z.Z, 06 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[thedistortedchild]

I keep seeing the argument that changing sexuality or having a fluid sexuality changes the character. It doesn't. The only thing sexuality changes is who they are willing to sleep with, not who they are as people.

Also, ninja-mances have been eliminated through the new flirt icon, so if you don't flirt with them there won't be a romance.

How is this something you object to?

Modifié par thedistortedchild, 06 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[randName]

As for the general question: my issue is that you are too restrictive in your character; and that some companions that should be romancable aren't, take Aveline Vallen; she is obviously single, and at least can love men; and its locked off. Maybe you can try and be shot down, but the more limits a game places on your main the more frustrating it is. & I in this prefer quantity over quality. 

Also when your Hawk/Shappard etc. is a horny ape, just wanting to get it on, there is always the risk of it being put of before the epic finally; always making your avatar a fridgid sap of a woman/man.

DSerpa wrote...

Everytime someone makes another ****ing romance thread I buy a puppy and break its neck.

Don't make me kill him.

I'll start making them, if you start breaking them.

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[Arrtis]

TallBearNC wrote...

Well, in DA:O there were heated discussions as some characters were straight or bi. None were just "gay". People were upset they could not romance Alistair as a male character. Other people had a valid argument "You can just romance anyone like that in RL!" While that might be TRUE. This is a fantasy RPG where the player plays to get away from RL. Hence why people used the dev console and eventually modded the game to romance anyone.
If BW wanted to keep EVERYONE happy, the best solution would be to make all romanceable characters "bi" Why?
1) People who want just hetero romances can have them
2) people who want to sleep with EVERYONE can do it
3) people who want just same sex relationships can do it
.... this win/win for all.
Now if everyone is NOT "bi" in DA2, then you'll see a mod within a week or two that will fix this.. and if this is ANYTHING like DA0 (and from teh demo console it looks like it is).. I'll be able to make everyone bi from the games internal console

So this argument over sexuality is a MOOT point. Either BW has made them all bi, or they are not and the gamming comunity will mod the game. So NO arguments, and NO flaming is needed.

I disagree.
It takes away realism.
It takes away a lot more than just that.

[Maria Caliban]

I have no problem with all the characters being bi. I have no problem with the characters being straight, bisexual, or gay if that's how the writers see them. I have no problem with BioWare writing a game with no romances or only straight romances.

Oh, obviously, that's not what I wish for, but I don't believe BioWare is obliged to give me a same-sex romance in every game.

I would rather not see a character be straight in one playthrough and gay in another, however.

Remember that when I argued that the ME 2 style of character outfits was a good thing, I said it was because I liked visually distinctive companions that dressed as they would dress. Jack's outfit in ME 2 may not have been realistic in a vacuum, but it was an excellent expression of the character.

Some people weren't happy that Jack talks about sleeping with a couple, suggesting she's bisexual, but isn't interested in FemShep. Yes, well, you don't have to be bisexual to sleep with a member of your own sex. Especially when it comes to someone who is young, mentally unstable, and has no friends or family.

I appreciate that Merrill is attracted to women. I like having the choice. This makes me happy, no doubt about it.

At the same time, I'd be sad if she was simply written as a straight woman and had her gender toggle removed.

People have said that sexual orientation is not part of a character. That's simply not true. Leliana's romantic relationship with Marjolaine was important to who she was. She didn't just look up to Marjolaine, she loved her. I would be horrified if Sheryl said, "If you play a female Warden, they were lovers, but if you play a male one, they were just friends."

Morrigan was defined by her sexual orientation. When Leliana looks at her, she becomes uncomfortable, yet she aggressively seeks out Sten. It's very obvious that she uses her attractiveness to seduce and use men. It's part of her role as a femme fatale. Yes, it would work for a bisexual character, but if she had to be a lesbian when I played femWarden, I would miss part of the character.

[foam]

They are how the Maker made them.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I have no problem with all the characters being bi. I have no problem with the characters being straight, bisexual, or gay if that's how the writers see them. I have no problem with BioWare writing a game with no romances or only straight romances.

Oh, obviously, that's not what I wish for, but I don't believe BioWare is obliged to give me a same-sex romance in every game.

I would rather not see a character be straight in one playthrough and gay in another, however.

Understandable. I don't necessarily agree, but I understand nevertheless.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Remember that when I argued that the ME 2 style of character outfits was a good thing, I said it was because I liked visually distinctive companions that dressed as they would dress. Jack's outfit in ME 2 may not have been realistic in a vacuum, but it was an excellent expression of the character.

Some people weren't happy that Jack talks about sleeping with a couple, suggesting she's bisexual, but isn't interested in FemShep. Yes, well, you don't have to be bisexual to sleep with a member of your own sex. Especially when it comes to someone who is young, mentally unstable, and has no friends or family.

