556 réponses à ce sujet

[Eguintir Eligard]

You guys seem adverse to putting much thought into a rest system. It is
possible to rationalize differences in rest restrictions if you do so
systematically. If the area has patrols then you can interrupt rest,
instead of just outright prohibiting it. You can disrupt the patrols to
gain a window of rest opportunity. You can use skills or class to
factor into getting caught resting, or being tracked by patrols.
Survival skill can mitigate the need to bring camping equipment. Etc.

Search skill can be used to find an old abandoned tunnel to rest in.  Hide or survival can be used to camoflage it.

Allowing
everyone to follow their own inclinations can be as unsatisfying as the
Dev supplied rest systems. I'm not such a fan of the Dev supplied or
HCR rest systems because they do not take into account class or skill
when it appears reasonable to me to take those factors into account in a
rest system.

Do we ? Could be we have more interesting things to spend our time on. Really, this thing comes out in summer and were going to do a few months on the resting system alone, going for above and beyond any resting system in the OC or other campaigns?

[The Fred]

It's not so much that the resting system needs to be beyond anyone else's, as cool as that would be, but rather that we need something which we agree on, which is final, which people aren't going to start complaining about later on because it stinks, which we can build around. I mean, resting restrictions can make a bigger difference to balance than the difference between a few +1 weapons and +2 weapons or a couple of thousand gold here and there.

[MokahTGS]

I find this rather silly to discuss something so trivial...I really thought the resting had been settled to just allow the mod makers to do what they want. I'm allowing players to rest in the inn and possibly in safe zones when they are deep underground...other than that you can't take a nap in the dragons den.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I tried saying that several times. Maybe you two will have better luck.

[nicethugbert]

The dragon's den is the perfect place to rest, once the dragon is dead.

[The Fred]

Resting is indeed hardly trivial. I've already said how much of a bigger difference I feel it makes to balance than basically anything else. Mokah, I very much agree with your ideas on resting and really, it should fall down to common sense, but I'd much rather have some basic outline put out so that everyone knows where they stand. If it's so trivial, why can't we just agree on a system and stick with it? That system can be "builders may add exceptions to this rule where the feel necessary", but there's a difference between occasional exceptions and someone just prefering a whole different resting system and implementing it. Seriously, I don't care that much, but I'd much rather be told what to build and then know it's not going to get changed.

They say too many cooks spoil the broth - all I'm asking for is that we pick a recipe and run with it, we can make stew and dumplings this time and roast dinner another day, but please let's not make roast dumplings with too-salty carrotty potato stew gravy just because one person was making one bit and another the other.

[Arkalezth]

Agreed with others, I'm surprised people are still discussing about resting. It's been a month already, I thought a decission would have been made at this point.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Fred, if there is some kind of way to inject the words "It's already been settled" into your mind, please let us know. This is becoming an embarassment now.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 19 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[WyrinDnjargo]

People choose how resting is handled in their mod, then if its bad we know who to blame. I can see an arguemtn for consistentcy in approach, but I think htat's minor and somethign beta testing can thrash out
Gonna be incommunicado in Orlando for next 2 weeks

[WyrinDnjargo]

d

[Shaun the Crazy One]

Chaos Wielder wrote...

I said some time ago that we're going to be using the SOZ system; if modders want an inn or other 'custom' resting locations, they are fine to do that. However, I would say the system is going to be 99% the SOZ system.

I think that's the way to go, for really long dungeons campfire placeables, rest triggers, or similar can be used but I would recommend avoiding it, if possible.

The SoZ system allows for resting in Inns or on the OM, or in dungoun if you use a stone of alarm.  I would prefer it if we replaced "Stones of Alarm", with "Stones of Spell Recall" the idea being that instead of allowing the party to rest in dungeons it let's all the spell casters regain their spell, healing in dungeons must be done with potions or your newly regained spells.  Really not a big deal though.

Arkalezth wrote...

Agreed with others, I'm surprised people are still discussing about resting. It's been a month already, I thought a decission would have been made at this point.

We are actualy discussing important thing like plot and area on the Neverwinter Citadel boards, although I know not everyone is on there.

Modifié par Shaun the Crazy One, 19 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[Shaun the Crazy One]

I'd like to make one last point about the balance issue. We're making an SoZ type mod. At any point in SoZ was the game ever honestly difficult? Like the SoZ devs we only have a general idea of what order the players will visit each area in, that's the thing about having an open world OM. So don't go thinking you can fine tune difficulty levels (I'm looking at you EE). The SoZ philosophy was better too easy than too hard, and while I'm not sure that's the best way to go consider that you won't know exactly what level the PCs will be when they get to you area.

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Fred, if there is some kind of way to inject the words "It's already been settled" into your mind, please let us know. This is becoming an embarassment now.

