556 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I think it makes sense to default to SoZ behavior, but allow various features to be tweaked either through a 2da or a gui menu option. The features would be possibly:
- allow rest on overland map
- allow rest in manmade areas
- allow rest in underground areas
- allow rest when no enemies around even in hostile areas
- risk of hostile encounter when resting
- minimum amount of time between resting
- length of time when resting

Maybe some others I'm not thinking of. For compatibility with Kaedrin's PrC you should also include his rest fixes for constitution and call his rest scripts.

Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

One other suggestion. If a person is playing in easy mode then remove all resting restrictions and reduce the risk of hostile encounters.

You should be able to do all of this in the module load and rest scripts, which could be in the campaign folder. Module builders could be told the names of the scripts to use and if they have unique needs they can just use module specific scripts with module specific names.

Regards

Regards

[kevL]

Chaos...

Also, how do people feel about about dungeons? What's a good length for a dungeon?

Love 'em. Dungeon-crawling. Dungeon-master. By the time I got to a dungeon in SoZ i was starving and my immersion went up a hundred-fold. But then after carefully buffing and going into tactical stance, zing its over .. personally I'd say aim for three levels of moderate size, but then increase or decrease based on the point of the particular module: so it could be one room if just a cave, or revel in dark dank glory (or not ...) if the hunt is on for a piece of artifact.

Kaldor...

- minimum amount of time between resting

I'm kinda stumped on this one. i mean, I've played both with and without minimum time limits and fully see the point of a minimum limit; but it becomes frustrating for technical reasons, usually when a buff casts off incorrectly, or say ya meet the Big Encounter right after resting (then ya gotta stand around and wait after). So, i'm in favor of no minimum rest limitation. keeps things flowing

Kaldor's mentioned a number of things and I'll rattle off some opinions:

- allow rest on overland map

yes. with minimal chance of Random Encounters

- allow rest in manmade areas

yes. (depends on the flavor of the town)

- allow rest in underground areas

yes, with moderate chance of Random Encounters. The problem otherwise is that when you're in deep, you can get screwed (badly) especially if encounters reset. Might be a good idea to force an Auto-save when entering tuff dungeons (sic).

- allow rest when no enemies around even in hostile areas

yes. See above ..

- risk of hostile encounter when resting

yes. See above ..

- length of time when resting

is there really a point to this? Conversely, are there any drawbacks? i'd say yes, perhaps a variable from 2 to 8 hours, if ya want to get fancy, using player-input (choice) that heals and refreshes spells accordingly - or if implementing full heal / refresh regardless, at least enough time to make the sun move around

[kevL]

Kaldor wrote...

allow various features to be tweaked either through a 2da or a gui menu option .... If a person is playing in easy mode then remove all resting restrictions and reduce the risk of hostile encounters.

2nd this Idea (of aiming for a degree of difficulty, then allowing it to be varied ( according to individual players' Taste ) eh?).

[manageri]

Unlimited resting is only "abuse" if the builder has intended for the player to not rest all the time. There's nothing wrong with balancing your encounters with resting between almost every single one of them in mind, it can just be a little annoying without a buffing rod (btw please make the mod compatible with those if possible).

I think that if you're not gonna make meaningful restrictions then the best thing is to just make resting completely free and tune the encounters up accordingly. Having to run out of the dungeon to the OM to rest (or any other location based restriction) is not meaningful, it does nothing to actually restrict how often you can rest, it just makes it more annoying for the player to do so.

[Arkalezth]

SoZ resting is decent. However, I've played Legacy of White Plume Mountain recently, and I never got attacked when resting in dungeons, even in dangerous places to rest.

Whatever system is chosen, please don't put a time limit between rests. I've always found that illogical, and annoying in a couple modules that did it.

I talked about resting in the other thread, but I don't think we need to discuss it much further. While not perfect, SoZ system is mostly fine. If someone feels like there should be more restrictions, well, don't type R.

Dungeons length: IMO, not very long, 2 or 3 areas (with a few exceptions maybe). Also, not as the typical SoZ dungeon, a small area with 3 gnolls, a chest, and nothing else.

[The Fred]

Wandering monsters would be cool, but probably more work than they're worth given we'd have to coordinate the system across all modules. The only thing might be if you can meet them on the OM, and just ban resting in dungeons (perhaps allow "safe" resting zones). Personally I don't mind whether it's allowed or not, but it makes a difference to balancing, and I think we should stay relatively consistant throughout.

