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[Persephone]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Is it speculation to know gravity will let a ball fall to the ground, or that a powerful nation will have leverage over a less powerful nation if they were to merge? Orlais has a history of taking over other nations, including Ferelden. TJPags, what makes you assume that a marriage between King and Empress Celene wouldn't have ended with Orlais controlling Ferelden? He didn't even run his own nation as King.

This.

Never mind that most of the nobles and the people would NEVER stand for such an alliance. The brat is risking tearing Ferelden apart for an alliance with the very country that wronged his people in so many ways. Despicable.

[sylvanaerie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or Cailan cared about being called Emperor than the people who endured rape and subjugation under the Orlesians. Loghain had his reasons to distrust Orlesians, from The Stolen Throne and The Calling, the latter which explains his wariness of the Grey Wardens. I don't see a reason to kill Loghain when he wants to atone for his mistakes when people are just as willing to spare Sten and Zevran for their actions.

Except at the point you have to make that choice (to kill him or not to) he isn't repentent of anything he's done and continuing to lie about even being involved in any of it, passing the blame onto Howe, The Grey Wardens, Cailan, Eamon, the Orlesians anyone he can think of to blame.
He only expresses regret when it comes time to slay the Archdemon.
So the PC has only his actions previously in the game and his actions at the Landsmeet to go by, not being able to read his mind and tell what's going on in there. 
Then you have to take a leap of faith (In a man who has up to that point proven a liar and untrustworthy) that he wants to make amends for what he has done.  He even insists you are STILL wrong and he was right afterward in the camp when you do recruit him.
So no, it's still a hard choice to make. Personally I kill him, I see no reason to spare him, but i can see another point of view where another person might.  My one Redemption playthrough my PC was nucking futs.  That's the only way i was able to justify letting him live.  There are certainly other reasons someone else might want to, but seeing that he wants redemption (when up to that point he has given ZERO evidence of feeling any remorse for his actions and has lied through his teeth at the Landsmeet) is metagaming IMO since the PC isn't a mind reader.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or Cailan cared about being called Emperor than the people who endured rape and subjugation under the Orlesians. Loghain had his reasons to distrust Orlesians, from The Stolen Throne and The Calling, the latter which explains his wariness of the Grey Wardens. I don't see a reason to kill Loghain when he wants to atone for his mistakes when people are just as willing to spare Sten and Zevran for their actions.

Except at the point you have to make that choice (to kill him or not to) he isn't repentent of anything he's done and continuing to lie about even being involved in any of it, passing the blame onto Howe, The Grey Wardens, Cailan, Eamon, the Orlesians anyone he can think of to blame.
He only expresses regret when it comes time to slay the Archdemon.

Having spared him many times and having used every topic with him I can safely say that saying that he only shows remorse on the roof of Fort Drakon is completely and utterly false. I haven't heard him blame Howe for anything. He is right when it comes to Cailan, Eamon and the Orlesians. And once that decision arrives, he remains silent, not blaming anyone, not asking for anything, not groveling or begging. (Huge plus in book, I'd never be able to muster such dignity and acceptance, never mind being able to calm his frantic child instead) 

Never mind that he isn't "lying through his teeth", he actually BELIEVES what he is saying and with good reason. (He is wrong, yes, but there is no malicious intent ala Howe)

Modifié par Persephone, 06 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[MCPOWill]

Adugan wrote...

Id have liked to have him just because there was an obvious path of redemption for him, and his character would be quite interesting in the group dynamic. Too bad I couldnt keep both Alistair and him though.

And besides, Alistair killing him just seems to go against his character. He is usually merciful and jokes around, where as in the landsmeet he just slaughters the guy in cold blood in front of a crowd. I really didnt like that part, it was too forced and crude.

