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[kamal_]

nicethugbert wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

It would be interesting to see a matrix of bosses that scale with the PC. The PC could start his adventuring life against any boss he wishes, or randomly. As he eliminates bosses or their forces, the remaining bosses fill in the power void. So, the power structures in the story are not fixed, but dynamically dependent on the PC's choices on which order to target the bosses. The power of a boss' forces would wane as the PC hunts that boss down or thwarts the bosses ambushes/assaults. This waning power for the targeted boss would be a power increase for the remaining bosses or their forces. If the PC targets more than one boss at a time, it could get interesting.

It's been done outside of nwn2. I played an indie game that did it. It requires mucho planning and is not feasible in the timeframe the community project is doing. Also, it's less fun than it sounds, as the bosses lose their uniqueness. Finally, players generally don't kite different bosses' groups, but work their way through them one at a time.

Why would the bosses lose their uniqueness?  You can level up any monster uniquely.  There are lots of games where the opponets scale to the PC.

It's not that they all gain the same resistances or stats, it's that the player gets the feeling they are not having any effect on the world. If you go kill the goblin king that was terrorizing the land, and the orc king pops right up to fill the void (and a new king pops up somewhere in the lands to replace the dead goblin king and take over for the orc king you'[re going to now go kill), the players have had no real effect. Each boss/tribe whatever becomes utterly replaceable, not unique. It's near the "opponents scaling to pc" problem. The player has no sense of accomplishment, somewhing already discussed in another thread.

Here's the game I played that does it.
rampantgames.com/depthsperil

Modifié par kamal_, 08 septembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[nicethugbert]

But, all games are about replacing, i.e. destroying, the opponent. It's how progress is typically measured.

To highlight progress, you could have allies, or simply a people you are trying to save, give you status reports. How you dismantle the enemies affects their fortunes.

Furthermore, the enemies could be fighting each other. So, dismantling them becomes tricky because you don't want to remove enemies in a way that frees the remaining enemies to devote more resources to crushing your allies.

You can have factions among your allies trying to take advantage of changing situations. It doesn't have to be bloody. Just an extra dimension for the player to care about.

Lots of room for stealth, scouting, and trickery in that scenario.

The sphere of concern can grow with level from local to world wide. At first level, the fate of a family member of friend could be at stake, possibly not obvious. In the end, the dominion of your deity, alignment, philosophy, or other preferred association could be affected.

It may be complicated and a lot of work, depending on the level of detail and size of scope you wish, but, the best is often not the easiest, especially in a crowded field of competitors.

[The Fred]

kamal_ wrote...
It's not that they all gain the same resistances or stats, it's that the player gets the feeling they are not having any effect on the world. If you go kill the goblin king that was terrorizing the land, and the orc king pops right up to fill the void (and a new king pops up somewhere in the lands to replace the dead goblin king and take over for the orc king you'[re going to now go kill), the players have had no real effect.

I would say that's more true to life, to be honest. Once the goblin king is out of the picture, the struggling orc band suddenly finds it can raid travellers with ease. It mops up the rest of the goblins, steals their treasure, and instates itself as the new local power. NPCs should start blaming the PC for accomplishing nothing, too. Not only do they now feel that the game is going nowhere, the game should tell them that they're going nowhere.

The next time the player helps overthrow a regime and instate a new government, have the guy they placed on the throne be worse than the guy they got rid off. Then we'll see how willing they are to help next time...

[kamal_]

nicethugbert wrote...

But, all games are about replacing, i.e. destroying, the opponent. It's how progress is typically measured.

To highlight progress, you could have allies, or simply a people you are trying to save, give you status reports. How you dismantle the enemies affects their fortunes.

Not gonna happen in the community projects timeline. And not gonna happen on any kind of scale you'd like without a professional team (because of the amount of time needed). And suprisingly not so fun in actual games. You can try the demo from the game I linked. It's full featured, you're just limited to level 7 (the full game is only $20). It's a diablo style, but it implements all that stuff you talk about to various extents. It's got monste factions that grow in power if you ignore them (they even swivel and invade if you ignore them for long enough), and rival adventurers that can steal quests from you, you can even fight them. It does parties as well, you can have 5-6 members, though only 2 in the field at a time, and they don't gain xp unless theyre out fighting.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Kamal is right and this has been a valuable waste of time. Start talking about Tarrasques eating babies and the crib again.

