58 réponses à ce sujet

[LikeaLazyCatMatt]

I want to spare Loghain just because that is how my character is, giving people chances to redeem themselves.  But gahhhh I feel so bad when Alistair says that I've backstabbed him

[Face of Evil]

Well? Which is worth more to you? The redemption of a man responsible for countless crimes and who tried to kill you repeatedly? Or the friendship of your fellow Warden?

[Burningwolf]

Redemption in death is a valid choice.

[HolyAvenger]

I spare him when that's in character for my Wardens, and don't when it isn't. I tend not to let Alistair's whingefest influence me.

[nos_astra]

You are given very little information to work with when you have to make this choice. I have actually a hard time finding reasons to spare him that are not stretching it. It's very much in character for my characters to kill him. The world they are living in and what they've been doing over the past years doesn't really make them inclined to make the most generous leaps of faith. Death sometimes seems a suitable punishment.

[LobselVith8]

Much like the decision to spare Zevran and Sten, sparing Loghain is about giving him a chance to atone for his mistakes. He's the man who helped free Ferelden from Orlais, as Arl Eamon admits. While Alistair is a good friend, Duncan would have gained Loghain's assistance because they need as many Wardens as possible. I had a personality-hardened Alistair marry Anora while I spared Loghain. As the Doctor once said, "everybody lives."

[TJPags]

klarabella wrote...

You are given very little information to work with when you have to make this choice. I have actually a hard time finding reasons to spare him that are not stretching it. It's very much in character for my characters to kill him. The world they are living in and what they've been doing over the past years doesn't really make them inclined to make the most generous leaps of faith. Death sometimes seems a suitable punishment.

^^ this

One of the biggest misses in the game, if you ask me.  You don't know about the "warden who kills the AD dies" thing.  You and your team have been slicing through DS all game with no ill effects - nobody went ghoul on you.  RIordan, who gives you the "there are compelling reasons" line, is someone you just met a few minutes earlier, in a dungeon.  He kills a guard, gets dressed, gives you some info, then walks away from the fight.  In fact, if Alistair is not with you when you meet him, you have no confirmation he is who he claims to be.  You don't have to speak to him again before the Landsmeet.

At the same time, they don't give you as much info about Loghain as they could have.  He's portrayed as a pretty damn evil guy - even the scene where he leaves the Ostagar battle is labelled "the betrayal".  You see him browbeating nobles in Denerim, walking out of what could have been a Landsmeet, telling his daughter - the ostensible Queen he's regent for - to shut up and go away, etc.

While some people can absolutely make the choice to spare him, IMO the game sets it up for you to WANT to kill him.  And as klarabella said, to some people, death is a suitable punishment, so that's no obstacle for them.

[Malama]

My first warden was of the opinion that everything that could be done to defeat the blight and the Darkspawn should be done.
So he had no trouble choosing to spare Loghain, since that would be one more Gray warden.

[Adugan]

Id have liked to have him just because there was an obvious path of redemption for him, and his character would be quite interesting in the group dynamic. Too bad I couldnt keep both Alistair and him though.

And besides, Alistair killing him just seems to go against his character. He is usually merciful and jokes around, where as in the landsmeet he just slaughters the guy in cold blood in front of a crowd. I really didnt like that part, it was too forced and crude.

Modifié par Adugan, 06 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[Mariefoxprice83]

I think Alistair did it becasue of Duncan who he seems to have viewed as a surrogate father Possibly he felt obliged to avenge Cailan too but he definitely cared for Duncan more.

[rayvioletta]

I've done it a few ways over all my characters
Alistair killing Loghain was always my favourite solution on 'good' characters
one particularly evil character (the kind of bastard who made Isolde kill Connor) befriended and even romanced Alistair before she betrayed him by giving Anora the crown, sparing Loghain and executing Alistair. huge credit to the writers and voice actor for how he reacted to that (hint: he was not happy)
I even managed to have a character make (hardened) Alistair marry Anora and I spared Loghain (Alistair left the Wardens but accepted the throne, has to be hardened or he'll leave the kingdom altogether) and performed the Dark Ritual. Alistair wasn't happy but was a little more friendly again in post-coronation and seemed to have gotten over it by the time he greeted me in Awakening
I'm planning to have another character do similar to above but see how Alistair reacts to Loghain making the sacrifice instead of taking the Ritual. might do another to see if it's any different if Alistair is King without marrying Anora, possibly even with him marrying the Warden but that means doing yet another female human noble...

did I ever mention how much I love how replayable this game is?

[sylvanaerie]

That's the solution I think. Replay it. Do it one way the first time, (whatever way feels right for your PC) and then replay the game and choose different options the next time. There are 6 different origins, and so many different choices you can make in the game. Just enjoy the diversity and have fun!

[White_Buffalo94]

Just take this to heart:

Loghain, Fereldens greatest general, one of her most respected heroes since established, is guilty of treason, regicide, attempted murder of a noble, enslaving free citizens, and condoning the torture of at least a dozen + people. All of these are punishable by death
Now, one may argue if he really betrayed the army. Others say the battle would have been lost even if he joined. Supposition, in my opinion, is no reason to abandon your king nor your brothers in arms. If you find him with just cause to have abandonded the army, then consider the fact that he sent an assassin after someone of noble status and then denies it completely. This denial shows that he is willing to lie to save his ass and his reputation. Now it is completely your decision and this post may not seem that enlightening to you, because I am full of bias against Loghain, but if you are playing a "good" character, I recommend allowing Alistair to kill him. But again, it is based on what you feel is right. Would your character typically allow such a criminal to walk free and even, as I see it, take the credit for your work by sacrificing himself to destroy the Archdemon? Not me.