One thing that might be worth noting. Shallina mentioned she was going to have a Plane of Shadow quest or something. It might be worth asking her if she's going to use portals which open only at night (I think that's what MotB had) because if so, it might be prudent to give players the option to wait until dusk, a la MotB's GUI or my own resting GUI (shameless plug), though it might need some integrating. Either way I think we should just pick something and run with it.

Modifié par The Fred, 06 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Resting inside of dungeons is meaningful. If you can't, It shows you you are in a dangerous place and the deeper you go the harder it is to get out. That's the whole reason dungeons are more dangerous. Also makes an endurance dungeon possible and rewards people who can conserve. Doesn't really warrant discussion though since the modders can set when they think rest can happen (checkpoints).

Blanketing a yes or no policy doesn't really allow for much variety. Some dungeons may not have any reason you can't rest (is it an abandoned tower of tricks & traps or a very sparse tunnel network where monsters dont leave their camps) etc.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 06 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[Gilradthegreat]

I agree that it really depends on how the areas are designed and balanced.

If you allow any resting at all in dungeons, balance it as though you're assuming the player will always be fully rested between encounters.

If you don't want to assume players are always resting, then place some harsher restrictions other than "go somewhere safe":
Respawning enemies that don't give XP
"you can't go back" moments where there are no resting points
Or, though it might be difficult to coordinate, "time limits" on quests/dungeons (based on game-hours, not real life hours)

[manageri]

The Fred wrote...

Wandering monsters would be cool, but probably more work than they're worth given we'd have to coordinate the system across all modules. The only thing might be if you can meet them on the OM, and just ban resting in dungeons (perhaps allow "safe" resting zones). Personally I don't mind whether it's allowed or not, but it makes a difference to balancing, and I think we should stay relatively consistant throughout.

I'm not really sure whether wandering monsters are a functional restriction. If they give you XP and/or loot then they go from being a danger to a bonus. The only way they can actually penalize the party is if they're tough enough to make you use consumables to survive, but then it's no longer clear whether they promote less or more resting because I'm much more likely to survive and to not spend a ton of potions if I still have some spells left, so tough wandering monsters might actually make resting after every fight the best strategy (and if they aren't tough then they're pointless as far as balancing is concerned).

[kamal_]

Once again, CW should just make an executive decision and tell everyone what it is.

[NWN DM]

I'd love to contribute some interiors to this project.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

Posted this on the Citadel Forums but figured I plug my request here as well for those of you who don't frequent the citidel.

I'm currently working on the custom intro stories for the opening. I was hopping these intros could take place in areas the PC will later visit. If anyone is working on any area that fits any of the descriptions listed below, or if anyone is willing to work on one of these areas, please let me know. The idea is that each of these areas will be used for an intro story, but will also be areas the PC will visit again on the Overland map during the mid-game.

Will need:
-A wood elf camp in Satyrwood (for the Forest Elf opening)
-An Emerald Enclave Encampment (for druid of the Emerald Enclave opening)
-A wizard's tower
-The Dwarven city Ironfang (very important is anyone working on this?)
-An estate in Alaghon (for the human Nobel intro story)
-A village in the Turmish plains (for Nomad opening story)(The Town of Centaur Bridge perhaps)
-A small farm village (for outcast opening)(or really any village, maybe even Centaur Bridge again)
-Open area in the Turmish Plains (for Nomad opening story)

Modifié par Shaun the Crazy One, 08 mars 2011 - 02:03 .

[The Fred]

manageri wrote...
I'm not really sure whether wandering monsters are a functional restriction. If they give you XP and/or loot then they go from being a danger to a bonus.

If you've already used up your spells and are injured, even relatively easy wandering monsters can quickly grind you down. Anyway, I'm not sure we should use them, in which case it wouldn't really matter.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

If there are no rest limitations then wandering monsters make no sense, they are just an easy bonus. If there are rest restrictions then wandering monsters make a lot of sense because it forces you to conserve resources, battles become trickier, and you may need to decide to alter your plans because your mages only have "light" left and you have no more potions of healing. I think it is a good idea to have some game mechanics that force you to periodically adjust your plans.

