556 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaun the Crazy One]

manageri wrote...
Yeah of course there's some deviation but that doesn't mean you need to balance the level 15 dungeon to be doable by the level 4 party just because they can access it. Not every possible path needs to (or should) be supported. Now you're right that the builder decides how hard things should be, and therefore what the appropriate level is, but I think it's kinda ridicilous to claim your module is for let's say level 20 if people can beat it with level 5 chars.

I was actually think more along the lines of having a minimum skill check to get into some of the higher level dungeons, for example a dungeon could be locked and require a party member to have 16 ranks in open lock to enter.  Or by associating that dungeon with a certain quest.  Alot of devs are making areas with low level entry section that the player will have to return to later.  This I think is a very good way to approach it.  I also think we should set up some sort of system, where the further a location is from Algahon the harder it is.

Point is we don't want to make a frustrating game-play mechanic where players have to keep entering dungeons and "testing the waters" to see rather or not they can handle it or not.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Thats another thing that was already settled in the previous thread, Wyrin and Chaos I believe said the areas will simply be given encounter levels, and there was a general chorus of agreement. I recommend people check the old thread there is a lot of rehash going on here.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 20 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[manageri]

Yeah, just have the dungeon's level (range) visible to the player when you click the dungeon like in LoWPM, and preferably on the map pins and journal entries too.

[The Fred]

I know that having a recommended level stamped on the dungeons was suggested, don't remember whether it was agreed on or not, but what I do remember was that there is the intention to place dungeons roughly on a difficulty-distance gradient so that players have to go further and via the easier areas to reach the harder ones. I know I at least am using the "go-and-come-back" approach to ensure the players don't reach the boss fight too early, but I shouldn't think this is necessary for most people.

[Dorateen]

For NTB... I'm including a campfire ring near the beginning of Places Deep, however, it will not be lit and thus unavailable for resting. If the party has a Ranger, Barbarian, or someone with sufficient Survival rank, they will then be able to get the fire started and the Party may rest.

Otherwise, there will be a bit of spelunking before they find an active campfire.

Harumph!

[Eguintir Eligard]

Really, a wizard with a fire cantrip cant find a "way" to light the fire? Or perhaps... anyone with a fire dmg weapon?

This is why I dont do the "rest if you have this skill stuff". Far too many holes in it. Plus missing an entire rest is hugely imbalancing just because you dont have a skill. Unless the area is easy enough you dont really need the rest. Then it begs the question why is it there.


As someone who rarely questions game logic/rules (Im not that picky really) I immediately question why I need survival to do something that is a parlor trick for any caster...

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 21 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[Dorateen]

Hehe... as if a wizard would waste even a cantrip to light a mundane campfire!
Sorry, EE, Dungeons&Dragons is forever about abstraction trumping realism. Or else we might as well throw out hit points and negative armor  classes and THAC0... wait. Well, we still have hitpoints.
Old Skool, and proud of it. Let's all just have fun!
Harumph!

[Eguintir Eligard]

Hey its your call, but you are telling me the wizard will freeze his butt off cuz he wont light a fire? I'm a wizard and I'm as snobby as they come but I'll at least find myself a way to keep warm. Is the survival skill used to explain how they can sleep with one eye open? Okay now we're talking

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 21 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Plus missing an entire rest is hugely imbalancing just because you dont have a skill.

This is actually the problem I have with it. Giving someone a bonus based off a skill or somesuch is OK if the bonuses are small and/or spread out amongst various skills but a whole rest for effectively a single point of Survival is imbalancing.
There's no reason casters couldn't have the option to light fires too, though - although blowing up the campfire might not be productive. It's hard to say whether any given caster would actually have the ability to light a fire, that's all (it's feasible that certain casters might not).
Otherwise, I'm all for the idea.

[M. Rieder]

Dorateen wrote...