I feel Alistair killing Loghain is even more in character with Alistair then it would be with you GW (most of the time, that is). Because Alistair lost all his friends and fellow GWs as well as his mentor Duncan in the battle for Ostagar, so for Alistair to wish to avenge his fellow GWs and Duncan (or for his own personal revenge, which I'd doubt to be the case) by wanting to kill or execute Loghain isn't such a stretch. In fact, it is a driving motive for Alistair, Hardened or not.

[sylvanaerie]

You missed my point entirely, Persephone, which is UP TO THE Landsmeet, he has shown NO remorse for his actions. Its up to the PC to make a leap of faith to spare him.
He does lie at the Landsmeet. He says he never sent Jowan to poison Eamon which is a FLAT out lie. He accuses the Grey Warden of being an Orlesian when HELLO she/he is either a Ferelden Noble, A dwarf for pity's sake or an elf or a mage from Ferelden's own circle.
He disavows any knowlege of Howe's actions (when his OWN Lieutenant) takes you to Fort Drakon for torture/death. If you bring up his little illegal slave trade actions he doesn't express any remorse for it, justifying it by saying 'he will answer to the Maker'. Isn't this entire Landsmeet for the purpose of determining if he is fit to be regent in the first place?
And you may say "well he was lying because he was trying to save his own ass at the Landsmeet" but that still says to me he has no remorse for what he has done, and is lying about his actions and involvements.
It does take a leap of faith at that moment of a massive dose of hero worship for his past, or a PC who is so ruthless they will stop the blight at any cost not saying any of these are bad reasons but to claim "he is showing remorse at the Landsmeet" isn't true either.

[LobselVith8]

It doesn't take hero worship, sylvanaerie, but giving Loghain a chance to redeem himself for his mistakes. When you recruit him, you get to see that Loghain is a complex person who is dealing with his own demons, and not some black hat cardboard cutout villain.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

You missed my point entirely, Persephone, which is UP TO THE Landsmeet, he has shown NO remorse for his actions. Its up to the PC to make a leap of faith to spare him.
He does lie at the Landsmeet. He says he never sent Jowan to poison Eamon which is a FLAT out lie. He accuses the Grey Warden of being an Orlesian when HELLO she/he is either a Ferelden Noble, A dwarf for pity's sake or an elf or a mage from Ferelden's own circle.
He disavows any knowlege of Howe's actions (when his OWN Lieutenant) takes you to Fort Drakon for torture/death. If you bring up his little illegal slave trade actions he doesn't express any remorse for it, justifying it by saying 'he will answer to the Maker'. Isn't this entire Landsmeet for the purpose of determining if he is fit to be regent in the first place?
And you may say "well he was lying because he was trying to save his own ass at the Landsmeet" but that still says to me he has no remorse for what he has done, and is lying about his actions and involvements.
It does take a leap of faith at that moment of a massive dose of hero worship for his past, or a PC who is so ruthless they will stop the blight at any cost not saying any of these are bad reasons but to claim "he is showing remorse at the Landsmeet" isn't true either.

I don't care about showing remorse AT the Landsmeet, as the Landsmeet is no arena to show remorse or regrets. That's not how politics work. Ever. You said he never shows remorse until Fort Drakon, which is completely untrue. Never mind that most of my Wardens don't care for remorse all that much, as remorse has never undone anything. His actions and words past recruitment mean a whole lot more.

He accuses the Wardens of being in Orlais' pocket and given "The Calling", I don't blame him one bit.

Political maneuvres to save one's life don't exclude the ability to feel regrets or remorse. He clearly isn't enjoying what he feels he HAS to do.

As for the slavery, he mentions his regrets in a telling, if not obvious way.

If a Senior Grey Warden can take such a "leap of faith" (Never mind one of the victims of said treatment), so can my Warden. (If that were the only reason and it isn't)

[sylvanaerie]

Yes Lob but at the moment of the Landsmeet when you have to make that decision you don't see any of that. That all comes AFTER you make that choice. To spare him saying "he wants to redeem himself" means that your PC either reads minds or you are metagaming or you have to take a leap of faith to believe he does. He shows ZERO remorse before and at the Landsmeet.
There are other reasons to spare him of course, I couldn't cover all of them because I don't feel them.