Perhaps actually telling me what that settlement was might have helped - "something mostly a bit like the SoZ system maybe with a few tweaks" is wooly enough and I don't even know exactly what the SoZ system is. What's "embatrassing" is that, half-way through a discussion about resting, someone decides to cut it off by claiming that treasure balance is a bigger issue and so resting doesn't matter.

I'm not trying to take the system back to the drawing board or have a massive arguement about it - in fact, most of what I've been arguing about is actually (the much more general fact) that resting is important, not which resting system we should or shouldn't have.

In fact, two pages ago, I said:

OK so no resting, except where specified by individual builders? That sounds fine to me.

Instead of a confirmation (or contradiction), I got more discussion, suggesting thing weren't settled, then certain other people saying "this discussion is silly, it's obvious what the decision has been".

My understanding was that it's a no-resting-in-dungeons policy with exceptions - hence, I'd like to discuss how those exceptions are implemented. That's a consistency issue, not a resting one, but people don't seem to want to talk about it (and yet are happy to keep argue against talking about it over here even when I tried to move the discussion away so as not to let it be an "embarrassment").

Sheesh, I really have no desire to thrash about the resting issue any more, I just have no love of this almost cloak-and-dagger reluctance to talk about it as if actually detailing the resting system to the builders so they could actually build something based around it might be a bad thing.

[The Fred]

Ninja'd (double, in fact) by Shaun.

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...
I think that's the way to go, for really long dungeons campfire placeables, rest triggers, or similar
can be used but I would recommend avoiding it, if possible.

The SoZ system allows for resting in Inns or on the OM, or in dungoun if you use a stone of alarm.  I would prefer it if we replaced "Stones of Alarm", with "Stones of Spell Recall" the idea being that instead of allowing the party to rest in dungeons it let's all the spell casters regain their spell, healing in dungeons must be done with potions or your newly regained spells.  Really not a big deal though.

Stones of Alarm are single-use, right? Because, to my mind at least, the game would be a lot more strategic if there were limited-use stones and maybe healing wells or the like which could rest a party. That way, they'd still have things to keep them going through a dungeon, but have to think about them carefully. A dungeon might be too hard to complete in a single innings, even for a high-level party, but if they go and find a (rare) Stone, they can stop half-way through and rest (or get healed, whatever). These things would be easy-to-distribute blueprints, too, making life easy for everyone.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

The Fred wrote...
Stones of Alarm are single-use, right? Because, to my mind at least, the game would be a lot more strategic if there were limited-use stones and maybe healing wells or the like which could rest a party. That way, they'd still have things to keep them going through a dungeon, but have to think about them carefully. A dungeon might be too hard to complete in a single innings, even for a high-level party, but if they go and find a (rare) Stone, they can stop half-way through and rest (or get healed, whatever). These things would be easy-to-distribute blueprints, too, making life easy for everyone.

Stones of Alarm are single use, and SoZ did have a limited quanitity of them avalible in various shops (given that limited quanitity was still alot more you whould ever need in the game).  I suggested Stones of Spell Recall instead because:
a. resting in a dungoun and having nothing change is very unrealistic, and breaks immersion and
b. Stones of Alarm where very much overpowered in SoZ
I'd rather avoid the use of resting placable/triggers if possible, but the thing about Stones of Alarm/Stones of Spell Recall is that you can't assume a player will use them at the right time esspecialy if there is very limited quanitity avalible, or they might forget they have them or try stockpiling them and find the game fustratingly difficult because they arn't using this item the designer thought they whould (that's one of the advantages of the campfire placeables)

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,

A rest system (to me) is more about managing time and other gaming elements than anything else. If time is not an issue, or one is happy to allow the replenishment of spells wherever a "safe spot" is located, then the default SoZ will suffice.

However, to add a dimension of pace, or a risk of being caught without spells due to not being able to recover them again, or simply not being able to rest due to a condition like hunger all add dimensions to the game in my opinion.

A carefully crafted rest system can make it feel like there is a DM present saying something along the lines of "You have only recovered spells recently, therefore, you will have to continue the adventure for a while longer before you can rest again ... and deal with whatever comes along accordingly."

This added "difficulty" may not appeal to some players (who like to regain spells at the push of a button), but may appeal to those who like to manage their resources more carefully. Of course, the same resting restrictions must also have an impact on non-spellcasters, such as only recovering small amount of HPs with each rest, rather than recovering them all.

Lance.

[The Fred]

I'd rather avoid such placeables too, but as long as they aren't overused they could allow for a situational equivalent of a stone of alarm. Then, there could be a couple of stones (whatever they're called) strewn around the game so that players have a little lee-way in where and when they "rest". I think both of these ideas have more or less been CW-approved, but what I'd like to do is make standard blueprints for stones and placeables so that people can use the same ones (or I guess use a set resref, then put the blueprints in the campaign and they should override everything), even if they use something custom where appropriate.