If you are not going to have rest restrictions then I suggest you make sure every module that doesn't need a specialized rest script uses the campaign script. That way the resting script can be overridden if desired. But I think it makes the most sense to have the default be SoZ behavior regarding these game mechanics, but use a 2da to allow people to customize as they wish. I don't know how the wandering monster systems worked for any of NWN or NWN2, which is why I used my own tied into the resting script.

An executive decision should be made. Consensus isn't going to happen.

Regards

Modifié par Kaldor Silverwand, 08 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[MokahTGS]

Just an FYI, my dungeons are rather long compared to SoZ. The Ruined Mansion for example is several layers deep, and then each layer is either large or has several sub-layers.

[dunniteowl]

I think we ought to use Kaldor's suggestion of going stock SoZ resting in the Campaign Scripts and if there are compelling (according to the module area builder) reasons to change those, they can be implemented in a module level script -- end of issue.

As a Community Project, the idea is to sort of showcase a Pool of Talent and creativity within a larger framework. That framework does require some command level decision making that, once everything (that isn't redundant) is heard, the Executive Director chooses and, if necessary, backs it up with reasoning. As egalitarian an idea this is, there is still a requirement for some Directorial Oversight.

So, as an advisor to the Director, my recommendation is to follow Kaldor's suggestion in regards to resting.

Dungeon Areas: I like the whole switch up to module area dungeons. If someone has an adventure idea that isn't too epic, then I say go for it. If they have a cave with a bear in it and the old bones of an adventurer and some item/gear as loot, go for it. The whole idea is that we don't want it to be a carbon copy of the SoZ encounter and dungeon setup, even though we will be using elements and tools that created that.

I have ideas for campaign length adventures. Not for this project, too big. I also have tons of ideas for small to mid sized encounters that might give anywhere from 200 total XP (if that in some cases) to upwards of 3-4K XP. These are the Goldilocks ideas for this module. Anything from a simple little area encounter with a small prize or story element, to one and two area dungeons, that provide up to half a level (at lower levels) of adventuring experience, to larger areas where a character (or party) might be expected to rise one or two levels from start to finish are all grist for this project.

In the final run, we will simply have to play out the areas and integrate them into that framework and make any necessary adjustments from there. Right now, I think we have enough general information so that all the current participants (and we can always use more people if there are any of you out there interested in participating still) can get started and get building.

I think the majority of campaign wide resources are listed and set up, so I think as long as you can make an area that fits within that rather broad description of area size, then you should be good to go. We hope you get creative, get wild, get out of the ordinary and just remember to keep it as Turmish as you can (which is where Hellfire and I come in primarily.)

The principal plot is, I think, an excellent one and allows for a lot of room to do other things that can be relatively easily tied into the main campaign. So go ahead, get started and make a small story for the module project. This is going to be a fun filled and interesting creation.

dunniteowl

[Shaun the Crazy One]

I agree with DNO on the resting issue.  It's best to keep things as consistent as possible.  Make it so resting is only allowed on the OM (just like SoZ).  If an areas designer feels they really need to allow resting at a certain point in their dungeon they should create a campfire placeable the PC can interact with that give the option to rest.  Agein I stress the importance of consistancy.  If you just uncheck the "no resting allowed" box on your area, the player won't see that, and may not relise resting is allowed and get fusterated on a certain dungoun because they don't relize they can rest before a tough battle.  If we establish the abandones camp fire as a universal "rest in dungoun" placeable, then they player will be able to imediately recognize rest points.

Also I think it whould be a good idea if the dungoun ajusted itself a-bit when the PC rested.  Perhaps the necromancer in the next room raised some extra zombies while the PCs were resting, some slight changes in dialoge, "I know I heard you lot come in earlier and I have prepared for you", or perhaps there is just chance the PCs get attacked while resting.  That part is up to the area's designer though.

My point is we should try to set standards, and make things as consistant as possible.  It makes the game more enjoyable for the payer and help the different areas transition smoothly into one another.

[Eguintir Eligard]

ya

[nicethugbert]

www.youtube.com/watch

[Dorateen]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

  If an areas designer feels they really need to allow resting at a certain point in their dungeon they should create a campfire placeable the PC can interact with that give the option to rest. 

Yes, this is what I am doing.

[dunniteowl]

NTB, the only reason I'm not deleting that totally irrelevant post is beacauase I LMFAO!

and that's it.

dno