Only saying anything here because I feel weird leaving parts of your post out completely or responding to a section that includes a bunch of stuff irrelevant to what I have to say. So, meh. ME2 meh. Meh all around.

Maria Caliban wrote...

I appreciate that Merrill is attracted to women. I like having the choice. This makes me happy, no doubt about it.

At the same time, I'd be sad if she was simply written as a straight woman and had her gender toggle removed.

I don't believe that's what's been done. Rather, I think Merrill's been written as a woman, with an appropriate template applied on top of that, one way or the other. I think whatever depth may be lost from having the plot not care what gender the PC is can be made up for in other ways, and I trust the writers to handle it appropriately.

Maria Caliban wrote...

People have said that sexual orientation is not part of a character. That's simply not true. Leliana's romantic relationship with Marjolaine was important to who she was. She didn't just look up to Marjolaine, she loved her. I would be horrified if Sheryl said, "If you play a female Warden, they were lovers, but if you play a male one, they were just friends."

Sexual orientation is a part of a character, but not universally. Leliana's relationship with Marjolaine is vital to who she is. *spoiler* Anders's relationship with Karl is important as well. Merrill doesn't need to have that relationship with Marethari (for example). There's leeway when it comes to characters whose stories and pasts don't feature sexuality as a major component. Merrill's orientation is irrelevant to what we know of her so far, and it will likely stay that way. Sexuality can be important to a character, but that needn't be so. Again, I trust the writers to make it work.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Morrigan was defined by her sexual orientation. When Leliana looks at her, she becomes uncomfortable, yet she aggressively seeks out Sten. It's very obvious that she uses her attractiveness to seduce and use men. It's part of her role as a femme fatale. Yes, it would work for a bisexual character, but if she had to be a lesbian when I played femWarden, I would miss part of the character.

My response is similar to mine to what you said about Leliana. With Morrigan, her sexuality is important to her character. Her use (and abuse) of men, as she was taught by Flemeth, is important to who she is. A "subjective" approach to Morrigan's or Leliana's sexualities wouldn't have worked for all the reasons you've mentioned. But it CAN work for Merrill, for whom sexuality is likely relevant only insofar as her status as an LI.

I would say that same about Alistair. I think Alistair could very easily have been a bisexually-romanceable companion of subjective sexuality. He wasn't. But I think it could have worked, because it wasn't important to his personal story that he be straight, gay, or bi.

I agree with you as far as a "subjective" approach not working universally. Leliana was bisexual (or a lesbian who happens to fall in love with a male Warden, if you prefer). But (and I'm not sure if you're saying this isn't true), I really think that in some circumstances, it can work, and it can work well. The writers are very good, and they know that this isn't something they can just BS their way through. I also know that you know this better than I do.

In the end, it boils down to looking at a character and deciding if sex is important. If yes, run with it, like Isabela. If no, run the other way. It's okay, from a writing standpoint, to make Merrill's sexual orientation subjective, because Merrill's sexual orientation is not otherwise important.

[EDIT] For quote fail.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 06 mars 2011 - 10:02 .

[Sierra Crysis]

Sexuality has a huge impact on a character's personality but also in how they're recieved. You know, the biggest problem of this defense I see that, oh they're Hawke-sexual, is that these characters, if they're well fleshed out is that they're likely going to talk at some point about their past lovers; and you know what? I'm not exactly sure I'm ready to have Anders tell me about how he was stirring some stubble friction with some guy-mage in the mage tower. At the same time, what would a guyhawke player think about his gay Anders when he starts spouting off info about his femme flings.

Additionally, I'll be wholly upset if these lines we hear from the LI's are generic, reusable lines between genders. I'd rather have one well sculpted LI that treats me like a woman, even if he wasn't the most desirable sort, physically or mentally, than a dozen ones that spout out neuter compliments and lines that are suspiciously vague.

Finally, unless these characters are very reserved, the sexualized characters like Isabela and if Anders is like how he was in Awakening is, will no doubt offer compliments and or advances at times.. Like how Isabela does so akwardly in the demo. Where was the option to say... "Don't hold your breath.."? What also, can be said here is that, while Anders DOES flirt with Fem-warden, he doesn't with Guy-warden, which causes issues because now it looks like they changed his sexuality for fan-service, which isn't okay by any measure.

[Arppis]

Haha! Good one, "Hawke-sexual".

[Rawgrim]

so over a span of 10 years, the only people Hawke will be able to romance are bisexual people.

[TallBearNC]

After reading the official guide and playing the game for a few days... not ALL characters are "bi"

Varric is definately straight and NON romancable by the player
Sebastion (from the exlided prince add-on) is devoutly heterosexual
All other party members go "both ways"