[manageri]

Shaun the Crazy One wrote...

I'd like to make one last point about the balance issue. We're making an SoZ type mod. At any point in SoZ was the game ever honestly difficult? Like the SoZ devs we only have a general idea of what order the players will visit each area in, that's the thing about having an open world OM. So don't go thinking you can fine tune difficulty levels (I'm looking at you EE). The SoZ philosophy was better too easy than too hard, and while I'm not sure that's the best way to go consider that you won't know exactly what level the PCs will be when they get to you area.

Was anything Obsidian made ever difficult? Just because there has to be some freedom in this kinda mod doesn't mean you need to make everything absurdly easy like SoZ. Yes you're supposed to give the player some freedom, that doesn't mean you need to make pretty much everything on the map doable almost from the start (which is exactly how SoZ worked). It's perfectly acceptable for the level 4 party to have almost zero chance of success in that level 8 dungeon (otherwise it's not a friggin level 8 dungeon).

[Eguintir Eligard]

As a second to this, you can look at me all you want Shaun, I am not going to give myself a pre excuse that I cant balance an area and then mail in the effort. The player can go to areas whenever they want. They can do a module at a level that makes it easier. Thats not my problem or a bad thing for sandbox design. It's part of the fun.

Considering there is likely less areas than levels... there's a very good chance the player will be doing areas exactly at the level they are designed for since grinding the OM is obviously going to get old if you already had to gain a level that way. If I make an area too hard, they can retreat, and OM. If I make it too easy, it becomes a joke. I'll go with making it exactly as its supposed to be, and there always the option of returning if you cant meet the EL.

[The Fred]

manageri wrote...
Was anything Obsidian made ever difficult? Just because there has to be some freedom in this kinda mod doesn't mean you need to make everything absurdly easy like SoZ.

Shaun, correct me if I'm wrong, but guys I think this was kind of his point. SoZ wasn't difficult because official campaigns are generally made easy, because they have to be playable by everyone who plays the game, not just D&D experts. The rules are daunting enough without killing new players right away, so AFAIK they've made a conscious decision to keep everything easy. That doesn't mean we have to.

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
I'll go with making it exactly as its supposed to be, and there always the option of returning if you cant meet the EL.

EE, I think the point is that there is no difficulty a campaign is "supposed" to be, because for that to exist you have to have an assumed path through the module. Now, that's fine, but in an open game like this, there'll be a lot more deviation and variation in paths through than whatever we decide is the "proper" way. For example, the intended path will probably be to visit most if not all of the dungeons, in the level order they're laid out in on the Citadel boards, obviously, but what's the intended number of OM encounters fought, and so forth? All this means is that it's almost impossible to balance a dungeon exactly right for all possible playthroughs. However, I don't think this really makes any difference. You can just make the dungeon how you want and so long as it more-or-less hits the mark in playtesting then everything's fine. I think we all just have to accept that "the mark" might move around a little bit.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I think what you are seeing happen here, is an opportunity to get started before others, and set a bit of a tone. Within reason, I for one am more or less going to mimic the standard set out by any modules before me, to maximize cohesion (easier for me to build it that way the first time than people already done to do it twice).

I'm taking cues on the general flavor text used, amount of examinable objects in a room and so on, and this can fall under any category. I started long ago but realistically with graduation in the next 5 weeks and a job to find, I can honestly say I don't expect much from me until may begins.

[manageri]

The Fred wrote...

EE, I think the point is that there is no difficulty a campaign is "supposed" to be, because for that to exist you have to have an assumed path through the module. Now, that's fine, but in an open game like this, there'll be a lot more deviation and variation in paths through than whatever we decide is the "proper" way.

Yeah of course there's some deviation but that doesn't mean you need to balance the level 15 dungeon to be doable by the level 4 party just because they can access it. Not every possible path needs to (or should) be supported. Now you're right that the builder decides how hard things should be, and therefore what the appropriate level is, but I think it's kinda ridicilous to claim your module is for let's say level 20 if people can beat it with level 5 chars.

[The Fred]

Manageri, that's exactly what I'm saying - you can pitch your module at, say, L8 characters, but have it so it's only consistently doable with L9s. Then, maybe some plucky player gets there with a party of L7s and beats it early. So what? The point I'm making is that you *can't* entirely plan for this, so you have to accept that now, the L7 dungeon those players were "meant" to visit first will probably be a bit easy for them (since they're probably L8 now, and anyway have more gear). We're never going to get balance bang on, so let's just have a good guess, playtest, and deal with it.