[M. Rieder]

A lot of this talk sounds like basic pre-planning sort of stuff. I was under the impression that at least some of the builders were in the process of building. If builders are already building, there is not much that can realistically be changed at this stage of the game.

[The Fred]

Yeah, a lot of this is probably not relevant to the Project. We are, however, wont to ramble and prone to off-topic discussion.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Way to be helpful after your input is no longer of relevance GUYS

[The Fred]

Relevance is subjective.

[nicethugbert]

Irrelevance is subjective!

[MokahTGS]

I have posted in the CPTT forum with a link to a master placeable.2da that covers everything that the community has done. the package also includes a set of blueprints. This is not models...just 2da and blueprints.

It will be released to the public soon by Kanbyen. Thank him for all the work.

[Eguintir Eligard]

so what does this mean for us.... its a master 2da but with no models? Do i have to go download all the models now? When i do I have to seperate them from their own 2das right?

[kamal_]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

so what does this mean for us.... its a master 2da but with no models? Do i have to go download all the models now? When i do I have to seperate them from their own 2das right?

Same advantage as the ADL, which does the same thing, seperate 2das from content. Since it was extensively discussed, here's the link.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/172/index/5059412/4

[Eguintir Eligard]

nothing I like better than people throwing around acronyms like I'm supposed to just know what they mean with no supporting facts whatsoever.

[kamal_]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

nothing I like better than people throwing around acronyms like I'm supposed to just know what they mean with no supporting facts whatsoever.

Good thing the term was irrelevant to the discussion and I included an explanation of the advtanges and a link to where the advantages are discueed then. <_<

[M. Rieder]

ADL - activities of daily living.

[Eguintir Eligard]

ADL - A dum lazypersonwhocanttypewordsbecausethatstooharddurrrrr

anyway not sure how this effect me or is relevant to the project so I have nothing changing. The wedding module should be available for testation soon, and I think we'll definitely need some feed back on the pacing and challenge level.

[M. Rieder]

ADL - A Dolphin Lobotomy

Wedding module, eh? Sounds good. PJ and I are finishing up with our testing. I'm hoping this thing does end up coming together. I think it has a lot of potential with all the talented modders we have on it.

[nicethugbert]

Anthropomorphic Diatomaceous Linguini

Will the master placeable.2da work with Kaedrin's class Pack?

[The Fred]

ADL is a very common TLA. Everyone should know it TBH.

[M. Rieder]

nicethugbert wrote...

Anthropomorphic Diatomaceous Linguini

Will the master placeable.2da work with Kaedrin's class Pack?

I certainly hope so.  Once you go with Kaedrin, it's hard to play without it.

[Shaughn78]

Changing the placeable.2da will have no effect on kaedrin's content. We are currently using a modified placeable.2da for this campaign.

As long as the modified lines are the same then it shouldn't be an issue. However, if these two 2da are not the same then the project can not use the new one. We have a working 2da that includes a lot of community content already. It is too much to ask the builders to go back and modify their work to use the universal 2da if there are conflicts.

[nicethugbert]

Abominable Daisy Larva

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why is everyone so obsessed with stupid kaedrin's? I used all the add ons in Risen Hero and the only part I liked was the ability to preset a melee and ranged weapon combo and I was told thats not even kaedrin's its Tony K AI.

The next email I get complaining about Kaedrin's pack being used in Islander against A)ll my (D)amn (L)obby instructions I am going to A)dd (D)eath at (L)oad-up for any players against which such use is detected.

[M. Rieder]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why is everyone so obsessed with stupid kaedrin's? I used all the add ons in Risen Hero and the only part I liked was the ability to preset a melee and ranged weapon combo and I was told thats not even kaedrin's its Tony K AI.

The next email I get complaining about Kaedrin's pack being used in Islander against A)ll my (D)amn (L)obby instructions I am going to A)dd (D)eath at (L)oad-up for any players against which such use is detected.

I like Kaedrin's because it has the Deep Imaskari race, which is a fun alternative to my standard sun elf when playing a wizard.  I also like the additiontal feats that kaedrin has for wizards and melee classes.  The prestige class Ice Mage is really fun and the new spells make the game great too.  There are lots of other classes and prestige classes that I haven't tried that also look pretty neat. 

Before I tried it, I was pretty skeptical too, but I'm sold.