[LobselVith8]

Loghain didn't kill Cailan, and we have no idea if it was even plausible to follow through with the plan if the darkspawn army was impenetrable. Loghain wasn't wrong about Cailan, either. Cailan was planning to marry Empress Celene (RtO) that would have undone all the effort the Rebel Queen Moira and Prince Maric worked toward to see Ferelden free. It would have placed Ferelden back under Orlesian control. Cailan would have betrayed all of Ferelden with this act.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain didn't kill Cailan, and we have no idea if it was even plausible to follow through with the plan if the darkspawn army was impenetrable. Loghain wasn't wrong about Cailan, either. Cailan was planning to marry Empress Celene (RtO) that would have undone all the effort the Rebel Queen Moira and Prince Maric worked toward to see Ferelden free. It would have placed Ferelden back under Orlesian control. Cailan would have betrayed all of Ferelden with this act.

First bold - I know all about the planned Celene in Denerim plotline, but I'm not sure those letters we see in RtO (which is all that remains of that plotline in the game) actually confirm marriage ideas.  Yes, they are familiar, and yes, they can be interpreted that way, but is it 100%?

Second bold - that is speculation.

[Xilizhra]

Not necessarily; Cailan might have thought that that was the only way to have Orlais want Ferelden to survive, if he thought that Orlais would be too powerful to challenge directly and that another conquest was inevitable.

[Persephone]

Most of my Wardens who want to spare him aren't influenced by Alistair's hissy fit. No friend or lover of mine will corner me into killing someone so their revenge and bloodlust might be sated. It achieves nothing.

Play it how you feel it is right for YOUR Warden. To me pleasing Alistair is no argument in favor of killing a man in front of his daughter. Those of my Wardens that do, do so for different reasons. (And the regicide/traitor nonsense isn't among them) Might I also suggest to read the books to get a fuller understanding of his character?

But YAY, another Loghain debate. With the same old same old. The world surely is so much easier in black and white.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Loghain didn't kill Cailan, and we have no idea if it was even plausible to follow through with the plan if the darkspawn army was impenetrable. Loghain wasn't wrong about Cailan, either. Cailan was planning to marry Empress Celene (RtO) that would have undone all the effort the Rebel Queen Moira and Prince Maric worked toward to see Ferelden free. It would have placed Ferelden back under Orlesian control. Cailan would have betrayed all of Ferelden with this act.

First bold - I know all about the planned Celene in Denerim plotline, but I'm not sure those letters we see in RtO (which is all that remains of that plotline in the game) actually confirm marriage ideas.  Yes, they are familiar, and yes, they can be interpreted that way, but is it 100%?

Second bold - that is speculation.

1) Pretty much, yes.

2) Not speculation, it's the simplest logic. There is no way to absolve Cailan here. (In my eyes he is not only a traitor to a loyal wife but a traitor to his country and his father's legacy.)

[errant_knight]

Luckily, I've always agreed with Alistair at Landsmeet.

[LobselVith8]

Is it speculation to know gravity will let a ball fall to the ground, or that a powerful nation will have leverage over a less powerful nation if they were to merge? Orlais has a history of taking over other nations, including Ferelden. TJPags, what makes you assume that a marriage between King and Empress Celene wouldn't have ended with Orlais controlling Ferelden? He didn't even run his own nation as King.

[Xilizhra]

Possibly we can move the discussion about Cailan and Orlesian stuff to my own Cailan thread? Suffice it to say, it's entirely possible that Cailan thought (or had someone, likely Eamon, explain to him) that Ferelden could either join Orlais or be squashed by it again.

[LobselVith8]

Or Cailan cared about being called Emperor than the people who endured rape and subjugation under the Orlesians. Loghain had his reasons to distrust Orlesians, from The Stolen Throne and The Calling, the latter which explains his wariness of the Grey Wardens. I don't see a reason to kill Loghain when he wants to atone for his mistakes when people are just as willing to spare Sten and Zevran for their actions.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Is it speculation to know gravity will let a ball fall to the ground, or that a powerful nation will have leverage over a less powerful nation if they were to merge? Orlais has a history of taking over other nations, including Ferelden. TJPags, what makes you assume that a marriage between King and Empress Celene wouldn't have ended with Orlais controlling Ferelden? He didn't even run his own nation as King.

Marriages between sovereigns historically involved negotiations and contracts, which spell out the rights of each.  Not every marriage would give Caillan any actual right to rule in Orlais, and need not give Celene any such right in Ferelden.  It may well spell out exactly where any child would be raised, and need not even make the same child heir to both nations.  Any such contract (especially one dealing with heirs) would likely have to be approved by a Landsmeet, since they vote on who will rule (determining the heir in such a contract without their approval may even be illegal or non-binding on Ferelden).

Obviously, if there is no child of the union, the marriage need not give Orlais any rights at all, in the end.

So, any thoughts on what that marriage would mean is pure speculation.  We can all discuss what we think is loigical (and as a practical matter, I don't disagree that my opinion is that Orlais would end up controlling Ferelden) or likely or whatever, but it is nothing more than speculation.

As to the letters, here they are:

To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:
My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our countries.
My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to reinforce the Ferelden forces.
Sincerely, Empress Celene I

Your Majesty,
My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.
Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.
And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.
Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.
-- "A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan"

Cailan,


The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan[/i]"

They discuss an alliance, not a marriage.  The only thing dealing with a marriage is Eamon's letter, and it makes no mention of Celene.

[Xilizhra]

Don't get me wrong, I do spare Loghain. I love giving people second chances.

[Persephone]

errant_knight wrote...

Luckily, I've always agreed with Alistair at Landsmeet.

And luckily for me I usually agree with a Senior Warden.