Hehe... as if a wizard would waste even a cantrip to light a mundane campfire!
Sorry, EE, Dungeons&Dragons is forever about abstraction trumping realism. Or else we might as well throw out hit points and negative armor  classes and THAC0... wait. Well, we still have hitpoints.
Old Skool, and proud of it. Let's all just have fun!
Harumph!

THACO...nice.

[M. Rieder]

If there are enough items for a non-resting party to continue, then it won't be too bad. If someone does have the ability to light the fire, then they preserve their potions for another day. I am sure that a developer will be able to right the balance and make it possible for a player to succeed.

[Eguintir Eligard]

why complicate things for a gimmick though?

It's hard to say whether any given caster would actually have the ability to light a fire, that's all (it's feasible that certain casters might not).
Otherwise, I'm all for the idea.

which casters? every single casting class has flare as a cantrip.

[The Fred]

Flare needn't be able to light a fire. Clerics don't get Flare. Sorcerers and Bards don't all get Flare (at least, right away). Warlocks could maybe light a fire with Brimstone Blast, but also don't get flare (or, really, anything else). Luckily Evocation is never an opposition school, but from an RP perspective, an enchanter, diviner, conjurer, necromancer etc. needn't have any mastery of the elements at all. And so forth. Either, you start taking all these things into account, or you say pretty much any caster can muster enough magic to create a spark, which might be a little unsatisfying but works - however, most parties will have an arcane caster and almost all will have a caster of some type, so the whole point of having difficulty lighting the fire seems to vanish.

In HotU, they used the excuse that magical fire is too violent and unpredictable to light fires with, there one second and gone the next. This might make sense for the Fireball spell, but sounded like an excuse really (which is what it was, I guess). It would be easy to say that only certain spells can be used, but then it becomes a search through a list of spells which could change if mods are installed.

[Eguintir Eligard]

people are gonna do what they want. Not much you can do. Some are striving to create a cohesive project on the whole and sacrificing personal vision and others are doing what they want and submitting it. At the end of the day you will get more content that way if nothing else.

[The Fred]

Meh, it's a balance. I'm big on cohesion, but I was thinking about this last night and tbh, I'd rather people had freedom. Certain things, like convos, resting, a rough balance etc. need to be organised between people, but this is a community project, not just a module made by a group of people. It's very much a showcase of different peoples' works, and the players will know that. That's fine. As long as it doesn't feel like a hotchpotch, I don't worry about that too much, though of course there needs to be a little give and take.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Clerics would not feel anything since their permament buffball tends to keep them warm enough.

A sorceror or wizard might destroy the campfire, i mean a fire ball would just blow up everything, but he can just create a campsite by blowing up a tree to get a nice roaring fire going. Might need to use that sleep spell on the druid first though. If it were me i'd just summon a smaller fire elemental and tell him to stay put, double duty, he is going to keep ya warm, and he's already summoned if someone is stupid enough to attack.

But then as well any druid or ranger would be able to set up a campfire, as well as more non bookish classes.

I'd be most worried with any gnomes deciding to use powders or explosives to get the fire lit. But then the concussion everyone gets will make sure they get a good nights sleep even if they are not rested enough to get new spells.

I really don't think starting a fire should be a problem for these characters who are destined to kill a tarasque, if you can't get a fire lit you really should choose a safer career.

[Eguintir Eligard]

why are ppl going on about fireball like its the only fire spell?

flare, burning hands, flame arrow. All available sooner. Why the fixation? Lighting a fire has zero to do with this spell.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 21 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[The Fred]

I only mentioned Fireball because it's the one fire spell which definately wouldn't work - the PnP fluff states that it is an instantaneous flashfire like when you burn gas in a room, which doesn't set fire to anything and is gone right away. Really just a massive wave of intense heat than an actual fireball. That's why people don't get set on fire by it (supposedly). However, whilst I'm dubious that Flare could start a fire, I'm pretty sure Burning Hands could.

[Eguintir Eligard]

imagine doing a business deal with that handshake

[PJ156]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Clerics would not feel anything since their permament buffball tends to keep them warm enough.