[Persephone]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't take hero worship, sylvanaerie, but giving Loghain a chance to redeem himself for his mistakes. When you recruit him, you get to see that Loghain is a complex person who is dealing with his own demons, and not some black hat cardboard cutout villain.

This is one of the "good" reasons to make that decision, yes. It takes immense strength of character to forgive your enemies. And it takes brilliance to turn them into allies, someone once said. And I agree.

[Xilizhra]

It's true; it feels like supporting someone who (by proxy) just had you tortured is an indication that your opinion is fairly unbiased.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Yes Lob but at the moment of the Landsmeet when you have to make that decision you don't see any of that. That all comes AFTER you make that choice. To spare him saying "he wants to redeem himself" means that your PC either reads minds or you are metagaming or you have to take a leap of faith to believe he does. He shows ZERO remorse before and at the Landsmeet.
There are other reasons to spare him of course, I couldn't cover all of them because I don't feel them.

I see hints of him being weighed down and I also see hints of remorse. They're subtle but they are there. In the long run it doesn't matter because personal feelings must take second place in such a crisis.

[Xilizhra]

In the long run it doesn't matter because personal feelings must take second place in such a crisis.

Why do you then add "killing Loghain in front of Anora is horrible" as a reason not to do it? Or are morality and personal feelings different here?

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the long run it doesn't matter because personal feelings must take second place in such a crisis.

Why do you then add "killing Loghain in front of Anora is horrible" as a reason not to do it? Or are morality and personal feelings different here?

I add it because it plays a part, though doesn't prevent me from executing Loghain on its own. I hate the fact that it has to be done like that though. Personally I think it's inhuman.

[Xilizhra]

Well, that makes sense.

I've never seen that scene myself, but I've heard that the blood splatter is... unpleasant.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, that makes sense.

I've never seen that scene myself, but I've heard that the blood splatter is... unpleasant.

Let's just say that the first time I saw it (I had Alistair duel him and didn't know about him being recruitable) I felt sick to my stomach.

[Xilizhra]

Interesting. Consider the blood that gets flung around all over the place in the game, I doubt it's because of the intrinsic ickiness... is it because of a personal experience that resonates with you, mostly?

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

You missed my point entirely, Persephone, which is UP TO THE Landsmeet, he has shown NO remorse for his actions. Its up to the PC to make a leap of faith to spare him.
He does lie at the Landsmeet. He says he never sent Jowan to poison Eamon which is a FLAT out lie. He accuses the Grey Warden of being an Orlesian when HELLO she/he is either a Ferelden Noble, A dwarf for pity's sake or an elf or a mage from Ferelden's own circle.
He disavows any knowlege of Howe's actions (when his OWN Lieutenant) takes you to Fort Drakon for torture/death. If you bring up his little illegal slave trade actions he doesn't express any remorse for it, justifying it by saying 'he will answer to the Maker'. Isn't this entire Landsmeet for the purpose of determining if he is fit to be regent in the first place?
And you may say "well he was lying because he was trying to save his own ass at the Landsmeet" but that still says to me he has no remorse for what he has done, and is lying about his actions and involvements.
It does take a leap of faith at that moment of a massive dose of hero worship for his past, or a PC who is so ruthless they will stop the blight at any cost not saying any of these are bad reasons but to claim "he is showing remorse at the Landsmeet" isn't true either.

I don't care about showing remorse AT the Landsmeet, as the Landsmeet is no arena to show remorse or regrets. That's not how politics work. Ever. You said he never shows remorse until Fort Drakon, which is completely untrue. Never mind that most of my Wardens don't care for remorse all that much, as remorse has never undone anything. His actions and words past recruitment mean a whole lot more.

He accuses the Wardens of being in Orlais' pocket and given "The Calling", I don't blame him one bit.

Political maneuvres to save one's life don't exclude the ability to feel regrets or remorse. He clearly isn't enjoying what he feels he HAS to do.

As for the slavery, he mentions his regrets in a telling, if not obvious way.

If a Senior Grey Warden can take such a "leap of faith" (Never mind one of the victims of said treatment), so can my Warden. (If that were the only reason and it isn't)

Yea, you know my opinion on this, Persephone.

What he says and how he acts afterwards (and I've spared him enough to have gone through all the discussions with him) comes late for my sense of justice.  The decision what to do with him is made at the Landsmeet.  The only regrets or remorse he shows there are his comment about the slaves, and his speech on his knees after you win the duel.  And I've always found his reasoning there odd.

My opinion is still that they dropped the ball with this.  They really didn't give you enough in game reason, IMO, to spare him.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

You missed my point entirely, Persephone, which is UP TO THE Landsmeet, he has shown NO remorse for his actions. Its up to the PC to make a leap of faith to spare him.
He does lie at the Landsmeet. He says he never sent Jowan to poison Eamon which is a FLAT out lie. He accuses the Grey Warden of being an Orlesian when HELLO she/he is either a Ferelden Noble, A dwarf for pity's sake or an elf or a mage from Ferelden's own circle.
He disavows any knowlege of Howe's actions (when his OWN Lieutenant) takes you to Fort Drakon for torture/death. If you bring up his little illegal slave trade actions he doesn't express any remorse for it, justifying it by saying 'he will answer to the Maker'. Isn't this entire Landsmeet for the purpose of determining if he is fit to be regent in the first place?
And you may say "well he was lying because he was trying to save his own ass at the Landsmeet" but that still says to me he has no remorse for what he has done, and is lying about his actions and involvements.
It does take a leap of faith at that moment of a massive dose of hero worship for his past, or a PC who is so ruthless they will stop the blight at any cost not saying any of these are bad reasons but to claim "he is showing remorse at the Landsmeet" isn't true either.

I don't care about showing remorse AT the Landsmeet, as the Landsmeet is no arena to show remorse or regrets. That's not how politics work. Ever. You said he never shows remorse until Fort Drakon, which is completely untrue. Never mind that most of my Wardens don't care for remorse all that much, as remorse has never undone anything. His actions and words past recruitment mean a whole lot more.

He accuses the Wardens of being in Orlais' pocket and given "The Calling", I don't blame him one bit.

Political maneuvres to save one's life don't exclude the ability to feel regrets or remorse. He clearly isn't enjoying what he feels he HAS to do.

As for the slavery, he mentions his regrets in a telling, if not obvious way.

If a Senior Grey Warden can take such a "leap of faith" (Never mind one of the victims of said treatment), so can my Warden. (If that were the only reason and it isn't)

Yea, you know my opinion on this, Persephone.

What he says and how he acts afterwards (and I've spared him enough to have gone through all the discussions with him) comes late for my sense of justice.  The decision what to do with him is made at the Landsmeet.  The only regrets or remorse he shows there are his comment about the slaves, and his speech on his knees after you win the duel.  And I've always found his reasoning there odd.

My opinion is still that they dropped the ball with this.  They really didn't give you enough in game reason, IMO, to spare him.

And it's perfectly within your rights to feel that way. I thought the writing there was completely blah and rushed. But you could tell that once the Landsmeet was called, Bioware was rushing things. (Numerous bugs and glitches, huge drop in writing quality etc.)

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting. Consider the blood that gets flung around all over the place in the game, I doubt it's because of the intrinsic ickiness... is it because of a personal experience that resonates with you, mostly?

Yes. I have watched a parent die myself. (Of cancer) It is horrible. And I wasn't smeared in my mother's blood either. The idea of it alone still makes me shudder. I hate that scene intensely. If I do execute Loghain, I thank the Maker for the Escape button.

[Xilizhra]

That does sound awful...

I suppose it's a good thing that even my HN Warden feels that her need for vengeance was satisfied by killing Howe. Anora's presence does seem to be a factor that not many consider.