I hear they can cast fireball as well. I don't know where would we be without them. 

I really don't think starting a fire should be a problem for these characters who are destined to kill a tarasque, if you can't get a fire lit you really should choose a safer career.

I would like to agree but I just sat through a meeting with four people who are supposed to be able to design ships. The detail is irrelevant but given the skill sets we had and the topic we were supposed to be discussing the analogy causes me shame.

IIRC this started with Dorateen wanting to give a bonus to certain classes. The lighting of the fire is not relevant here, it is a vehicle to allow classes with survival to shine for just a few mintues (stand back clerics there is another useful member in the party).

The fire is a placement to locate the party. Setting up a safe camp is about knowing the area, setting noise traps arranging watches and just knowing the right place to be. All those wonderful things we used to do and dicuss (at length) back when we had some dice and a piece of paper. The lighting of the fire I see as a symbol of this.

Fire 1 is a place where camping is possible if you have the right skills.

Fire 2 further down the line is an obvious safe place to rest.

Modifié par PJ156, 21 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[Dorateen]

PJ156 wrote...


IIRC this started with Dorateen wanting to give a bonus to certain classes. The lighting of the fire is not relevant here, it is a vehicle to allow classes with survival to shine for just a few mintues (stand back clerics there is another useful member in the party).

The fire is a placement to locate the party. Setting up a safe camp is about knowing the area, setting noise traps arranging watches and just knowing the right place to be. All those wonderful things we used to do and dicuss (at length) back when we had some dice and a piece of paper. The lighting of the fire I see as a symbol of this.

Fire 1 is a place where camping is possible if you have the right skills.

Fire 2 further down the line is an obvious safe place to rest.

Thank you.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Really, a wizard with a fire cantrip cant find a "way" to light the fire? Or perhaps... anyone with a fire dmg weapon?

This is why I dont do the "rest if you have this skill stuff". Far too many holes in it. Plus missing an entire rest is hugely imbalancing just because you dont have a skill. Unless the area is easy enough you dont really need the rest. Then it begs the question why is it there.


As someone who rarely questions game logic/rules (Im not that picky really) I immediately question why I need survival to do something that is a parlor trick for any caster...

It's actually something of an art lighting a campfire with wet wood. You want to get a slow burn going and adding alot of heat at once is not the best solution. I figure magic is pretty mush the equivalent of using gasoline, a bit too much and the usable fuel in wood buns off to quickly, too little and the fire won't start at all. Just because you posses the means to create fire doesn't mean you can make a good campfire. Of course you'd run into this same problem on the OM, but we don't have a minimum survival required to rest on the OM now do we? I'm not sure what point I was trying to make here though.

I am in favor of letting players put their skills to use whenever it's appropriate though, so I whould actually encourage the type of thing Dorateen was talking about. On the other hand Fred brings up a good point. Perhaps give the the Player the option to rest without the campfire if they couldn't get it going, but pose some sort of fatigue penalty or higher chance to get attacked during the night. Maybe rather or not you can get the fire going isn't the issue, maybe it's a matter of how safe you can make the camp to prevent attacks during the night? Just a thought.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Sounds like PJ, and Dorateens reply and Shauns final thoughts all seem to be echoing some magic source in this thread

Rather than saying a party rife with fire making ability cant light wood, it's better to reason that:

Is the survival skill used to explain how they can sleep with one eye open? Okay now we're talking

In most circles this means the ability to secure the camp, not light a fire.

Who was this wise man?

[M. Rieder]

If we use the SOZ system, then wouldn't survival skill determine the likelihood of encounter?


...we are still using SOZ rest system, right?

Modifié par M. Rieder, 22 mars 2011 - 02:01 .

[nicethugbert]

NEAT!, Dorateen. Although, I was thinking survival or class would allow the location or creation of a safe campsite rather than just lighting the fire. Hmm, maybe the safe spot is behind a water fall? Why would stinky Orcs think to look behind a waterfall unless there were tracks leading there? They might even get confused.