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

That does sound awful...

I suppose it's a good thing that even my HN Warden feels that her need for vengeance was satisfied by killing Howe. Anora's presence does seem to be a factor that not many consider.

Beyond that, some enjoy that she is there. Or shrug her off by saying "Well, she could have stepped back or left." I kid you not.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

You missed my point entirely, Persephone, which is UP TO THE Landsmeet, he has shown NO remorse for his actions. Its up to the PC to make a leap of faith to spare him.
He does lie at the Landsmeet. He says he never sent Jowan to poison Eamon which is a FLAT out lie. He accuses the Grey Warden of being an Orlesian when HELLO she/he is either a Ferelden Noble, A dwarf for pity's sake or an elf or a mage from Ferelden's own circle.
He disavows any knowlege of Howe's actions (when his OWN Lieutenant) takes you to Fort Drakon for torture/death. If you bring up his little illegal slave trade actions he doesn't express any remorse for it, justifying it by saying 'he will answer to the Maker'. Isn't this entire Landsmeet for the purpose of determining if he is fit to be regent in the first place?
And you may say "well he was lying because he was trying to save his own ass at the Landsmeet" but that still says to me he has no remorse for what he has done, and is lying about his actions and involvements.
It does take a leap of faith at that moment of a massive dose of hero worship for his past, or a PC who is so ruthless they will stop the blight at any cost not saying any of these are bad reasons but to claim "he is showing remorse at the Landsmeet" isn't true either.

I don't care about showing remorse AT the Landsmeet, as the Landsmeet is no arena to show remorse or regrets. That's not how politics work. Ever. You said he never shows remorse until Fort Drakon, which is completely untrue. Never mind that most of my Wardens don't care for remorse all that much, as remorse has never undone anything. His actions and words past recruitment mean a whole lot more.

He accuses the Wardens of being in Orlais' pocket and given "The Calling", I don't blame him one bit.

Political maneuvres to save one's life don't exclude the ability to feel regrets or remorse. He clearly isn't enjoying what he feels he HAS to do.

As for the slavery, he mentions his regrets in a telling, if not obvious way.

If a Senior Grey Warden can take such a "leap of faith" (Never mind one of the victims of said treatment), so can my Warden. (If that were the only reason and it isn't)

Yea, you know my opinion on this, Persephone.

What he says and how he acts afterwards (and I've spared him enough to have gone through all the discussions with him) comes late for my sense of justice.  The decision what to do with him is made at the Landsmeet.  The only regrets or remorse he shows there are his comment about the slaves, and his speech on his knees after you win the duel.  And I've always found his reasoning there odd.

My opinion is still that they dropped the ball with this.  They really didn't give you enough in game reason, IMO, to spare him.

And it's perfectly within your rights to feel that way. I thought the writing there was completely blah and rushed. But you could tell that once the Landsmeet was called, Bioware was rushing things. (Numerous bugs and glitches, huge drop in writing quality etc.)

True.  Reminds me of a Dean Koontz novel that way.

[Costin_Razvan]

Shrug...never saw a reason to kill him myself, and I never cared that much of Anora's feelings or whatever Loghain did for Fereldan in the past that might justify him. I saw him a tool to be used for the Grey Wardens and I took him as such, with respect to his military skills which I felt the Wardens would need more then some whimpering bastard of a noble.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mars 2011 - 06:13 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Shrug...never saw a reason to kill him myself, and I never cared that much of Anora's feelings or whatever Loghain did for Fereldan in the past that might justify him. I saw him a tool to be used for the Grey Wardens and I took him as such, with respect to his military skills which I felt the Wardens would need more then some whimpering bastard of a noble.

And that's another good reason.

[LobselVith8]

I think they shrug it off because they don't get to know Anora, and there's not as much time to know her as Alistair or the others. I saw her as a good person. I think Anora and Alistair do a lot of good together as King and Queen, and Loghain does live up to his potential as a Grey Warden.